Horrendous transmission noises in a selection of Caterham's

Horrendous transmission noises in a selection of Caterham's

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Discussion

the av8er

144 posts

123 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
I just can't believe what I'm reading !!
Caterham have the cheek to place a massively over inflated price on there cars. Agreed, they are brilliant but you would have to agree they couldn't be more basic.
They then tell their customers that they're not doing anything about there problem (as though they're normal ! ) and act as they're not bothered. Then you the customer just drop the matter while continuing to hand over your tens of thousands of pounds for what is basically an overblown skateboard with an engine.

Don't get me wrong ! I love them. But they are taking the p**s and will continue to do so for as long as their customers allow them to.

Remember, the customer is always right and, cash is king.
If you have these problems, you only have yourselves to blame. What a sorry state of affairs !!!!!

You need to make caterham act to sort any and all of these problems out.

Your seriously going to take a set of spanners to your car and sort it yourself. Really !!!!!! Wow !! Catechism have got you all well trained !! Can't imagine the customers of any other makes allowing that !! Or the owner just putting up with all that racket !!

anonymous-user

54 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
the av8er said:
I just can't believe what I'm reading !!
Caterham have the cheek to place a massively over inflated price on there cars. Agreed, they are brilliant but you would have to agree they couldn't be more basic.
They then tell their customers that they're not doing anything about there problem (as though they're normal ! ) and act as they're not bothered. Then you the customer just drop the matter while continuing to hand over your tens of thousands of pounds for what is basically an overblown skateboard with an engine.

Don't get me wrong ! I love them. But they are taking the p**s and will continue to do so for as long as their customers allow them to.

Remember, the customer is always right and, cash is king.
If you have these problems, you only have yourselves to blame. What a sorry state of affairs !!!!!

You need to make caterham act to sort any and all of these problems out.

Your seriously going to take a set of spanners to your car and sort it yourself. Really !!!!!! Wow !! Catechism have got you all well trained !! Can't imagine the customers of any other makes allowing that !! Or the owner just putting up with all that racket !!

The car’s over 5 years old so I have little chance of getting Catechism (as you so ironically call them smile to sort it out under warranty, and they’d be the last port of call were I to be expected to pay, to be honest.

However, I will await your suggestions of how I can get them to ‘act to sort any and all of these problems out.’





the av8er

144 posts

123 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
That is ironic !! Believe it or not, that was purely spell check.
Sorry to hear your car is out of warranty. However many of these problems are present from new. Caterham simply explain them away and the customer nods their head in agreement and that's that.
My car is Duratec with type 9 box and ford diff. My car makes all the right noises. Slight engine noise and induction roar. Nearly all the noise is exhaust and the odd bang from the shocks over bumps due to them being rose jointed and nothing else.

I would guess, sounds that appear only on trailing throttle are most likely coming from diff internals. Either poor oil or inaccurate assembly.
I just replaced all 4 rear cv boots (2 were perished) only to find 1 tight cv joint. On inspection it appears to have been inaccurately machined !

I'm sure the problem you have can be cured. If you save the labour of removal and refit, l bet it wouldn't cost that much either.

anonymous-user

54 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
the av8er said:
That is ironic !! Believe it or not, that was purely spell check.
Sorry to hear your car is out of warranty. However many of these problems are present from new. Caterham simply explain them away and the customer nods their head in agreement and that's that.
My car is Duratec with type 9 box and ford diff. My car makes all the right noises. Slight engine noise and induction roar. Nearly all the noise is exhaust and the odd bang from the shocks over bumps due to them being rose jointed and nothing else.

I would guess, sounds that appear only on trailing throttle are most likely coming from diff internals. Either poor oil or inaccurate assembly.
I just replaced all 4 rear cv boots (2 were perished) only to find 1 tight cv joint. On inspection it appears to have been inaccurately machined !

I'm sure the problem you have can be cured. If you save the labour of removal and refit, l bet it wouldn't cost that much either.
Yes, I agree that the problems can be cured but I’ve already stripped the diff out twice and had it fully overhauled and then rechecked by the guy who’s supposed to know them best of all.

So it’s a little hard to know what to do next though the first thing will be checking all the small and other things that may be wrong.

I suspect it will all come down to the diff again.





Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 23 June 16:36

BertBert

19,035 posts

211 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
the av8er said:
If you have these problems, you only have yourselves to blame.
Hmmm

the av8er

144 posts

123 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
If he dismantled it. Checked it over. Found no obvious fault. Then reassembled as before. It will still sound as before.
The diff is one of the few items I've never worked on. But I assume there must be some adjustment possible to fine tune the alignment of the gears. If they are not right I'd expect whining or chatter or vibration or possibly all 3.

nigelpugh7

6,032 posts

190 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
the av8er said:
If he dismantled it. Checked it over. Found no obvious fault. Then reassembled as before. It will still sound as before.
The diff is one of the few items I've never worked on. But I assume there must be some adjustment possible to fine tune the alignment of the gears. If they are not right I'd expect whining or chatter or vibration or possibly all 3.
I think you will find that as he explains he had it professionally rebuilt by a company that specialises in differential service.

I’m sure this is why he is looking for opinions on what to do next.

the av8er

144 posts

123 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
Yes bertbert.
If you try selling products with faults and your customers buy them, there is no incentive for the seller to fix them.

If you the customer stop buying. The seller will be compelled to sort the problems.

As customers are still prepared to buy ( baring in mind the price and faults ), as I say....... You only have yourselves to blame !!

nigelpugh7

6,032 posts

190 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
I built the car myself in 2015, Nigel.

I have Luke Stevens about 45 minutes away and will take the car to Luke if I can’t sort it out. He’s done stuff before and is very good IMO and has a rolling road.

I’ve sent him the sound file for his opinion.

Edited by REALIST123 on Tuesday 23 June 14:01
Yes I thought it was a car you built yourself.

Do you think that noise was there from when you first built it?

I was just thinking about my last build, and now thinking back, that Caterham as a kit was perhaps the best quality build of a CKD kit from Caterham that I had ever experienced.

To that extent I had no issues like on previous builds with the diff bolts, they simply slid in, so perhaps tolerances were better.

That was my Superlight Twenty, with the Sigma Engine, 6 Speed Caterham box and the BMW Diff with LSD.

The transmission was almost sublime, not clanks, no chatter and smooth all day on Track as well.

That was a 2016 model year kit by the way, so pretty close to when you had yours as a kit too.

And I think that your course of action is to take it to Luke as mentioned , he will at least be able to help with the diagnosis of where the sound may be originating from.

nigelpugh7

6,032 posts

190 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
And just to prove that my memory was not failing me, here’s the pictures of my diff as it went it with ease.

http://superlighttwenty.blogspot.com/2016/03/diffe...


anonymous-user

54 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
the av8er said:
If he dismantled it. Checked it over. Found no obvious fault. Then reassembled as before. It will still sound as before.
The diff is one of the few items I've never worked on. But I assume there must be some adjustment possible to fine tune the alignment of the gears. If they are not right I'd expect whining or chatter or vibration or possibly all 3.
Just to clarify, though looking back I already did, the LSD failed. I stripped it out and took the unit to the gap who’s supposed to be the leading man in the UK. He fully rebuilt it. All new plates, washers, bearings and seals. At some cost.

I refitted the diff and our the car back together. There was a distinct tapping noise on overrun.

It was stripped out and returned. The expert completely stripped again, found a mark or something on the pinion, and rebuilt.

I refitted again and that’s where I am now, with this noise. The original tap has gone. I have sent the diff man the sound file and he says it’s characteristic of the Duratec because of its tilt forward, not matched by the diff.

I am now trying to establish if this is the case which I don’t believe. So far I have had many opinions most of which are helpful but nothing that definitely pinpoints the problem.

Once I have a qualified answer to what the noise is and what’s causing it, and can prove that, I will act accordingly but there’s not much I can do until that point.

In response to your assumption, of course there is and I am familiar with the process though not expert which is why I went to one.

The CW&P are adjusted both laterally and longitudinally to make sure the contact is correct with balanced lead in and off and the correct amount of backlash. If it’s wrong it can cause chatter but not normally under power or when engine braking when there is a load either way.

So it could be that but shouldn’t be all considered.

anonymous-user

54 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
nigelpugh7 said:
REALIST123 said:
I built the car myself in 2015, Nigel.

I have Luke Stevens about 45 minutes away and will take the car to Luke if I can’t sort it out. He’s done stuff before and is very good IMO and has a rolling road.

I’ve sent him the sound file for his opinion.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 23 June 14:01
Yes I thought it was a car you built yourself.

Do you think that noise was there from when you first built it?

I was just thinking about my last build, and now thinking back, that Caterham as a kit was perhaps the best quality build of a CKD kit from Caterham that I had ever experienced.

To that extent I had no issues like on previous builds with the diff bolts, they simply slid in, so perhaps tolerances were better.

That was my Superlight Twenty, with the Sigma Engine, 6 Speed Caterham box and the BMW Diff with LSD.

The transmission was almost sublime, not clanks, no chatter and smooth all day on Track as well.

That was a 2016 model year kit by the way, so pretty close to when you had yours as a kit too.

And I think that your course of action is to take it to Luke as mentioned , he will at least be able to help with the diagnosis of where the sound may be originating from.
Yes Nigel, the noise was there from the start but only mildly and on a partial lift off. It was easy to avoid it happening and I’d just forgotten about it. Now it’s much louder and on full overrun which is much harder to avoid.

anonymous-user

54 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
I got a few minutes and put my inclinometer on a few spots on the engine and on the flat spots on the diff.

The diff leans down at the front by 1.7 degrees more than the engine. Not right but enough to cause that noise?

Looking at the diff fixings I’m not sure at all that that amount of adjustment is there. By my calculations the front of the diff would need to lift by several mm to get 1.7 degrees and that’s not there.

This doesn’t support the theory that the diff is in a standard position to suit level engines and the Duratec slopes forward by 1.5 degrees, the difference is in the wrong way, but I’ll reserve judgment on that for now.

When I’ve more time I’ll do more of this measurement to confirm and hopefully I’ll get some info from CC to enable me to progress.


anonymous-user

54 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
Here my answer from CC.

Answer: Thanks for your e-mail. I have no idea if there is a slight slant on the engine but I don't think so, having built a couple I can't see that is true as the propshaft is aligned with the differential etc. LSD's do need servicing and sometimes the plates changing, early cars had carbon plates which although quieter would wear out quicker than sintered ones. Hope this was useful. Regards

Av8er- this is why it’s so fking difficult sorting anything out.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 23 June 20:05

BertBert

19,035 posts

211 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
REALIST123 said:
Here my answer from CC.

Answer: Thanks for your e-mail. I have no idea if there is a slight slant on the engine but I don't think so, having built a couple I can't see that is true as the propshaft is aligned with the differential etc. LSD's do need servicing and sometimes the plates changing, early cars had carbon plates which although quieter would wear out quicker than sintered ones. Hope this was useful. Regards

Av8er- this is why it’s so fking difficult sorting anything out.

Edited by REALIST123 on Tuesday 23 June 20:05
You need to be tougher with them and teach them a lesson. I'm sure Av8er will do it for you if you want.

Back on topic, have CC listened to your noise and opined on it?

Bert

anonymous-user

54 months

Tuesday 23rd June 2020
quotequote all
BertBert said:
REALIST123 said:
Here my answer from CC.

Answer: Thanks for your e-mail. I have no idea if there is a slight slant on the engine but I don't think so, having built a couple I can't see that is true as the propshaft is aligned with the differential etc. LSD's do need servicing and sometimes the plates changing, early cars had carbon plates which although quieter would wear out quicker than sintered ones. Hope this was useful. Regards

Av8er- this is why it’s so fking difficult sorting anything out.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 23 June 20:05
You need to be tougher with them and teach them a lesson. I'm sure Av8er will do it for you if you want.

Back on topic, have CC listened to your noise and opined on it?

Bert
I’d be happy to pay him to do it Bert! (Not much and on a NWNF basis, of course!)

What about it Av8er? Just kidding, we’re all frustrated by the general situation I’m sure and we’ve do get used and abused by CC really!

No Bert, they haven’t heard the soundfile, I don’t know where to send it or to whom.

I asked the question via the ‘ask an expert’ on the online store. It’s all anonymous but seems the only way to contact anyone.

I’m concerned that even if they hear it they’ll just say “let us have the car” send me a big bill and then say TADTS!


the av8er

144 posts

123 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
quotequote all
Well guys..................
I went back to the beginning of this thread and started again.
1) I hope you all know the story of " the emperor's New clothes ". When you focus on the fun, handling and acceleration of the car you justify the price. But when you inspect the actual car, there's little there for the money. There is nothing there that can't be cheaply and easily replicated. ( Hence all the copyright court cases ).

2) Caterham don't make anything. Unique components are made for them by contracted outside companies. All other parts are " off the shelf ". Then they are sold as kits. Some are assembled. With that set up, where are you going to get a technical mechanical engineer to give you advice ?? Dream on. However if you want a lesson in marketing, they are experts !!

3) I have heard of many issues with caterhams. Many believe they are the best. I've owned Dax rush, Westfield zetec, Westfield megabird, caterham 7 and now a Birkin 7. The Westys are way better plus all unique parts are made in house - allowing for more fluid development and a team you can talk to who know the product inside out. The megabird was just awesome !!!!! Beautifully engineered, stunningly build and off the scale performance. ( Caterham would never get a car like that right. And would charge double). The Dax was very robust and chunky, felt very safe and great to drive. The early caterham was weak and unrefined. The Birkin is quite simply on another level all together !! And I bet you've not heard of them. They are caterhams best kept secret. They are the only other company in the world to be granted a license by Lotus to continue making the original lotus 7. Only this company is engineering lead, not marketing lead which is why you probably don't know them,. However, the quality shows. Every inch beautifully engineered.

Sorry, I have moved off topic.
Going back to your diff. First I would drain it and refill to the right level with the correct spec highest quality oil. This could turn out to be the cheap easy fix. If no change, return it to the last company to have it and complain.

Note to those still in warranty or even those out of warranty with very low miles :

Go back to caterham and keep complaining. Just remember, if you parted with £35000, that's £15000 for the car and £20000 for a badge. So make them get it right !!

DCL

1,216 posts

179 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
quotequote all
In terms of the alignment, any misalignment will cause a torsional vibration (the prop delivery will be speeding up and slowing down twice every revolution). But 1.5 degrees is not very much and I would have thought it would only be noticeable under very light loads, or overrun, and probably be in the form of chatter, and just as likely be upsetting the gearbox as the diff.

I always thought this explains it well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idk3BVDVHq4

anonymous-user

54 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
quotequote all
DCL said:
In terms of the alignment, any misalignment will cause a torsional vibration (the prop delivery will be speeding up and slowing down twice every revolution). But 1.5 degrees is not very much and I would have thought it would only be noticeable under very light loads, or overrun, and probably be in the form of chatter, and just as likely be upsetting the gearbox as the diff.

I always thought this explains it well

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idk3BVDVHq4
DCL, that’s the very video I posted this morning on Blatchat. It does explain the issue very well, though is an extreme example.

I’ve been speaking to an old friend who is a fairly well qualified mechanical engineer and he’s familiar with this issue and does indeed think 1.7 degrees could be significant, especially, as you imply, under light loads.

So it’s worth examining. I’m still wondering if enough movement is to be found in the bolts but if I can get some movement in the lower bracket to chassis bolts the front of the diff will go up and the rear come down, which might make a noticeable change to the angle. Not the same with the diff to bracket bolts, where one point is at the extreme top rear so any play will only allow a small movement up at the front.


BertBert

19,035 posts

211 months

Wednesday 24th June 2020
quotequote all
the av8er said:
Well guys..................
I went back to the beginning of this thread and started again.
1) I hope you all know the story of " the emperor's New clothes ". When you focus on the fun, handling and acceleration of the car you justify the price. But when you inspect the actual car, there's little there for the money. There is nothing there that can't be cheaply and easily replicated. ( Hence all the copyright court cases ).

2) Caterham don't make anything. Unique components are made for them by contracted outside companies. All other parts are " off the shelf ". Then they are sold as kits. Some are assembled. With that set up, where are you going to get a technical mechanical engineer to give you advice ?? Dream on. However if you want a lesson in marketing, they are experts !!

3) I have heard of many issues with caterhams. Many believe they are the best. I've owned Dax rush, Westfield zetec, Westfield megabird, caterham 7 and now a Birkin 7. The Westys are way better plus all unique parts are made in house - allowing for more fluid development and a team you can talk to who know the product inside out. The megabird was just awesome !!!!! Beautifully engineered, stunningly build and off the scale performance. ( Caterham would never get a car like that right. And would charge double). The Dax was very robust and chunky, felt very safe and great to drive. The early caterham was weak and unrefined. The Birkin is quite simply on another level all together !! And I bet you've not heard of them. They are caterhams best kept secret. They are the only other company in the world to be granted a license by Lotus to continue making the original lotus 7. Only this company is engineering lead, not marketing lead which is why you probably don't know them,. However, the quality shows. Every inch beautifully engineered.

Sorry, I have moved off topic.
Going back to your diff. First I would drain it and refill to the right level with the correct spec highest quality oil. This could turn out to be the cheap easy fix. If no change, return it to the last company to have it and complain.

Note to those still in warranty or even those out of warranty with very low miles :

Go back to caterham and keep complaining. Just remember, if you parted with £35000, that's £15000 for the car and £20000 for a badge. So make them get it right !!
Dude as Mr Smug on this thread you are not helping. In fact you are being rather irritating and a bit of a knob (said on the nicest possible way). We are currently debating a specific problem on a specific car, do help out with that if you can.
Cheers
Bert