why Caterham is blocking?
Discussion
moivre said:
All right .
But advantages and disadvantages... I see:
The blocking of the homologation of the 485 for 8 months
I see the ban on the sale of the 620
I see all the cars which increase their performance a lot in 10 to 15 years while Caterham is frozen when it is an essential parameter of his mind
What can I say, they know their customers and what they want.But advantages and disadvantages... I see:
The blocking of the homologation of the 485 for 8 months
I see the ban on the sale of the 620
I see all the cars which increase their performance a lot in 10 to 15 years while Caterham is frozen when it is an essential parameter of his mind
The vast majority of Caterham owners wouldn’t consider buying a Caterham with a turbo engine, myself included. The joy of these cars is the engine and the instant throttle response. As someone has said above, this sounds very much like a problem with your country’s legislation rather than Caterham. They know exactly what their customers want.
I think there's a lot getting lost in the translation here.
I think I can speak for most people when I say that Caterham buyers would prefer a supercharger given it provides much more linear power delivery than an y turbo and bi-turbo. Also, packaging a turbo in a small car like a Caterham is really tough due to the limited space, a supercharger solution like in the 620 solves this issue.
As far as the regulations go, this is an issue with the legislation. A light, high powered car like a 7 is way more fuel efficient than a two tonne SUV, it's just that the legislation doesn't play by the right rules.
Your main issue though, is Caterham are already fully booked every year, so they're probably not worried about European sales at the moment.
I think I can speak for most people when I say that Caterham buyers would prefer a supercharger given it provides much more linear power delivery than an y turbo and bi-turbo. Also, packaging a turbo in a small car like a Caterham is really tough due to the limited space, a supercharger solution like in the 620 solves this issue.
As far as the regulations go, this is an issue with the legislation. A light, high powered car like a 7 is way more fuel efficient than a two tonne SUV, it's just that the legislation doesn't play by the right rules.
Your main issue though, is Caterham are already fully booked every year, so they're probably not worried about European sales at the moment.
IIRC from the evening with caterham management session referred to, they talked about getting the 485 approved as one of the biggest jobs they've done and was all consuming for them to the exclusion of many other priorities.
If by "blocked" you mean they deliberately held it up, you are very much mistaken.
One view is that despite a huge order book, caterham are in deep s
t in so many ways. Their engine supply situation is parlous, they can't make money from the cars they can make and there isn't a hope in hell of them making an all new electric car and being successful with it.
Good bunch of guys and I wish them well. They've let the marketing run away with itself and have got too many variants to deal with. Hopefully they can simplify, get quality up and throughput up to give them room to work on the future.
Just my view of course.
Bert
If by "blocked" you mean they deliberately held it up, you are very much mistaken.
One view is that despite a huge order book, caterham are in deep s
t in so many ways. Their engine supply situation is parlous, they can't make money from the cars they can make and there isn't a hope in hell of them making an all new electric car and being successful with it.Good bunch of guys and I wish them well. They've let the marketing run away with itself and have got too many variants to deal with. Hopefully they can simplify, get quality up and throughput up to give them room to work on the future.
Just my view of course.
Bert
Edited by BertBert on Saturday 11th March 11:37
Last set of accounts if anyone's interested: https://s3.eu-west-2.amazonaws.com/document-api-im...
Sales aren't far off 50% UK:50% RoW. That's more than I expected in RoW.
Strong order book, and what with the price rises over the last year (albeit a large part due to input costs), I wonder how their figures will look y/e 2023 and y/e 2024.
They were hit - like others - by Covid and Ukraine supply issues, but hopefully can start turning a profit soon.
Significant headwinds in the form of Net Zero though. There's only so much stock of engines etc. you can buy up and that's only a short-term solution. Perhaps buying the patent and manufacturing the Duratech etc. is the way forward - as a small conglomerate or otherwise. Developing a bespoke EV drive train for the 7 must be resource/cost intensive. I assume it's not something that can be pulled from another platform given the nature of the 7.
Sales aren't far off 50% UK:50% RoW. That's more than I expected in RoW.
Strong order book, and what with the price rises over the last year (albeit a large part due to input costs), I wonder how their figures will look y/e 2023 and y/e 2024.
They were hit - like others - by Covid and Ukraine supply issues, but hopefully can start turning a profit soon.
Significant headwinds in the form of Net Zero though. There's only so much stock of engines etc. you can buy up and that's only a short-term solution. Perhaps buying the patent and manufacturing the Duratech etc. is the way forward - as a small conglomerate or otherwise. Developing a bespoke EV drive train for the 7 must be resource/cost intensive. I assume it's not something that can be pulled from another platform given the nature of the 7.
We are getting off the topic for the OP, but on the subject of an electric car, they are planning that advances in the availability of electric components will allow them to buy in what they need which I expect will be the case. But they've still got to design a new successful electric sports car and find a successful market niche for it. Does IVA cover electric cars at the moment I wonder?
For the ice, you couldn't cost effectively manufacturer 500-1000 engines a year even if you got the rights. Might look more feasible if you found an additional market for them, but you'd need scale to make that work.
For the ice, you couldn't cost effectively manufacturer 500-1000 engines a year even if you got the rights. Might look more feasible if you found an additional market for them, but you'd need scale to make that work.
Back when they were working with Renault/Alpine I wondered if we'd see a move to Renault supplied engines.
I've had a few RenaultSports, and while they're all turbocharged, the 1.6 in the Clio 220 Trophy was very linear in it's delivery - though nowhere as sonically exciting as an N/A Sigma or Duratec. I suspect a retuned N/A version would have worked rather well.
I'm actually a little surprised they didn't make a move to the newer Mazda SkyActiv range given they're all N/A too.
I wonder if Caterham were hoping to ride out the decade on a supply of Ford engines before going EV?
I've had a few RenaultSports, and while they're all turbocharged, the 1.6 in the Clio 220 Trophy was very linear in it's delivery - though nowhere as sonically exciting as an N/A Sigma or Duratec. I suspect a retuned N/A version would have worked rather well.
I'm actually a little surprised they didn't make a move to the newer Mazda SkyActiv range given they're all N/A too.
I wonder if Caterham were hoping to ride out the decade on a supply of Ford engines before going EV?
BertBert said:
IIRC from the evening with caterham management session referred to, they talked about getting the 485 approved as one of the biggest jobs they've done and was all consuming for them to the exclusion of many other priorities.
If by "blocked" you mean they deliberately held it up, you are very much mistaken.
One view is that despite a huge order book, caterham are in deep st in so many ways. Their engine supply situation is parlous, they can't make money from the cars they can make and there isn't a hope in hell of them making an all new electric car and being successful with it.
Good bunch of guys and I wish them well. They've let the marketing run away with itself and have got too many variants to deal with. Hopefully they can simplify, get quality up and throughput up to give them room to work on the future.
Just my view of course.
Bert
From a UK perspective it's hard to understand exactly what they've been developing for the last 5-10 years. Apart from the Suzuki engined cars (of absolutely no interest to me, and I can't even understand why you'd want one) the model range is pretty much unchanged, dropping of the 6 speed gearbox and large price increases apart.If by "blocked" you mean they deliberately held it up, you are very much mistaken.
One view is that despite a huge order book, caterham are in deep s
t in so many ways. Their engine supply situation is parlous, they can't make money from the cars they can make and there isn't a hope in hell of them making an all new electric car and being successful with it.Good bunch of guys and I wish them well. They've let the marketing run away with itself and have got too many variants to deal with. Hopefully they can simplify, get quality up and throughput up to give them room to work on the future.
Just my view of course.
Bert
Olivera said:
From a UK perspective it's hard to understand exactly what they've been developing for the last 5-10 years. Apart from the Suzuki engined cars (of absolutely no interest to me, and I can't even understand why you'd want one) the model range is pretty much unchanged, dropping of the 6 speed gearbox and large price increases apart.
I think that the number of variants is actually massive if you look at the different options, the efforts to go leather and wood inside etc. Each car has to be picked by hand and assembled to order. That I think is where the inefficiency sits.BertBert said:
Each car has to be picked by hand and assembled to order. That I think is where the inefficiency sits.
Hasn't it always been like that though?Mine's a 2009 Roadsport 140 on the log book and chassis plate, but it's basically a Superlight in every way except for the engine. The options list for Caterham has always been huge, and no two are ever quite the same. But even with the 'S' and 'R' packs, it's still just another take on the old Superlight/Supersport/Roadsport.
I think you're right about the cosmetic options adding more complexity though. I guess that's aiming for the higher end market.
BertBert said:
I think that the number of variants is actually massive if you look at the different options, the efforts to go leather and wood inside etc. Each car has to be picked by hand and assembled to order. That I think is where the inefficiency sits.
I would assume that Caterham know what they're doing in this regard by now, that is (like big OEMs) much of the revenue/profit sits in the markup of packs and optional extras. So yes there might be some inefficiencies in stocking parts and building these cars, but overall the extra revenue makes it very much worthwhile.My point was more the lack of development of core models and drivetrains, from what I can see there has been very little in the last 10 years. I looked back earlier to the hype when the 620 was launched, but that was back in 2013/14, since then there's been pretty much nothing other than dropping the very useful 6 speed gearbox.
Olivera said:
I would assume that Caterham know what they're doing in this regard by now, that is (like big OEMs) much of the revenue/profit sits in the markup of packs and optional extras. So yes there might be some inefficiencies in stocking parts and building these cars, but overall the extra revenue makes it very much worthwhile.
My point was more the lack of development of core models and drivetrains, from what I can see there has been very little in the last 10 years. I looked back earlier to the hype when the 620 was launched, but that was back in 2013/14, since then there's been pretty much nothing other than dropping the very useful 6 speed gearbox.
In which case why is their production so slow, and there is no profit?My point was more the lack of development of core models and drivetrains, from what I can see there has been very little in the last 10 years. I looked back earlier to the hype when the 620 was launched, but that was back in 2013/14, since then there's been pretty much nothing other than dropping the very useful 6 speed gearbox.
re the core models, there is no dev to do, nothing left to invent other than more variations around a theme... until they can get their heads above water and decide how to take the brand forward.
Ah damn ! , Caterham is having difficulty validating the 485 engine, and also difficulties after covid and Ukraine, price inflation, and manufacturing delays, and low inventory.
So this means that when they receive the agreement on the low pollution 2 liters Duratec engine, there will be a long time to wait before receiving this car, maybe in 2024?!
:-( (
So this means that when they receive the agreement on the low pollution 2 liters Duratec engine, there will be a long time to wait before receiving this car, maybe in 2024?!
:-( (
number2 said:
What's the deal with the 485? Is it only available in some countries and not others, or was it pulled following a change in EU regs?
Also, why haven't we got the 485 engine if it's cleaner and more powerful than our 2.0l duratech?!
afaik, 485 is a 2L duratec (mine is), it could very well be the 620's without the chargerAlso, why haven't we got the 485 engine if it's cleaner and more powerful than our 2.0l duratech?!
nunuk said:
number2 said:
What's the deal with the 485? Is it only available in some countries and not others, or was it pulled following a change in EU regs?
Also, why haven't we got the 485 engine if it's cleaner and more powerful than our 2.0l duratech?!
afaik, 485 is a 2L duratec (mine is), it could very well be the 620's without the chargerAlso, why haven't we got the 485 engine if it's cleaner and more powerful than our 2.0l duratech?!
Yup it's a 2.0l duratec but it's faster.
Electronically activated throttle bodies (for emissions I imagine) and a sports button (probably also for emissions
)https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/ca...
moivre said:
yes BertBert , I have placed an order/pre-order since September 2022, but I may try to cancel it because it is too long and too uncertain, both in time and in price (the CO2 rejection penalty would increase to €20,000 in 2024 instead of 15,000 in 2022) for example
Yes, tricky. Have you got an indication of delivery date from Caterham?number2 said:
Oops, 'duratec'.
Yup it's a 2.0l duratec but it's faster.
Electronically activated throttle bodies (for emissions I imagine) and a sports button (probably also for emissions)
https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/ca...
Probably the reason we can't have it in the UK is that it is reserved for the markets that need it for some reason. Limited availability of specific parts or maybe there's more cost for not enough benefit in the UK (as other options are available)?Yup it's a 2.0l duratec but it's faster.
Electronically activated throttle bodies (for emissions I imagine) and a sports button (probably also for emissions
)https://www.pistonheads.com/news/ph-britishcars/ca...
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