Building Up a Top Notch Car Sim Cockpit

[m4tti]

skinny said:

Do you really need a hydraulic pedal? A lot of people are quite happy with a load cell brake

Ok I'm a complete noddy when it comes to simulators. What's the difference between hydraulic and load cell.

[ROSSinHD]

I love my sim racing. Iracing, Assetto Corsa and Dirt Rally for me. I spent a few hours the other night when my son was in bed and the wife was at the cinema trying to knock of 10ths of seconds going up Pikes Peak. Great fun.

My rig is currently based on space saving as I share the third room with the wifes beauty products and the orientation does't allow for a full rig.It works for me at the minute and I am staying put until we are evicted from the room if / when we have a second child and then I am converting a quarter of the garage that will adjoin the rear entry door to a dedicated sim racing room.

I bought a Logitech G920 package a year or so ago and it was a cheap entry to see if I really liked sim racing at home and it was a yes but the Logitech offering is basic, non upgradable etc.

I moved to a Thurstmaster eco system a few weeks back, The TX base and standard rim, TH8A shifter with a Sparco knob and T3PA Pro Pedals (invested) and conical brake mod all seated on a GT Omega Wheel stand, whilst still very much a consumer product it beats the Logitech offering hands down and does me fine for blasts round a track and also focused racing.



I simply slide this over to a central position and race. (excuse the shifter orientation, it is currently in analogue mod as a handbrake for Dirt), The only thing this set up needs as a must is a change of rim at the standard offering is a let down. The new Thrustmaster Sparco rim is very very nice at £190.

My PC is a modest, EVGA 980 reference OC and a i5-6600k overclocked to 4.1 with 16g of RAM. runs all my sims as they should be run and runs my Oculus just fine (however I am hankering for a 1080 when / if prices become more attractive)

My ideal set up would be a direct drive base, nice alcantara wheel 30 or 32cms, if I am honest I love the pro pedals and don't see me needing anything else, Fanatec shifter and handbrake as I love the mounting options for both of those items, if you wanted to go top draw you can buy sim shifters from Quaife!!. I decent rig \ seat, 3 40inch screens,a trio of independant Sim racing hardware displays showing digital gear position, speed and revs ( currently use sim racing dash on my old galaxy s7 which works fine), and a nice set up of buttkickers or similar. With my current PC and presuming I have a 1080 by then and VR is still current generation I estimate I will need £4k to get there.

I had a go on a great sim a few years years back at EGX (excuse the driving, at this point I had never driven a sim) it had motion and a 3 projector set up. Looks like a mix of Fanatec and Thrustmaster I think. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWMp-rZC4KI&in...

One last link to an amazing detailed set up. (too much LED and aweful shifter knob though) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJcQvXuHxkg&t=...

Edited by ROSSinHD on Saturday 2nd December 08:16

Edited by ROSSinHD on Saturday 2nd December 10:18

[King Herald]

A guy I worked offshore with built a system (half of it done offshore)..... but it was pretty much a full single seater cockpit made from plywood, proper car seat, proper Wilwood style variable resistance pedal box, flat screen tv in the right place, painted and upholstered tidily, I only ever saw photos of it but it really looked the business. It sat behind the sofa in his front room, ready to be pulled out whenever the wife went shopping.

Last I heard he was playing with some system linked mechanically to the steering wheel, so the body moved a bit as the wheel turned.

[m4tti]

Just signed up to “sim racing market”.

Stupid question but how are VR sims used how does the equipment requirement differ to a normal sim.

[SturdyHSV]

Using a VR headset instead of a monitor (or monitors) is just a matter of displays. The rest of the equipment is identical. You'll want a decent graphics card and a decent CPU (for physics / AI calculations with big grids)

Consumer level equipment you're talking Logitech, Thrustmaster and Fanatec (in that price order)

I cannot emphasise enough how much VR adds to sim racing. Honestly, cannot stress that enough. It is everything. I have had one of these for about 7 years now (same wheel as pictured in fact, just an old Logitech G25)



That sits basically nose on to a 50" TV, so it's actually a pretty good size match and obviously reasonably immersive, but nothing even comes vaguely close to VR for things like driving games (or flight sims) when you also have the hardware in your hands. It also means you can get away with not having your ridiculous racing seat contraption right in the middle in front of the screen all the time and avoid having to move it about.

I think realistically you could spend

About £1,200 on a PC (1070 or 1080 gfx card)
£400 on an Oculus Rift
~£150 on a wheelstand pro or equivalent to start with (like this http://wheelstandpro.com/products/wheel-stand-pro-...
And then whatever steering wheel / pedals you fancy (probably fanatec as they have better pedal options and you're not too fussed on budget)

I imagine you'll be extremely satisfied with a combo like that (the VR alone will blow your mind) and then if you still want to go ballistic on SERIOUS hardware, your fanatec stuff will either serve as a useful backup, or fetch reasonable money on ebay once you've upgraded.

Once you do decide to go nuts, you'll want some bits like this:

https://heusinkveld.com/products/sim-pedals/sim-pe...

http://www.pro-sim.co.uk/shop/shifters/h-pattern-s...

https://sim-pli.city/collections/all/products/sw28... (as at £3k the leo bodnar is probably well in to the diminishing returns category!)

Game wise, iRacing is a lot of money (monthly subscription, stop paying and it all goes away) for what it is. Yes, it means you're racing with grown ups but you can get that with leagues and things online without having to pay for it. It depends if you're in it for the driving or for the racing.

Sim wise, realistically you're looking at:

Assetto Corsa
Dirt Rally
iRacing
rFactor2

There are others, Automobilista, Live For Speed, RaceRoom Race Experience etc. but the communities end up so small that you'll be struggling for online competition if that's your thing.

Personally, I play Assetto Corsa mostly. I don't even bother with online, the driving is so enjoyable and the AI reasonably decent to give me a racing fix if needed. Dirt Rally is magical because of the sound and stage design, and Live For Speed somehow just 'feels' like you're working with real tyres, but it's a very old game now.

Enjoy

[m4tti]

SturdyHSV said:

Using a VR headset instead of a monitor (or monitors) is just a matter of displays. The rest of the equipment is identical. You'll want a decent graphics card and a decent CPU (for physics / AI calculations with big grids)

Consumer level equipment you're talking Logitech, Thrustmaster and Fanatec (in that price order)

I cannot emphasise enough how much VR adds to sim racing. Honestly, cannot stress that enough. It is everything. I have had one of these for about 7 years now (same wheel as pictured in fact, just an old Logitech G25)



That sits basically nose on to a 50" TV, so it's actually a pretty good size match and obviously reasonably immersive, but nothing even comes vaguely close to VR for things like driving games (or flight sims) when you also have the hardware in your hands. It also means you can get away with not having your ridiculous racing seat contraption right in the middle in front of the screen all the time and avoid having to move it about.

I think realistically you could spend

About £1,200 on a PC (1070 or 1080 gfx card)
£400 on an Oculus Rift
~£150 on a wheelstand pro or equivalent to start with (like this http://wheelstandpro.com/products/wheel-stand-pro-...
And then whatever steering wheel / pedals you fancy (probably fanatec as they have better pedal options and you're not too fussed on budget)

I imagine you'll be extremely satisfied with a combo like that (the VR alone will blow your mind) and then if you still want to go ballistic on SERIOUS hardware, your fanatec stuff will either serve as a useful backup, or fetch reasonable money on ebay once you've upgraded.

Once you do decide to go nuts, you'll want some bits like this:

https://heusinkveld.com/products/sim-pedals/sim-pe...

http://www.pro-sim.co.uk/shop/shifters/h-pattern-s...

https://sim-pli.city/collections/all/products/sw28... (as at £3k the leo bodnar is probably well in to the diminishing returns category!)

Game wise, iRacing is a lot of money (monthly subscription, stop paying and it all goes away) for what it is. Yes, it means you're racing with grown ups but you can get that with leagues and things online without having to pay for it. It depends if you're in it for the driving or for the racing.

Sim wise, realistically you're looking at:

Assetto Corsa
Dirt Rally
iRacing
rFactor2

There are others, Automobilista, Live For Speed, RaceRoom Race Experience etc. but the communities end up so small that you'll be struggling for online competition if that's your thing.

Personally, I play Assetto Corsa mostly. I don't even bother with online, the driving is so enjoyable and the AI reasonably decent to give me a racing fix if needed. Dirt Rally is magical because of the sound and stage design, and Live For Speed somehow just 'feels' like you're working with real tyres, but it's a very old game now.

Enjoy

Top stuff that is very interesting. With a Vr setup do you totally dispense with a monitor through the headset. You literally don’t need it again.

That set up looks spot on. I would like hydraulic pedals to get that real braking feel.

[SturdyHSV]

m4tti said:

Top stuff that is very interesting. With a Vr setup do you totally dispense with a monitor through the headset. You literally don’t need it again.

That set up looks spot on. I would like hydraulic pedals to get that real braking feel.

Real braking feel is a hard thing to quantify. Ultimately you can get gradiated resistance and initial bite and very high pedal loads without requiring a hydraulic system on the end of the pedal. It may be worth trying some alternatives out (and a hydraulic one too if at all possible) to see if it is actually worth the difference.

You need the monitor for the game menus and such, but to actually drive you don't need to be anywhere near the PC. The headphones on the Oculus are surprisingly good too (despite looking like an after thought), I don't bother using my surround sound any more as they're more than up to the task 99% of the time.

Although on occasion it's nice to be able to FEEL the engine noise

The thing with VR is that the actual physical setup becomes largely irrelevant. People have invested thousands in huge triple monitor arrays, LED displays, tablets with additional data on etc. and realistically, they're all rendered irrelevant by putting on a headset, as then you're actually sat in the car... There really is no comparison, the extra amount of movement of the car you can 'feel', the ability to place the car so close to walls / apexes, the fact that the opponents are actually car sized and right next to you, the fact you can glance to your left / right to see where they are or look in your mirrors, the fact that you can see elevation, you could spend as much as you wanted on monitors and you'd still not come even vaguely close to £400 worth of headset.

I've been driving the Nurburgring in games since 2004, and yet until driving it in VR I had absolutely no clue how much the elevation changed and how steep some sections are. Bathurst, Spa, all tracks that are defined by their topography, and yet on a flat screen, trust me, you've no idea

Once the resolution / screen door effect is totally overcome (personally I find it absolutely fine with the release version of the rift, whereas the dev kit I couldn't put up with) I can't imagine why anyone would use a monitor.

[King Herald]

SturdyHSV said:

Real braking feel is a hard thing to quantify. Ultimately you can get gradiated resistance and initial bite and very high pedal loads without requiring a hydraulic system on the end of the pedal. It may be worth trying some alternatives out (and a hydraulic one too if at all possible) to see if it is actually worth the difference.
.

I wonder how having a brake pedal configured to mechanically lean your whole cockpit forward as you press it would work, because that is how they get the stopping effect in those virtual reality 3d type cocoon things, they simply lean them forward.

If ever I build one I shall experiment with something like that.

[Rick101]

Love my VR. When the next version is available, I will be one of the first to purchase.

Absolutely worth every penny. Fantastic bit of kit.

[skinny]

m4tti said:

skinny said:

Do you really need a hydraulic pedal? A lot of people are quite happy with a load cell brake

Ok I'm a complete noddy when it comes to simulators. What's the difference between hydraulic and load cell.

conventionally you just measure pedal displacement and use a spring or rubber dropper to provide the resistance.
A load cell just measures the force you put into the pedal directly.
A hydraulic set up you'll have a master cylinder feeding a caliper that clamps pads onto a disc. You'll then either measure pedal movement or hydraulic pressure.

[julian64]

skinny said:

conventionally you just measure pedal displacement and use a spring or rubber dropper to provide the resistance.
A load cell just measures the force you put into the pedal directly.
A hydraulic set up you'll have a master cylinder feeding a caliper that clamps pads onto a disc. You'll then either measure pedal movement or hydraulic pressure.

Surely though the problem with using a load cell is that the pedal wouldn't move. If you put a spring behind the pedal the load cell would simply be measuring the spring pressure as you apply more pressure with your foot.

I therefore don't understand how using a load cell gives any benefit over using a spring and measuring movement.

[m4tti]

SturdyHSV said:

Real braking feel is a hard thing to quantify. Ultimately you can get gradiated resistance and initial bite and very high pedal loads without requiring a hydraulic system on the end of the pedal. It may be worth trying some alternatives out (and a hydraulic one too if at all possible) to see if it is actually worth the difference.

You need the monitor for the game menus and such, but to actually drive you don't need to be anywhere near the PC. The headphones on the Oculus are surprisingly good too (despite looking like an after thought), I don't bother using my surround sound any more as they're more than up to the task 99% of the time.

Although on occasion it's nice to be able to FEEL the engine noise

The thing with VR is that the actual physical setup becomes largely irrelevant. People have invested thousands in huge triple monitor arrays, LED displays, tablets with additional data on etc. and realistically, they're all rendered irrelevant by putting on a headset, as then you're actually sat in the car... There really is no comparison, the extra amount of movement of the car you can 'feel', the ability to place the car so close to walls / apexes, the fact that the opponents are actually car sized and right next to you, the fact you can glance to your left / right to see where they are or look in your mirrors, the fact that you can see elevation, you could spend as much as you wanted on monitors and you'd still not come even vaguely close to £400 worth of headset.

I've been driving the Nurburgring in games since 2004, and yet until driving it in VR I had absolutely no clue how much the elevation changed and how steep some sections are. Bathurst, Spa, all tracks that are defined by their topography, and yet on a flat screen, trust me, you've no idea

Once the resolution / screen door effect is totally overcome (personally I find it absolutely fine with the release version of the rift, whereas the dev kit I couldn't put up with) I can't imagine why anyone would use a monitor.

Thanks for this, now makes a lot more sense. What actual game are you using the VR set up with.

[skinny]

julian64 said:

skinny said:

conventionally you just measure pedal displacement and use a spring or rubber dropper to provide the resistance.
A load cell just measures the force you put into the pedal directly.
A hydraulic set up you'll have a master cylinder feeding a caliper that clamps pads onto a disc. You'll then either measure pedal movement or hydraulic pressure.

Surely though the problem with using a load cell is that the pedal wouldn't move. If you put a spring behind the pedal the load cell would simply be measuring the spring pressure as you apply more pressure with your foot.

I therefore don't understand how using a load cell gives any benefit over using a spring and measuring movement.

People that like them say its more realistic as it's pressure on the brake pedal rather than displacement that creates braking and also that it's easier to modulate force than distance.

I've never tried it, i just know that more "sim racers" tend to go this way.

For me, I run a double spring set up with a rubber cone in the middle and go on normal pedal displacement - its stiff enough for me to give a good feel and there is enough resolution in the pedal set for accuracy even with the reduced movement from the rubber cone stopper.

[SturdyHSV]

m4tti said:

Thanks for this, now makes a lot more sense. What actual game are you using the VR set up with.

I'm using it with Assetto Corsa almost exclusively at the moment. There's such a large modding community that there's really a wealth of content available (mostly free) that really adds a lot to the game in terms of variety. You can create some brilliantly varied grids with all sorts of classic metal against modern stuff, or have a full grid of '67 F1 cars racing around Spa as it was in' 66. That's quite intense in VR

[Monty Python]

If you want the best pedal/wheel then look no further than Fanatec

[ape x]

Massive sim racing fan here, done the track days done karting, spent loads on it but started to get a bit more serious with sim racing when i got a PC this year finally.

I went out a got 2nd hand PC for £400, GTX 1060 intel i3 4130 CPU.
No in no way is that a recommendation, everyone on line said it wasn't possible to even play pac man with that CPU....but it works brilliantly for me.
I'd recommend going better like i5 CPU which is what i will do after Christmas. But for now it works great.
For me it was possible to do it without breaking the bank and i'm happy with that.

I already had the Thrustmaster wheel and game seat, proper metal thing looks like a go kart chassis!
Big TV love it.

The big thing about tracks cars / racing is that once you get the kit for sim racing you don't really have any consumables. so you could get a track car for 1000, 2000 quid but then you have tyres, track day fees, travel, etc etc....

For me with 2 young kids it was a no brainer, going off to do track days or karting was getting less fun as spending time away from the family. With sim racing i can get the similar feelings but can do it at anytime.

I'd say go for it, don't think any enjoyment is out of reach unless you are spending 15k on a full set up, its simply not true.
It's like reality, i've had more fun in a £500 saxo stripped out on a track day going over the limits of the car than a few guys had in their 50k road cars as they pootled round....

Games wise fill your boots
RFactor 2
Raceroom
Assetto corsa
Pcars
Automobilista
DiRT rally

plus loads of old classics around on steam...enjoy!

[RacerMDR]

great thread chaps - thank you for the info so far.

I can see you guys use this for realistic racing etc.

Does anyone use it for pre (real life) racing Simulator?

I.e. - next year - my calendar........if I wanted to go and get a UK or European track at will, without any game playing first.

Do any of the games offer the main UK tracks (i.e. all of them) - Snett, Brands, Silverstone, Knockhill, Coombe, Cadwell etc etc

I quick good tells me some of the games offer some of them?

[julian64]

I was playing project cars last night with a G25 and three 26" screens set to 5760x1080.

I love the fact that you actually have to use the clutch to change gear and can blip the throttle. I don't like simulators with flappy paddles only or just a brake and accelerator. I was showing my 16 year old son how to heel and toe. If you don't use the clutch you hear the sound of crashing gears and the thing doesn't change.

Limitations are that you don't get penalised for not proper rev matching and the AI isn't that good.

I therefore don't think you have to spend big bucks mine is a i7 6800K running at 4.6Ghz watercooled with a 980ti

One of the reason I got it in the first place was that I live next to brands hatch, and it is very good for learning the lines prior to a trackday.

Wish I could find a set of TVR's including a Cerbera for it though.

[Monty Python]

RacerMDR said:

great thread chaps - thank you for the info so far.

I can see you guys use this for realistic racing etc.

Does anyone use it for pre (real life) racing Simulator?

I.e. - next year - my calendar........if I wanted to go and get a UK or European track at will, without any game playing first.

Do any of the games offer the main UK tracks (i.e. all of them) - Snett, Brands, Silverstone, Knockhill, Coombe, Cadwell etc etc

I quick good tells me some of the games offer some of them?

Full track list for PC2: https://www.carthrottle.com/post/this-is-the-full-...

[m4tti]

julian64 said:

I was playing project cars last night with a G25 and three 26" screens set to 5760x1080.

I love the fact that you actually have to use the clutch to change gear and can blip the throttle. I don't like simulators with flappy paddles only or just a brake and accelerator. I was showing my 16 year old son how to heel and toe. If you don't use the clutch you hear the sound of crashing gears and the thing doesn't change.

Limitations are that you don't get penalised for not proper rev matching and the AI isn't that good.

I therefore don't think you have to spend big bucks mine is a i7 6800K running at 4.6Ghz watercooled with a 980ti

One of the reason I got it in the first place was that I live next to brands hatch, and it is very good for learning the lines prior to a trackday.

Wish I could find a set of TVR's including a Cerbera for it though.

Interesting you should mention that, I drove at IZone driver training and they had the Tvr T440r lemans thingy, but none of the road cars.