Going slowly in a Caterham

[BertBert]

I consider the 6" ZZS (for example) to be fairly low grip and great fun with circa 135bhp
Bert

battered said:

Not sure I've ever been in a "low grip" Caterham. They all go round corners on rails unless fitted with Ditchfinders pumped up to 30psi.

[Sbend]

"TimAla"Nice post.

[fergus]

TimAla said:

I've recently bought a Caterham, wishing to re-live the joys (and forgetting the rest) of my twin-cam in the 70s. Ignoring the passage of 40 years and buying the car from a photo was probably never going to end well, and suffice to say I have found the car a struggle. I suppose I was a bit shocked to find a vehicle produced nowadays and purported suitable for road use was such a pig to drive. The power isn't an issue; I'm used to powerful cars. The 'basic' nature of the vehicle, the trials of ingress/egress and melting trousers and fried shins was all expected. The child and dog only needed to burn themselves once; that silver thing is hot and they're not stupid.

It is the fact that poodling around at low speeds is really unpleasant, a fact that has prompted this thread. With backfiring, drivetrain clunking, horrendous gearbox noises, stuttering, kangarooing and general commotion, you do have wonder whether it is a suitable daily driver. I put it away in October for a re-think, and reverted to my 'normal' car for the winter, which I had not intended to do.

A New Year, a New Hope. I've basically decided to man-up, and have taken the car by the scruff and impressed on it who's in charge. I'm driving it, not the other way around. Has this changed things? Yes, radically. I now have positive feelings, and I just power through the negatives, literally and figuratively. If I'd wanted a pussy car I'd have bought something else. The biggest problem is remaining entirely legal at all times; I've never incurred a motoring violation and don't wish to start now. Talk about dreaming the impossible dream.

Not quite my sentiments....

Imagine taking your daily driver for a "spirited cross country drive" (decent roads, light traffic, etc, etc). My frustration lies with the fact that in the Caterham, I doubt the same journey, at the same time could be made much faster. I've raced both cars and bikes, so "taking it by the scruff of the neck" isn't an issue. It may just be me getting older and having the nagging doubt of "social responsibility" in the back of my mind, rather than driving like an aggressive muppet, carving through the "traffic".

[bcr5784]

fergus said:

Not quite my sentiments....

Imagine taking your daily driver for a "spirited cross country drive" (decent roads, light traffic, etc, etc). My frustration lies with the fact that in the Caterham, I doubt the same journey, at the same time could be made much faster. I've raced both cars and bikes, so "taking it by the scruff of the neck" isn't an issue. It may just be me getting older and having the nagging doubt of "social responsibility" in the back of my mind, rather than driving like an aggressive muppet, carving through the "traffic".

I think it depends on where you live - in Scotland or Wales there are roads where you can get on with it without being aggressive or rude, but in the south of England much less so. It was different 20/30 years ago, but now, around where I live, you need a bike.

[bcr5784]

Maybe I'm getting old too because coming back to trying Caterhams again after a 20 year gap, I too was surprised how unsophisticated they felt - the ride felt much harder and there was more vibration than I remembered. Some were noticeably "clunky" at low speed.

I'm not convinced I'm looking back with rose tinted spectacles, because my first impression 20 years ago was how surprisingly sophisticated it felt - I had dismissed 7s as geriatric in favour of Elans and Europas when I was young - but was shocked to find how impressive my live axled Kent engine car was. I never found low speed manners an issue.

I had an Elise soon after which didn't recalibrate my thinking at all. More practical certainly, but actually more clunky and I always preferred the 7 as a driving machine.

So have 7s gone backwards in some respects - I certainly found a 360 a disappointment at low speeds (albeit it had very few miles on the clock)?

Edited by bcr5784 on Saturday 20th May 13:29

[ForzaGilles]

upsidedownmark said:

ForzaGilles said:

Who mentioned driving at 10/10ths on the road?. My point is, the opportunities to drive a Caterham at an 'enjoyable' speed on the road are few. It's almost like getting the 'perfect storm' - a clear-ish decent road in nice weather.

Maybe the whole 'ridiculous and jiggly' novelty value of a Caterham wore off a long time ago. To me they just beg to be driven quickly. A poor ride, limited practicality and a quirky character can be a bit tedious when you're stuck in traffic doing 40 and it's starting to rain....

And my point was that if you need to drive 'fast' to get enjoyment, you're pretty much screwed, whatever the car (note I said *way short* of 10/10ths).

IMHO the caterham is more involving, even at low speed than anything else I've driven. I utterly fail to understand how replacing it with a 'faster' car solves the problem, but as I said YMMV - no need to get on your high horse.

Edited by upsidedownmark on Thursday 18th May 17:52

The Caterham was R400 spec, and was quicker than the 996. It's not about the speed, it's about the usability...

[Equus]

bcr5784 said:

So have 7s gone backwards in some respects - I certainly found a 360 a disappointment at low speeds (albeit it had very few miles on the clock)?

In terms of road manners, yes, absolutely.

Track days didn't really exist in the early days of Caterham, and most Sevens came in a spec suited to road use... if you wanted to go hillclimbing, you then modified the car to suit (and then bhed about how pointy, harsh and unpleasant it had become for road use, all for the sake of beating the competition). The standard cars ran narrower, taller profile tyres, more compliant suspension, synchromesh gearboxes straight out of family Fords, and 2-valve per cylinder engines (for the most part) that were not especially powerful but relatively torquey at low revs.

You can still buy a Caterham that ticks most of the same boxes - the Seven 160 - but everybody goes for the higher spec models because they've convinced themselves that faster+more expensive+more shiny bits = better, when for road use it ain't necessarily so. I've said many times that the closest car you'd find to the character of the original Lotus Seven, ironically, is now the Westfield XI, and it's a truly wonderful device for pottering along country lanes in.

It's a basic truth that the better a car (any car) is on the track, the more unpleasant it will be to drive on the road.

Most of Caterham's current sales are for track oriented models... to paraphrase Joseph de Maistre, every buyer gets the Caterham they deserve.

[coppice]

I tend to agree - but the biggest change of all is that , whilst a Seven was raw and basic in the 60s , so was almost everything else, with the likes of MGs being pretty crude in terms of creature comforts and road manners. But in a digital world the Seven has become an analogue device whose character is now far , far removed from anything else you can buy (except Westfields etc ). I'm sure many new Seven owners who have graduated from rocket shopper hatchbacks and the like wonder what the hell they've done when they first drive this pricey little anachronism.

My Seven is an R400 but , short ratios apart, it still more closely resembles other Sevens I've been in (from a '69 S3, ;71 S4 to a 2015 Sigma and various Ks ) than anything else but I am probably inured to its faults after ten years ownership .

[Eugene7]

I think this is actually more of an issue as to what 7 you have...
I have an Ital live axle, 2L 210bhp Zetec, with 5 speed box.
I can potter around town at silly slow speeds with no issues at all - no drive-line shunt; no kangarooing; no axle/diff noise; no nothing...
I can do most of this in 3rd gear too (other than when pulling away from stop).

I borrowed a mate's R500, and it was a bh!
Loads of mechanical noise, and hated being driven on small throttle openings at low speeds...

[JustCallMeMac]

Eugene7 said:

I think this is actually more of an issue as to what 7 you have...
I have an Ital live axle, 2L 210bhp Zetec, with 5 speed box.
I can potter around town at silly slow speeds with no issues at all - no drive-line shunt; no kangarooing; no axle/diff noise; no nothing...
I can do most of this in 3rd gear too (other than when pulling away from stop).

I borrowed a mate's R500, and it was a bh!
Loads of mechanical noise, and hated being driven on small throttle openings at low speeds...

I can echo this entirely.

Had a 210bhp Zetec Westfield on Jenvey TB's mated to an SPC rocket-ratio Type 9 (5spd) and with a Subaru diff and I could drive it easily and smoothly at any speed, with next to no mechanical noise. Was the perfect road and track car and I regret selling her on.

Now have an R500D and it's certainly a bit noisier and needs a lot of throttle and clutch control at low speeds / revs, which makes it a complete PITA in slow moving traffic and this despite a remap by 'the two Steves' and using a new MBE 9A4 ecu. (A characteristic of RBTB's?). Get rolling though and the car is absolutely epic and all is quickly forgiven and forgotten!

So going back to Track n Road to see if they can smooth things out a bit.

[fergus]

JustCallMeMac said:

Eugene7 said:

I think this is actually more of an issue as to what 7 you have...
I have an Ital live axle, 2L 210bhp Zetec, with 5 speed box.
I can potter around town at silly slow speeds with no issues at all - no drive-line shunt; no kangarooing; no axle/diff noise; no nothing...
I can do most of this in 3rd gear too (other than when pulling away from stop).

I borrowed a mate's R500, and it was a bh!
Loads of mechanical noise, and hated being driven on small throttle openings at low speeds...

I can echo this entirely.

Had a 210bhp Zetec Westfield on Jenvey TB's mated to an SPC rocket-ratio Type 9 (5spd) and with a Subaru diff and I could drive it easily and smoothly at any speed, with next to no mechanical noise. Was the perfect road and track car and I regret selling her on.

Now have an R500D and it's certainly a bit noisier and needs a lot of throttle and clutch control at low speeds / revs, which makes it a complete PITA in slow moving traffic and this despite a remap by 'the two Steves' and using a new MBE 9A4 ecu. (A characteristic of RBTB's?). Get rolling though and the car is absolutely epic and all is quickly forgiven and forgotten!

So going back to Track n Road to see if they can smooth things out a bit.

My point wasn't relating the semantics of "how well mapped my car is", etc, but more the 'concept' of a 7 on modern roads. Given the nature of the car (whether 130 or 300hp), I find it a frustrating experience driving on the roads. The car is very single purpose. Think Radical on a normal track (not test) day, and Radical owners who don't race probably have similar feelings.

[coppice]

.......it can be frustrating , but I certainly wouldn't give it up . I've done 3- 500mile A and B road days many times and enjoyed every second. Of course it's a PITA on bumps and in the wet , but the joy it delivers when it isn't makes up for any shortcoming - and mine is not a touring spec car really- RBTB R400D six speed . I used to do lots of track days but after having established firstly that I could go faster than I'd thought possible and secondly that my 'fast' was any decent track drivers brisk (at best ) I decided that another season of £250 days would translate into long solo road trips .

[Eugene7]

Maybe I should have also added that I've done over 300,000 miles in Eugene...
All but a few 100 on normal roads.
In all weather conditions, on all types of roads.
Never an issue...
She drive perfectly, unless I unleash the loud pedal... but I control that!

[craig2003]

I reckon it's a lot down to location, I have covered 7500 miles in a year in my aeroscreened 620R but live in Inverness with some great and quiet roads in pretty much every direction.
The only properly miserable drive was last week coming back from Knockhill. Nice and dry at the track turned in to lightning 30 miles away and poured down for the next 70 miles or so, it was not a pleasant place to be at all. Almost every other mile done has been brilliant.

Edited by craig2003 on Tuesday 30th May 08:17

[Chainsaw Rebuild]

Next weekend you could get up really early and take it out. There will be no traffic and you can make the most of things. If you don't like it after that then perhaps change the car.

[Equus]

Chainsaw Rebuild said:

Next weekend you could get up really early and take it out. There will be no traffic and you can make the most of things.

You gotta be extra careful of the flying cows at that time of the morning, though, so you still can't drive quickly - ask Sbend.

[BertBert]

Wow, the sound of a broken record, awesome

[Equus]

BertBert said:

Wow, the sound of a broken record, awesome

OK, but serious point: early morning blats are:
a) When you're most likely to encounter large wildlife on the road; some of which can kill you if you're going too fast to avoid hitting it.
b) The time of day when some serious cyclists go out, for the same reason: to avoid traffic. See point A, with the added bonus of a prison sentence if you happen to hit the cyclist.
c) Pretty bloody antisocial. People live in rural areas too.It may surprise you to find that they're not keen on fkwits with loud exhausts blaring past them at full chat at 4:30 in the morning.

There is no good time to drive at the sort of speeds that a Caterham is capable of, on UK roads.

Edited by Equus on Monday 12th June 07:32

[justleanitupabit]

Well that relates to just about to any 'fun' vehicle on the British roads then doesn't it?

[Equus]

justleanitupabit said:

Well that relates to just about to any 'fun' vehicle on the British roads then doesn't it?

Depends what you call fun.

Stuff like old Minis, 60's generation Lotuses, MG Midgets, etc.; even old or 160 Caterhams, or the ubiquitous MX5, are fun at relatively sensible road speeds. More performance than that is becoming increasingly redundant, unless its merely a reserve to ensure that your everyday transport is relaxed and unstressed in all situations.

Ultimately there's only so much 'fun' you can have in high performance cars on public roads without causing nuisance or putting others at risk, which is both irresponsible and illegal.