Independent rear suspension
Discussion
BertBert said:
I'm not particularly defending them, but they did bring the 21 out the same time the Elise arrived.
Yes, the 21 suffered from a healthy dose of bad luck, but even then, with a little bit of persistence and development it could have found a big enough niche to make it worthwhile for a company like Caterham.The CSR was a good (sophisticated) chassis design for a mild steel spaceframe. Its main problems were that by the time it arrived steel spaceframes were rather passe for premium trackday toys, there are other sophisiticated '7'-type spaceframes for half the price... and it just wasn't a 'genuine' S3. Caterham's hardcore fanbois had spent decades convincing themselves that what made the company's products special and worth the premium was that they were the 'genuine' legacy of Colin Chapman (as much as that is utter b
ks in itself), and the CSR just didn't fit that fantasy.Caterham's USP has become self defeating to their survival, unless they can re-write it.
BertBert said:
I'm not particularly defending them, but they did bring the 21 out the same time the Elise arrived.
The other way of looking at it, they have done a fantastic job of re-inventing their core product over the years. They have got it to huge power outputs as well as huge prices! So many variants - even trying to breathe life back into flared wings
I hope that in the end your hope for them comes true and they get into new tech in time.
Bert
We are all on this thread as we love the cars, but let's hope that they secure their future. The other way of looking at it, they have done a fantastic job of re-inventing their core product over the years. They have got it to huge power outputs as well as huge prices! So many variants - even trying to breathe life back into flared wings
I hope that in the end your hope for them comes true and they get into new tech in time.
Bert
Equus said:
Caterham's hardcore fanbois had spent decades convincing themselves that what made the company's products special and worth the premium was that they were the 'genuine' legacy of Colin Chapman (as much as that is utter bks in itself), and the CSR just didn't fit that fantasy.
Genuinely I don't understand your line of thinking. Again you bring up this whole pejorative customer thing. If there is very strong brand loyalty, which there is, it's rarely thought about in such negative terms!ks in itself), and the CSR just didn't fit that fantasy.Equus, I don't know what your business experience is, but having a diverse range of products - even popular ones - is no guarantee of survival. Caterham have a product which "works", it's well sorted and there's a waiting list for it. It's been evolved through a whole series of models, each with their own strengths and weaknesses, and your implication that they bear no relationship to Chapman's original design is nonsense. Caterham deserve credit for retaining the ethos of the original car in a very different world to the one it was conceived in. If you want to get mad at something not being "genuine", why don't you direct your ire towards all the 7 look-a-likes, the ones that couldn't "do", so they copied? As for the fan base. What fan base? What research do you have in your possession to back up your sweeping assertions? How long does the average owner retain their car for, what are their earnings, education level, single, married, partner, family, do they upgrade, what's their average age, how many times are they likely to buy a Caterham in their lifetime, would it be a "one-off" purchase, how many are for road use only, track days only, competition....etc.,etc.,etc. Facts please, and yes, they are expensive and why not? You're the one worried about them "going under", They've got a full order book and presumably they're making a good profit, so what's the problem?
Or perhaps I should ask what's your problem?
Or perhaps I should ask what's your problem?
ken46 said:
I...having a diverse range of products - even popular ones - is no guarantee of survival.
I'm sure that you'd agree that it gives a company a better chance of survival than having a single product that they are not allowed to sell, though?In Caterham's case, it's more that they need an image, USP and customer base that is more tolerant of change and diversification.
ken46 said:
Caterham have a product which "works", it's well sorted and there's a waiting list for it.... so what's the problem?
If you read back a few posts, you'll find that the problem is that in 9 years time, their current product range (IC cars) will be banned outright in their main market (the UK), and their current customer base has been very vocal in stating that they have no interest in what will be the lawful alternatives.And unlike all their main competitors, Caterham has neither begun developing alternative products nor cultivating an image and customer base that might be tolerant of supporting them.
braddo said:
Who are Caterham's UK competitors?
Ariel? Westfield? I woudn't have thought Morgan.
Yes, Ariel, Westfield, Morgan if you like. Lotus of course. Even Radical is well ahead of Caterham in terms of planning for an EV future - they had an EV variant running 11 years ago.Ariel? Westfield? I woudn't have thought Morgan.
Equus said:
Yes, Ariel, Westfield, Morgan if you like. Lotus of course. Even Radical is well ahead of Caterham in terms of planning for an EV future - they had an EV variant running 11 years ago.
Radical - a one-off car put together by some university students a decade ago is hardly much use for developing production electric cars that Radical might have to sell in a decade's time.It makes absolutely no sense for companies who make <500 cars a year to be spending money today on possible EV powertrains of their own that might be required in 10 years' time, when everyone knows the big manufacturers will make massive strides in that time (whatever those strides may be) which will make the small companies' efforts today totally, utterly irrelevant.
braddo said:
Radical - a one-off car put together by some university students a decade ago is hardly much use...
More or less use than nothing at all, would you say?You're conflating two separate things, by the way: if you read the article, you'll see that Radical had already created the car themselves, before creating a partnership with Imperial College (one of the best engineering universities in the world, incidentally) to enter into a test programme.
braddo said:
It makes absolutely no sense for companies who make <500 cars a year to be spending money today on possible EV powertrains of their own that might be required in 10 years' time, when everyone knows the big manufacturers will make massive strides in that time (whatever those strides may be) which will make the small companies' efforts today totally, utterly irrelevant.
Utter nonsense. The requirements for low volume vehicles are quite different. For example, Westfield and Morgan (working in cooperation) have already figured out how to cost-effectively package batteries that suit the shape and packaging requirements of their vehicles, instead of having to rely on a battery pack or 'skateboard' from a major manufacturer that won't match their structure.As I've said repeatedly above, the Government as been providing free money in the form of grants via the Niche Vehicle Network to research this sort of stuff, with the intention that small manufacturers can actually spearhead progress.
What sort of numpty company actually fails to take advantage of free funding?
Equus said:
What sort of numpty company actually fails to take advantage of free funding?
One that does not want to take government assistance unless they need it; one whose management might care a little about value for the UK taxpayer before asking for 'free' funding that can be spent on their own white elephant project.Why do you have to use such pejorative language?
Go and design your kit car, set up shop as a small manufacturer, get your government grant, and show Caterham how it's done. Less talking, more doing. Chop chop!
As the original post, there is much I want to say. A lot on the lines of Equus.
However, having read through it all, it becomes clear that you are becoming very frustrated. It's no one's fault because for these people to understand what you mean, they need to have some imagination.
All they see is the badge, a car that is different to any other and still is, and how brilliant it is to drive. If it has another badge it must be crap and if you alter it you'd ruin it.
However, it has had a badge change ( from Lotus ) and it has changed many times already.
But without imagination, they can't see what it could be or should be ( bearing in mind it's now 2021 ).
Because caterham cars recognise this, they have chosen to do nothing............. no development to current tech. With the attitude of " what the customer hasn't had, it won't miss ". In other words some of their customers have allowed them to just be plain lazy.
I've had many cars, ( including caterham, Westfield, Dax rush and my current 7 ) worked in engineering and have an imaginative flair. In my head, I see exactly what this car could and should be, and it aggregates me that those responsible have just made no effort. All they seem to concentrate on is branding and marketing ( not engineering and development ). Until the customer develops an imagination, this won't change.
Like these people I'm also very frustrated, but for a different reason. For me it's because I have an imagination and want a Caterham of 2021. The others are frustrated because they have no imagination so therefore can't see what all the fuss is about.
If I could click my fingers and put it in front of them, they would then understand. ( However, if it didn't have the right badge on it they'd probably say it's crap ............. Only joking, I'm now taking the p1ss )
However, having read through it all, it becomes clear that you are becoming very frustrated. It's no one's fault because for these people to understand what you mean, they need to have some imagination.
All they see is the badge, a car that is different to any other and still is, and how brilliant it is to drive. If it has another badge it must be crap and if you alter it you'd ruin it.
However, it has had a badge change ( from Lotus ) and it has changed many times already.
But without imagination, they can't see what it could be or should be ( bearing in mind it's now 2021 ).
Because caterham cars recognise this, they have chosen to do nothing............. no development to current tech. With the attitude of " what the customer hasn't had, it won't miss ". In other words some of their customers have allowed them to just be plain lazy.
I've had many cars, ( including caterham, Westfield, Dax rush and my current 7 ) worked in engineering and have an imaginative flair. In my head, I see exactly what this car could and should be, and it aggregates me that those responsible have just made no effort. All they seem to concentrate on is branding and marketing ( not engineering and development ). Until the customer develops an imagination, this won't change.
Like these people I'm also very frustrated, but for a different reason. For me it's because I have an imagination and want a Caterham of 2021. The others are frustrated because they have no imagination so therefore can't see what all the fuss is about.
If I could click my fingers and put it in front of them, they would then understand. ( However, if it didn't have the right badge on it they'd probably say it's crap ............. Only joking, I'm now taking the p1ss )
Taking a step back to the original IRS subject, I see that Meteor are now offering a retrofit solution: https://meteormotorsport.com/caterham/caterham-irs...
I was about to start looking for a CSR, but this certainly opens up options for sourcing a newer car and having it modified.
I was about to start looking for a CSR, but this certainly opens up options for sourcing a newer car and having it modified.
gareth h said:
Taking a step back to the original IRS subject, I see that Meteor are now offering a retrofit solution: https://meteormotorsport.com/caterham/caterham-irs...
I was about to start looking for a CSR, but this certainly opens up options for sourcing a newer car and having it modified.
I asked Arch to do this on my brand new Imperial Arch SV chassis back in 2007, but they weren't interested. Inboard discs would be a nice way to go with this too. Massive saving in unsprung weight.I was about to start looking for a CSR, but this certainly opens up options for sourcing a newer car and having it modified.
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