How to get heat into the tyres

[turbo9111]

Hi guys,
As per my other couple of posts im new to caterham ownership having recently purchasing a new 620r, And been having thoughts on how to get heat into the tyres for road use the 620 comes with zzr tyres which i belive are softer than the zzs but the zzs has more tread blocks so should move about more helping to create heat, my therory is to get the zzr cut to create more rubber blocks and as there softer should heat up quicker, also perhaps use some hotlap on the tyres to soften them up more again for more grip as i have read a few times that getting heat into the 620 tyres is such hard work, Anyone have any advice on this ??

[DCL]

Although a high power-to-weight ratio, the 620 is still a light and relatively low BHP car. So you'll always struggle to get hot tyre temperatures on the road. You could try switching to a 'road legal' sprint tyre such as a supersoft Kumho V70 which will work from cold, but tyre life will suffer. However, if the car is well balanced, then I would have thought temperatures would not be a problem as you tend to drive to the level of grip available.

[turbo9111]

DCL said:

Although a high power-to-weight ratio, the 620 is still a light and relatively low BHP car. So you'll always struggle to get hot tyre temperatures on the road. You could try switching to a 'road legal' sprint tyre such as a supersoft Kumho V70 which will work from cold, but tyre life will suffer. However, if the car is well balanced, then I would have thought temperatures would not be a problem as you tend to drive to the level of grip available.

Thanks thats a very good reply and gives me something to think about,

[mike150]

The ZZR is the same compound as the ZZS but because the ZZS obviously has more tread it heats up a little faster and generates more of it. I have ZZS fitted and in cool temperatures they struggle to work well on the road so I can imagine what the ZZR is like.

[Trackdayguy]

Lower the pressures and if your running adjustable dampers soften them up.

Edited by Trackdayguy on Monday 3rd December 02:13

[Trackdayguy]

DCL said:

Although a high power-to-weight ratio, the 620 is still a light and relatively low BHP car. So you'll always struggle to get hot tyre temperatures on the road. You could try switching to a 'road legal' sprint tyre such as a supersoft Kumho V70 which will work from cold, but tyre life will suffer. However, if the car is well balanced, then I would have thought temperatures would not be a problem as you tend to drive to the level of grip available.

I would agree, lots of grip with the V70 but the ride quality is horrid, the side walls are way to hard, because they weren't engineered for a1200 pound car That's why Avon do the tyres for Caterham, super soft side walls are essential on a light weight car. The V70 grips better because the compound is softer, but as I said it compromises the ride quality

Our Caterham Hayabusa Race Car with Avon slicks runs at 12 psi in front and 16 in the back, they heat up RIGHT NOW. Let the pressures down and buy a pyrometer then you can measure the change.

Edited by Trackdayguy on Monday 3rd December 02:27

[turbo9111]

Thanks for all the advice, looks like my idea of custom cutting some ZZRs would help, I've still to get the car setup as the weather is so crap this will prob happen in new year now, i,m trying not to go down the adjustable route if i can help it but always looking to improve my driving experience to say i,m wary of the 620 on cold roads is a tad of a understatement

[anonymous-user]

turbo9111 said:

Thanks for all the advice, looks like my idea of custom cutting some ZZRs would help, I've still to get the car setup as the weather is so crap this will prob happen in new year now, i,m trying not to go down the adjustable route if i can help it but always looking to improve my driving experience to say i,m wary of the 620 on cold roads is a tad of a understatement

You’ll always need to be wary on cold roads. Even my R400 with 90bhp less will bite if you’re not wary in cold weather.

Having said that a track day at Snet a few weeks ago, 11/12c ambient didn’t stop us getting the tyres hot and grippy after a few laps.

But I wouldn't risk cutting ZZRs; that could lead to all sorts of different issues. Just get another set of rims with ZZS tyres and use accordingly. They’ll be similar on road in the dry but the Ss will be better when it’s wet.

Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 3rd December 16:41

[downsman]

Just a thought............

As I understand it the compounds used for summer tyres don't work well at low temperatures, so rather than using a summer tyre and trying to heat it up, you could try buying winter tyres designed to grip on cold wet slippery roads.

Or you could buy a second Seven with half the horsepower, my Roadsport is good fun in autumn/spring conditions on Uniroyal Rain Experts

[Trackdayguy]

mike150 said:

The ZZR is the same compound as the ZZS but because the ZZS obviously has more tread it heats up a little faster and generates more of it. I have ZZS fitted and in cool temperatures they struggle to work well on the road so I can imagine what the ZZR is like.

I didn't know that... Is that 100% fact ?

[turbo9111]

I was told differant when i bought my car, I was told the zzs are harder compound and this came from a good source, why would i buy a caterham with less power??, if i had wanted a roadsport i would have or will buy one i,m just looking for advice how to make mine work on cold tarmac, and i dont take it out on damp or wet roads cus i want to live a bit longer ...

[Trackdayguy]

As as been said the ZZR is a track based tyre that works better with heat in it, if you can't get heat in by either tyre warmers, lowing the pressures to get heat then raising them again you need to be thinking about an alternative tyre.

In my experience with the Caterham you have to work hard to get any type of heat in the Caterham tyre and on a cold day with a cold surface its all up hill.

[upsidedownmark]

... and that's on a track. IMHO the idea of having enough heat in a tyre to make a meaningful, noticeable difference on road is fanciful to say the least.

Based on my (minimal) experience, a 620 is very ready to unhook the rear tyres at will on a nice warm dry summer day. On cold damp winters days it's going to be leery. That's rather the nature of the beast, nothing is going to solve that. If you are determined to tinker, as has been said look for a winter type tyre that works better when cold, but you're still going to have a lot of power and especially torque going to a lightly loaded tyre. It's still going to be wayward.

[HustleRussell]

IME on the road you aren’t going to get ‘heat’ into them but you might get the ‘cold’ out of them.

[mike150]

Trackdayguy said:

mike150 said:

The ZZR is the same compound as the ZZS but because the ZZS obviously has more tread it heats up a little faster and generates more of it. I have ZZS fitted and in cool temperatures they struggle to work well on the road so I can imagine what the ZZR is like.

I didn't know that... Is that 100% fact ?

I'm 100% sure I read it somewhere many months ago but I can't recall where................so maybe I'm wrong.

Ask Avon.

[anonymous-user]

Avon day about the ZZR

“ZZR
ZZR
“The Avon ZZR design brief was immense. “To develop the fastest dry weather, track orientated, road legal, E-marked race tyre in the world”. The ZZR was a perfect opportunity for Avon’s technical department to showcase the company’s cutting edge motorsport design and state-of-the-art tyre manufacturing techniques.

The 13” versions were designed specifically for lightweight cars to optimise both road and on-track performance. The range has been further developed with bigger sizes for saloon cars but keeps that ultimate performance aim.

Ultimate dry performance
List 1B and 1C permitted race tyres
E-marked
Full racing tread compound
Designed by the Avon Tyres Motorsport Technical Department.
Ideal championship control tyre
Tyre construction utilises materials found in GT, F3, Formula Ford and other world class forms of motorsport.
MSA blue book
List 1B - OE Fitments marked 15156 & 15157 only
List 1C - rest of ZZR range

The standard A64 circuit 13" Avon ZZR range has the following EU tyre labeling ratings (View tyre label)
Fuel efficiency - F
Wet Grip - C
Noise - 72dB
All other sizes and compounds of Avon ZZR range has the following EU tyre labeling ratings (View tyre label)

Fuel efficiency - G
Wet Grip - C
Noise - 72dB ”

About the ZZS

“ZZS
ZZS
The Avon ZZS is a tyre range developed to offer outstanding all-round performance in both wet and dry conditions and both on the road and on the track. The unique symmetrical and directional motorsport derived tread pattern was designed to maximize water clearance while maintaining superb dry weather performance through excellent tread block stability. The ZZS is fully road legal DOT marked and complies with all EU Tyre Labeling regulations.

New for 2015 the Avon ZZS will become the single control tyre for the official Caterham Roadsport, Tracksport and Supersort race championships.

Superb dry and wet weather performance
Fully road legal, DOT Marked and EU Tyre Labeling compliant
List 1B permitted race tyre (2015 onwards)
Full racing tread compound
Designed by the Avon Tyres Motorsport Technical Department.
Ideal championship control tyre
Tyre construction utilises materials found in GT, F3, Formula Ford and other world class forms of motorsport.
A road legal racing tyre

The ZZS tyre has the following EU tyre labeling ratings (View tyre label)

Fuel efficiency - F
Wet Grip - C
Noise - 72dB”

So it seems very similar but there are different ZZRs?

[turbo9111]

Thanks for all the input, i,m not trying to take away what the 620 does i was just thinking if anyone had experimented with tyres and compounds to try to find a little more grip or had come across a way of getting a bit more heat into the zz tyres on the road which would perhaps give a little more confidence when in the lets go for a spirited drive mode, it very much reminds me of my super bike owning days where you had to be so careful that you had to get heat into the tyres before you even thought about riding it like you stole it, i have to say i have never driven anything like it and I've had my fair share of very fast motors....

[mickrick]

Move to Mallorca

[gareth h]

I had a (215 BHP) caterham with two sets of rims, the ZZRs were great on track, but as you say never got up to working temp on the road, the other rims were fitted with kumho V70 which worked much better on the road.

[ellipsis]

I tried to get heat into four Avon ZZS tyres today and failed miserably. This despite my best (read hamfisted) attempts.

Anyway, a couple of pictures (pre-take off and in-flight sandwiches) :