Discussion
I'm at the fortunate point of buying my first Caterham and not wanting to regret the model choice wondered if I could ask advice on which one is potentially the best to go for? I'm fortunate to live close to a main dealer and have had brief drives in a 270S a 310S and a 420R over the last couple of months. Of the three the 310S was my preferred as I found the 420R almost too fast on the country roads and therefore ultimately less enjoyable. As I'd like to mix my driving between road and track days I'm leaning towards a 310R but haven't had chance to drive that model in the R configuration and wonder how much difference I would expect from it compared to the S? It was interesting talking to the salesman whose personal advice was to start with a lower powered model, even if I was looking to do lots track days, as this was a much better way to learn the car and improve overall driving ability rather than convincing yourself you were up there by having a 420R and simply being one of the fastest cars on the track which seemed to make sense....
The age old Question of engine choice!
As always it comes down to what you want to do with the car, and how long you will keep it.
Have you tried the 360 model with the 2.0 Duratec engine at all?
I built a Superlight Twenty last year, and whilst it was a very light and nimble car, I found that the 1.6 engine very lacking in mid range and tourque, so for my driving style it did not have enough power for track days.
Personally as I previously had an R500 Duratec, I wanted to go back to those levels of power, so the next logical step up for me was the 620R I now own.
There is also a lot of quite easy tuning via engine upgrades on the 2.0 Duratec, so it has lots of potential to keep you amused when upgrades are something you have the itch to do!
Good luck and try the 360 to see what you think.
As always it comes down to what you want to do with the car, and how long you will keep it.
Have you tried the 360 model with the 2.0 Duratec engine at all?
I built a Superlight Twenty last year, and whilst it was a very light and nimble car, I found that the 1.6 engine very lacking in mid range and tourque, so for my driving style it did not have enough power for track days.
Personally as I previously had an R500 Duratec, I wanted to go back to those levels of power, so the next logical step up for me was the 620R I now own.
There is also a lot of quite easy tuning via engine upgrades on the 2.0 Duratec, so it has lots of potential to keep you amused when upgrades are something you have the itch to do!
Good luck and try the 360 to see what you think.
Sounds like good advice to me. If the 420 is too much, and perhaps you're wondering if the 310 is enough, trying a 360 seems a must. The question is whether upgradeitus will strike, with a 310 your looking at £5-10k to go up to 175/200bhp, Duratecs will be cheaper to release the same power (with more torque) or will provide bigger figures for the same £. As for S or R, I'd decide what bits you actually want then see whether it's cheaper to start with the S or R pack. You need an LSD btw, no debate..!
I have found out that my R500 has a real split personality, it can be as docile as you want if you keep the revs below 5k and will behave much like any other mid range caterham the when you are in the mood raise the revs and get past 8k and the whole world goes into reverse! A bit like when the millennium falcon goes into hyperspace ! If you have the funds spend the lot on the 420 !
"The question is whether upgradeitus will strike, with a 310 your looking at £5-10k to go up to 175/200bhp"
Before committing to a Duratec, test drive a tuned Sigma Ti-VCT. Up to 23kgs lighter than the Duratec and this dramatically effects to handling and driving experience.
Our advice, up to 200bhp, go Sigma, over 200bhp go Duratec.
Regards
SKC
Before committing to a Duratec, test drive a tuned Sigma Ti-VCT. Up to 23kgs lighter than the Duratec and this dramatically effects to handling and driving experience.
Our advice, up to 200bhp, go Sigma, over 200bhp go Duratec.
Regards
SKC
I built my R400D in 2015. First Caterham and used on road and TDs.
I have never felt it was too fast for the road. You can't drive it to its full potential on the road but it's easy to control and great fun even changing up at the first shift light (5K). The 6 speed adds to that though I appreciate its weakness for long distance stuff, which I don't do.
On track it's not too fast at all. There are times when more power would be fun. Took me a year to upgrade to RBTBs for a little more power.
In hindsight I'd have built a more powerful 7 if there'd been a kit but there wasn't. Self build was important to me as is keeping the car I've built. I wouldn't want one with less performance unless it was to use purely for on road wandering.
I have never felt it was too fast for the road. You can't drive it to its full potential on the road but it's easy to control and great fun even changing up at the first shift light (5K). The 6 speed adds to that though I appreciate its weakness for long distance stuff, which I don't do.
On track it's not too fast at all. There are times when more power would be fun. Took me a year to upgrade to RBTBs for a little more power.
In hindsight I'd have built a more powerful 7 if there'd been a kit but there wasn't. Self build was important to me as is keeping the car I've built. I wouldn't want one with less performance unless it was to use purely for on road wandering.
My first Caterham was an r400. Thought it would be plenty. On road it is - but still lots of fun. On track it's not enough. Great on short twisty circuits but doesn't have the puff on longer tracks like Silverstone, Spa or the Ring. Upgraditis meant getting rbtbs fitted. Made a good difference, but after 10 years with the car, I've now decided to trade up to an R500 for more power.
At the end of the day, we are all different, and so is our usage profile. I think the best advice here is start with a Duratec. It's cheap and easy to upgrade all the way to 220bhp. It's also extremely reliable. If it's set up right (geo and flat floor) you won't notice the small weight penalty vs a Sigma engined car.
Finally, upgraditis is not optional. It's a disease which strikes every Caterham owner. Be prepared- and good luck with your choice!!
At the end of the day, we are all different, and so is our usage profile. I think the best advice here is start with a Duratec. It's cheap and easy to upgrade all the way to 220bhp. It's also extremely reliable. If it's set up right (geo and flat floor) you won't notice the small weight penalty vs a Sigma engined car.
Finally, upgraditis is not optional. It's a disease which strikes every Caterham owner. Be prepared- and good luck with your choice!!
I don't understand why a 420R would be too much on the road? Don't you just press the throttle pedal a bit less?
I haven't drive a 420R so perhaps they are totally mental but I have a 620R and find it just fine on the road, it has plenty of torque and is easy to pootle about in.
I know everyone has different opinions on this but if your budget allows then I would say get the most powerful one you can and just be prepared to drive it gently on the road.
I haven't drive a 420R so perhaps they are totally mental but I have a 620R and find it just fine on the road, it has plenty of torque and is easy to pootle about in.
I know everyone has different opinions on this but if your budget allows then I would say get the most powerful one you can and just be prepared to drive it gently on the road.
I do get the ‘too much for the road’ argument. If you want to enjoy the full performance of the car on a Sunday morning hoon, then you’d want a car that has sensible power. But when you have serious power, you have to drive well within the car’s performance envelope. Perhaps you’re missing out one some element of fun by not being able to ‘thrash’ it. But that is also true when riding motorbikes, and not once have I though “I wish this had less power” when riding a fast bike.
I’ve not yet owned a Caterham, but have started to think about if/when/what I should buy. If I was to buy one I’d be looking for a Duratec with at least 200bhp. My thinking is I’d want the car for trackdays at least as much as road driving. I’ve already got a reasonably light car with 200bhp, and the lack of performance when the speed gets into three figures is noticeable.
The 310 is apparently at the upper end of the performance achievable from that engine without spending a lot of money. Whereas if you start with the 360, it’s easily tuneable to the same power as the 420. I’ve test driven the 360R a couple of times, and it was pretty much as expected. I think I’d want more before long.
Having spoken to current owners, and guys at Caterham (including Graham Macdonald, who drives has a 620 himself), I’m now of the opinion that if I plan to upgrade to over 200bhp at some point in the future, I might as well just buy the car that has the power I want. Sure, that will mean more performance than I will ever need on the road, but I don’t think ‘need’ is pertinent to the decision making process when buying a 7.
I’ve not yet owned a Caterham, but have started to think about if/when/what I should buy. If I was to buy one I’d be looking for a Duratec with at least 200bhp. My thinking is I’d want the car for trackdays at least as much as road driving. I’ve already got a reasonably light car with 200bhp, and the lack of performance when the speed gets into three figures is noticeable.
The 310 is apparently at the upper end of the performance achievable from that engine without spending a lot of money. Whereas if you start with the 360, it’s easily tuneable to the same power as the 420. I’ve test driven the 360R a couple of times, and it was pretty much as expected. I think I’d want more before long.
Having spoken to current owners, and guys at Caterham (including Graham Macdonald, who drives has a 620 himself), I’m now of the opinion that if I plan to upgrade to over 200bhp at some point in the future, I might as well just buy the car that has the power I want. Sure, that will mean more performance than I will ever need on the road, but I don’t think ‘need’ is pertinent to the decision making process when buying a 7.
I do and don't see the 'too much power for the road' argument.
As has been pointed out you're under no obligation to exploit the car's full ability on the road, so I doubt you'd ever regret having too much power.
In my case budget played a part too. I could have (just about) stretched to a 420R but based on the school of thought that I'd only ever really exploit the extra power on track (and only then after some serious development in my driving skills) I couldn't justify dropping the extra £5k on something that I'd only use a few times a year, and probably only really benefit from three years down the line once my driving was more up to scratch.
With the 310 spec engine as a base the costs to get to 180bhp aren't astronomical later down the line and the weight saving will pitch a 180bhp Sigma in above a 360 but a little below a 420 in terms of power / weight.
Suffice it to say my 310R kit arrives in July.
Don't get me wrong, if I was sat on top of a lottery win I won't pretend for a second I wouldn't buy a 420R. But in the real world I just started thinking about what else I could do with £5k.
As has been pointed out you're under no obligation to exploit the car's full ability on the road, so I doubt you'd ever regret having too much power.
In my case budget played a part too. I could have (just about) stretched to a 420R but based on the school of thought that I'd only ever really exploit the extra power on track (and only then after some serious development in my driving skills) I couldn't justify dropping the extra £5k on something that I'd only use a few times a year, and probably only really benefit from three years down the line once my driving was more up to scratch.
With the 310 spec engine as a base the costs to get to 180bhp aren't astronomical later down the line and the weight saving will pitch a 180bhp Sigma in above a 360 but a little below a 420 in terms of power / weight.
Suffice it to say my 310R kit arrives in July.
Don't get me wrong, if I was sat on top of a lottery win I won't pretend for a second I wouldn't buy a 420R. But in the real world I just started thinking about what else I could do with £5k.
BigRabs said:
I do and don't see the 'too much power for the road' argument.
As has been pointed out you're under no obligation to exploit the car's full ability on the road, so I doubt you'd ever regret having too much power.
In my case budget played a part too. I could have (just about) stretched to a 420R but based on the school of thought that I'd only ever really exploit the extra power on track (and only then after some serious development in my driving skills) I couldn't justify dropping the extra £5k on something that I'd only use a few times a year, and probably only really benefit from three years down the line once my driving was more up to scratch.
With the 310 spec engine as a base the costs to get to 180bhp aren't astronomical later down the line and the weight saving will pitch a 180bhp Sigma in above a 360 but a little below a 420 in terms of power / weight.
Suffice it to say my 310R kit arrives in July.
Don't get me wrong, if I was sat on top of a lottery win I won't pretend for a second I wouldn't buy a 420R. But in the real world I just started thinking about what else I could do with £5k.
A fair point on the 310 base price compared to the 420.As has been pointed out you're under no obligation to exploit the car's full ability on the road, so I doubt you'd ever regret having too much power.
In my case budget played a part too. I could have (just about) stretched to a 420R but based on the school of thought that I'd only ever really exploit the extra power on track (and only then after some serious development in my driving skills) I couldn't justify dropping the extra £5k on something that I'd only use a few times a year, and probably only really benefit from three years down the line once my driving was more up to scratch.
With the 310 spec engine as a base the costs to get to 180bhp aren't astronomical later down the line and the weight saving will pitch a 180bhp Sigma in above a 360 but a little below a 420 in terms of power / weight.
Suffice it to say my 310R kit arrives in July.
Don't get me wrong, if I was sat on top of a lottery win I won't pretend for a second I wouldn't buy a 420R. But in the real world I just started thinking about what else I could do with £5k.
But my initial point to the OP still stands, it's only £2k more to buy the 360 over the cost of the 310, and I firmly believe that the Duratec is the better engine despite being a bit heavier, the relatively low cost to upgrade easily up to 210bhp, compared to something from a company like Premier Power at over £10k just doesn't compare.
I tested a 270, then a 620, which was enough to convince me that more power was the way forward for me! I did come from fairly big bikes though. I bought the fastest that was slightly above my budget 🤣, a 220bhp Duratec. Sometimes I think less could be better, requiring more engagement more of the time. Sometimes I think more could be better as at speed it's probably no faster than a modern turbo diesel.
I think it depends on your intended use. I have a Superlight Twenty which is essentially a 270r with 135bhp. I probably will go for the 310r upgrade at sompoint though. I use my car purely for weekend B road blats, and around 3 track days a year. For the type of roads I drive on, it has just about the right amount of power. You can redline it in every gear with the 6speed box without going at ridiculous speeds. It is so much fun! On track you ideally would want a bit more power, although it's still great fun and you are still one of the quicker cars on most of the track days I have been on. So if you were intending to do lots of track days, then I would go for a higher powered model. My use is 95% road and 5% track. So I'm happy to sacrifice a little bit of power for only 5% of the time. Whichever model you get, you will love it!
310R is a great package imho, someone mentioned about running out of puff at circuits like Spa etc. I race in the 310R championship and we have just returned from Spa and it honestly felt great around there. Flat out up Eau Rouge and through Blanchimount is epic. Yes the 420R is another level and they were going up to 10s quicker than the 310R's around Spa but what I am trying to say is I cannot think why most of us mortals would be disappointed with a 310R on track as they are amazing. Forgive my self indulgence with this link but this video shows my 2 fastest laps of the weekend.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qcpYhjWm3E&fe...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qcpYhjWm3E&fe...
Interesting and nice dilemma :-). To some extent it will depend on your history with fast cars or bikes I think.
I started my Caterham "life" with a 1.6k ss. Loved the car & had it 10 years. Prior to that I had little experience in performance cars. In the end, it felt like it fitted like a glove and on track days I could drive it to within an inch of "my" capabilities....which sometimes came close to the capabilities of the car :-). it ran out of legs quickly on any tracks with long straights, which is why I tended to stick to the smaller/twisty tracks. No matter what Caterham you choose, it's mainly about going round corners fast rather than top speed anyway (IMHO).
I then switched to an R400 D which I've now had for 7 years. It really is a great car to drive, but is definitely harder to drive "on the edge" with my capabilities. In the dry, you could pretty much mash the go faster pedal on track in the 1.6, much harder and more balanced in the R400 :-). One is not necessarily more enjoyable than the other. My best ever trackday is still a day at Cadwell in the 1.6 I think, the worst a complete washout at Angelsey in the R400 (scared myself stupid LOL).
Both were capable on roads....both got illegal quickly (one faster than the other)...both could have you in a ditch in the wet etc :-) but both could be pootled about on a Sunday afternoon.
Friends of mine have R300's....which was probably the sweet spot back then so your target won't disappoint initially. Will then depend on how fast you catch upgraditis and the hunt for more power :-) ... maybe never ?
In the end, personal choice based on background and intended use.
I started my Caterham "life" with a 1.6k ss. Loved the car & had it 10 years. Prior to that I had little experience in performance cars. In the end, it felt like it fitted like a glove and on track days I could drive it to within an inch of "my" capabilities....which sometimes came close to the capabilities of the car :-). it ran out of legs quickly on any tracks with long straights, which is why I tended to stick to the smaller/twisty tracks. No matter what Caterham you choose, it's mainly about going round corners fast rather than top speed anyway (IMHO).
I then switched to an R400 D which I've now had for 7 years. It really is a great car to drive, but is definitely harder to drive "on the edge" with my capabilities. In the dry, you could pretty much mash the go faster pedal on track in the 1.6, much harder and more balanced in the R400 :-). One is not necessarily more enjoyable than the other. My best ever trackday is still a day at Cadwell in the 1.6 I think, the worst a complete washout at Angelsey in the R400 (scared myself stupid LOL).
Both were capable on roads....both got illegal quickly (one faster than the other)...both could have you in a ditch in the wet etc :-) but both could be pootled about on a Sunday afternoon.
Friends of mine have R300's....which was probably the sweet spot back then so your target won't disappoint initially. Will then depend on how fast you catch upgraditis and the hunt for more power :-) ... maybe never ?
In the end, personal choice based on background and intended use.
Edited by Steve Campbell on Thursday 18th May 11:44
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