Building Up a Top Notch Car Sim Cockpit
Discussion
SturdyHSV said:
Using a VR headset instead of a monitor (or monitors) is just a matter of displays. The rest of the equipment is identical. You'll want a decent graphics card and a decent CPU (for physics / AI calculations with big grids)
Consumer level equipment you're talking Logitech, Thrustmaster and Fanatec (in that price order)
I cannot emphasise enough how much VR adds to sim racing. Honestly, cannot stress that enough. It is everything. I have had one of these for about 7 years now (same wheel as pictured in fact, just an old Logitech G25)
That sits basically nose on to a 50" TV, so it's actually a pretty good size match and obviously reasonably immersive, but nothing even comes vaguely close to VR for things like driving games (or flight sims) when you also have the hardware in your hands. It also means you can get away with not having your ridiculous racing seat contraption right in the middle in front of the screen all the time and avoid having to move it about.
I think realistically you could spend
About £1,200 on a PC (1070 or 1080 gfx card)
£400 on an Oculus Rift
~£150 on a wheelstand pro or equivalent to start with (like this http://wheelstandpro.com/products/wheel-stand-pro-...
And then whatever steering wheel / pedals you fancy (probably fanatec as they have better pedal options and you're not too fussed on budget)
I imagine you'll be extremely satisfied with a combo like that (the VR alone will blow your mind) and then if you still want to go ballistic on SERIOUS hardware, your fanatec stuff will either serve as a useful backup, or fetch reasonable money on ebay once you've upgraded.
Once you do decide to go nuts, you'll want some bits like this:
https://heusinkveld.com/products/sim-pedals/sim-pe...
http://www.pro-sim.co.uk/shop/shifters/h-pattern-s...
https://sim-pli.city/collections/all/products/sw28... (as at £3k the leo bodnar is probably well in to the diminishing returns category!)
Game wise, iRacing is a lot of money (monthly subscription, stop paying and it all goes away) for what it is. Yes, it means you're racing with grown ups but you can get that with leagues and things online without having to pay for it. It depends if you're in it for the driving or for the racing.
Sim wise, realistically you're looking at:
Assetto Corsa
Dirt Rally
iRacing
rFactor2
There are others, Automobilista, Live For Speed, RaceRoom Race Experience etc. but the communities end up so small that you'll be struggling for online competition if that's your thing.
Personally, I play Assetto Corsa mostly. I don't even bother with online, the driving is so enjoyable and the AI reasonably decent to give me a racing fix if needed. Dirt Rally is magical because of the sound and stage design, and Live For Speed somehow just 'feels' like you're working with real tyres, but it's a very old game now.
Enjoy
Apologies for going back a few posts, what make is the chassis/cock pit in the picture you’ve posted please Sturdy? Consumer level equipment you're talking Logitech, Thrustmaster and Fanatec (in that price order)
I cannot emphasise enough how much VR adds to sim racing. Honestly, cannot stress that enough. It is everything. I have had one of these for about 7 years now (same wheel as pictured in fact, just an old Logitech G25)
That sits basically nose on to a 50" TV, so it's actually a pretty good size match and obviously reasonably immersive, but nothing even comes vaguely close to VR for things like driving games (or flight sims) when you also have the hardware in your hands. It also means you can get away with not having your ridiculous racing seat contraption right in the middle in front of the screen all the time and avoid having to move it about.
I think realistically you could spend
About £1,200 on a PC (1070 or 1080 gfx card)
£400 on an Oculus Rift
~£150 on a wheelstand pro or equivalent to start with (like this http://wheelstandpro.com/products/wheel-stand-pro-...
And then whatever steering wheel / pedals you fancy (probably fanatec as they have better pedal options and you're not too fussed on budget)
I imagine you'll be extremely satisfied with a combo like that (the VR alone will blow your mind) and then if you still want to go ballistic on SERIOUS hardware, your fanatec stuff will either serve as a useful backup, or fetch reasonable money on ebay once you've upgraded.
Once you do decide to go nuts, you'll want some bits like this:
https://heusinkveld.com/products/sim-pedals/sim-pe...
http://www.pro-sim.co.uk/shop/shifters/h-pattern-s...
https://sim-pli.city/collections/all/products/sw28... (as at £3k the leo bodnar is probably well in to the diminishing returns category!)
Game wise, iRacing is a lot of money (monthly subscription, stop paying and it all goes away) for what it is. Yes, it means you're racing with grown ups but you can get that with leagues and things online without having to pay for it. It depends if you're in it for the driving or for the racing.
Sim wise, realistically you're looking at:
Assetto Corsa
Dirt Rally
iRacing
rFactor2
There are others, Automobilista, Live For Speed, RaceRoom Race Experience etc. but the communities end up so small that you'll be struggling for online competition if that's your thing.
Personally, I play Assetto Corsa mostly. I don't even bother with online, the driving is so enjoyable and the AI reasonably decent to give me a racing fix if needed. Dirt Rally is magical because of the sound and stage design, and Live For Speed somehow just 'feels' like you're working with real tyres, but it's a very old game now.
Enjoy
m4tti said:
Apologies for going back a few posts, what make is the chassis/cock pit in the picture you’ve posted please Sturdy?
No problem at all. It's a VisionRacer VR3. If you're going for realism, I wouldn't say it's your best bet. It's quite an old rig and it's very much designed around the G25. Just from a pedal / shifter mounting point of view, it would probably limit your options.
In reply to an earlier poster, yes, the Fanatec pedals are very good, but they are by no means a 'look no further' sort of purchase. The Heusinkveld pedals I linked to earlier for example are an entirely different level of kit, but very much in the diminishing returns area as a lot of this stuff tends to be...
On that note, there is a LOT of snobbery in the sim world and a lot of people justifying their own purchases (as with all enthusiast markets), so it can be hard to get an honest review (fortunately my purchases were all ages ago so I don't really care that they're well below par now
). The guy at 'Sim Racing Garage' on youtube has been somewhat spoiled by access to such high quality gear, so I think he does tend to fall down on the 'well the best is the best, the rest is pointless, regardless of cost' side of reviewing, but his reviews are incredibly thorough, and he has at least sampled pretty much everything available (to borderline mind numbing detail) so at least you can probably get an idea of what is 'best'
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCT_50ZiRFWSm7oziV...
For me, the VR side of things has totally transformed sim racing though in terms of immersion. I mean, I've had a lot of fun over the years in my racing seat, but nothing has even come close to that actual feeling of 'presence' inside an actual car. Having done some track days and rally experience days etc. obviously nothing quite compares to the physical Gs of being on a track, but the mentality, the mental engagement of piloting a machine around a track reaches a significantly higher level with a VR headset, and I think if you had a fixed budget for a sim racing set-up, you'd be infinitely better off getting a £125 TH8A shifter with an Oculus Rift and suitable graphics card, compared to spending £1,300 or so on the Quaife built gearshift system I linked to earlier and a 65" 4K monitor.
EDIT:
Also, something I forgot to mention, Assetto Corsa has very good official / mod versions of most of the UK tracks (Brands Hatch, Snetterton, Donington, Cadwell, Oulton, Silverstone). I'd personally vouch for all of those, I've not tried the Thruxton mod yet and there's a Bedford Autodrome being worked on currently, which is something you're never going to get in iRacing...
Just to keep harping on about this, but in my humble opinion, you will not learn a track properly on a flat monitor. the undulations and gradients etc. are a huge part of most of the UK tracks, and I'm sorry but you simply do not have any idea what they're like on a flat monitor. As I hinted at earlier, despite having blasted around the Nurburgring since 2004, the first lap in VR was like a totally different track, I barely recognised it. You may think you can see the rises and falls and so on, and you can, but that sort of natural recognition of a place as if you've been there, to recognise hills and dips and understand why the car gets light etc. you NEED VR for that, it really is a whole different thing
Edited by SturdyHSV on Monday 4th December 19:14
m4tti said:
I like the look of that chassis though. Looks strong.
Yep all over the VR thing. Been watching the YouTube vids and selling it to the home boss.
She’ll be happier with the VR as she doesn’t want lots of screens. Win win
It's strong with regards to the rig itself doesn't move about, and the pedals are extremely secure. The wheel mount has some give in it (the G25 only produces about 2.5Nm of torque apparently, a fancy direct drive servo wheel can be up to 28Nm, so I imagine that would expose more of this weakness...) and equally the shifter mount has a little flex to it (less of an issue when driving).Yep all over the VR thing. Been watching the YouTube vids and selling it to the home boss.
She’ll be happier with the VR as she doesn’t want lots of screens. Win win
On the plus side it does look the part
Something like this is 'cheaper' (although no seat / mounts) and will be significantly more adjustable and stronger, but it is ultimately a bunch of aluminium box section...
https://sim-lab.eu/product/sim-racing-rig-gt1/
If you weren't all the way down in Kent (I'm by Northampton) I'd suggest you pop over and give it a go, it'd be a good sample of the bottom end of the range wheel wise but with the benefit of VR and a proper seat etc.
Couple of places i found useful, that you might too (sorry if mentioned already)
http://www.racedepartment.com/
http://www.isrtv.com/ - though seems to have gone quiet of late (lots of wheel review vids)
I have a MK1 MX5 track day car but its much easier (and warmer) to "play" at racing from home. I am at the pauper end of the scale with a Sony TV (donated), a second TV (that used to be in kitchen - i now run SIMHUB on it) Logitech wheel (circa 1999), a seat (Obutto) that some kind man on here was giving away, and a wooden frame that cost me £20 plus bits from the shed. The keyboard is angled on a bit of wood with a hinge flipped back. PC came from a recyling company for £150 (Dell Xeon quad core thing) and has a 970 graphics card which i had to pay actual money for from Amazon!
I play Richard Burns rally (20%) and Automobilista - AMS (80%) and thanks to modders most tracks are available (on top of the mostly Brazilian ones that come with AMS). Its graphics are not the best BUT i think the feel etc is most like being on track. its also pretty cheap on Steam for the season pass (perpetual ownership of game and all official add-ons), and new version is meant to come next year. Importantly the guys who make it are very personable and active on their site https://forum.reizastudios.com/
However as others have said, there are many decent PC sims out there. Good luck with whichever route you take.
Gratuitous pic of my setup attached
http://www.racedepartment.com/
http://www.isrtv.com/ - though seems to have gone quiet of late (lots of wheel review vids)
I have a MK1 MX5 track day car but its much easier (and warmer) to "play" at racing from home. I am at the pauper end of the scale with a Sony TV (donated), a second TV (that used to be in kitchen - i now run SIMHUB on it) Logitech wheel (circa 1999), a seat (Obutto) that some kind man on here was giving away, and a wooden frame that cost me £20 plus bits from the shed. The keyboard is angled on a bit of wood with a hinge flipped back. PC came from a recyling company for £150 (Dell Xeon quad core thing) and has a 970 graphics card which i had to pay actual money for from Amazon!
I play Richard Burns rally (20%) and Automobilista - AMS (80%) and thanks to modders most tracks are available (on top of the mostly Brazilian ones that come with AMS). Its graphics are not the best BUT i think the feel etc is most like being on track. its also pretty cheap on Steam for the season pass (perpetual ownership of game and all official add-ons), and new version is meant to come next year. Importantly the guys who make it are very personable and active on their site https://forum.reizastudios.com/
However as others have said, there are many decent PC sims out there. Good luck with whichever route you take.
Gratuitous pic of my setup attached
I saw this on one of the facebook groups.
https://www.boysstuff.co.uk/gaming-chairs/playseat...
Looks weird at first but as it's designed for VR it's trying to use gravity to simulate G-force.
Does a good job apparently.
https://www.boysstuff.co.uk/gaming-chairs/playseat...
Looks weird at first but as it's designed for VR it's trying to use gravity to simulate G-force.
Does a good job apparently.
SturdyHSV said:
It's strong with regards to the rig itself doesn't move about, and the pedals are extremely secure. The wheel mount has some give in it (the G25 only produces about 2.5Nm of torque apparently, a fancy direct drive servo wheel can be up to 28Nm, so I imagine that would expose more of this weakness...) and equally the shifter mount has a little flex to it (less of an issue when driving).
On the plus side it does look the part
Something like this is 'cheaper' (although no seat / mounts) and will be significantly more adjustable and stronger, but it is ultimately a bunch of aluminium box section...
https://sim-lab.eu/product/sim-racing-rig-gt1/
If you weren't all the way down in Kent (I'm by Northampton) I'd suggest you pop over and give it a go, it'd be a good sample of the bottom end of the range wheel wise but with the benefit of VR and a proper seat etc.
Thanks Sturdy very generous of you to offer. If I was closer I’d take you up on that. Happy though just to have your info.On the plus side it does look the part
Something like this is 'cheaper' (although no seat / mounts) and will be significantly more adjustable and stronger, but it is ultimately a bunch of aluminium box section...
https://sim-lab.eu/product/sim-racing-rig-gt1/
If you weren't all the way down in Kent (I'm by Northampton) I'd suggest you pop over and give it a go, it'd be a good sample of the bottom end of the range wheel wise but with the benefit of VR and a proper seat etc.
The vision racer rigs do look strong even if they’re not the latest designs. I’d prefer strong to be honest. I’m fairly heavy lol
Thinking about it need to work out what to do pc wise first.
Edited by m4tti on Tuesday 5th December 07:37
. Call it an early Christmas pressyI’ve been using a vesaro rig for a few years now and I have to say it’s brilliant!
I didn’t want to spend the money for the top end direct drive wheels so went with the Fanatec option. It’s great! Brilliant feel and excellent functionality.
For the pedals I also went for the Fanatec V3 with extra brake damper. The clutch and throttle are perfect and the brake is very good, it does take a bit of getting used to where it will lock the wheels though.
I only use the iracing software as I feel all these others just feel like a game in comparison.
During winter when I’m not racing I find it really does help me keep my eye in. Even better if I’m going to a track I have driven on for a while, it’s not quite the real thing but close. Normally I find I need about 30 minutes of actual track time to feel 100% comfortable in real life, however if I have done a few hours on the sim before hand I’m pretty much there after a couple of laps.
Ps Hi Julian! Long time no see.
I didn’t want to spend the money for the top end direct drive wheels so went with the Fanatec option. It’s great! Brilliant feel and excellent functionality.
For the pedals I also went for the Fanatec V3 with extra brake damper. The clutch and throttle are perfect and the brake is very good, it does take a bit of getting used to where it will lock the wheels though.
I only use the iracing software as I feel all these others just feel like a game in comparison.
During winter when I’m not racing I find it really does help me keep my eye in. Even better if I’m going to a track I have driven on for a while, it’s not quite the real thing but close. Normally I find I need about 30 minutes of actual track time to feel 100% comfortable in real life, however if I have done a few hours on the sim before hand I’m pretty much there after a couple of laps.
Ps Hi Julian! Long time no see.
itsallyellow said:
I’ve been using a vesaro rig for a few years now and I have to say it’s brilliant!
I didn’t want to spend the money for the top end direct drive wheels so went with the Fanatec option. It’s great! Brilliant feel and excellent functionality.
For the pedals I also went for the Fanatec V3 with extra brake damper. The clutch and throttle are perfect and the brake is very good, it does take a bit of getting used to where it will lock the wheels though.
I only use the iracing software as I feel all these others just feel like a game in comparison.
During winter when I’m not racing I find it really does help me keep my eye in. Even better if I’m going to a track I have driven on for a while, it’s not quite the real thing but close. Normally I find I need about 30 minutes of actual track time to feel 100% comfortable in real life, however if I have done a few hours on the sim before hand I’m pretty much there after a couple of laps.
Ps Hi Julian! Long time no see.
Hiya mike.I didn’t want to spend the money for the top end direct drive wheels so went with the Fanatec option. It’s great! Brilliant feel and excellent functionality.
For the pedals I also went for the Fanatec V3 with extra brake damper. The clutch and throttle are perfect and the brake is very good, it does take a bit of getting used to where it will lock the wheels though.
I only use the iracing software as I feel all these others just feel like a game in comparison.
During winter when I’m not racing I find it really does help me keep my eye in. Even better if I’m going to a track I have driven on for a while, it’s not quite the real thing but close. Normally I find I need about 30 minutes of actual track time to feel 100% comfortable in real life, however if I have done a few hours on the sim before hand I’m pretty much there after a couple of laps.
Ps Hi Julian! Long time no see.
Thought about you recently when I was test driving an M4 competition pack in the local dealers. Say hello to your dad for me.
Julian
Send my regards to your dad.
Monty Python said:
Full track list for PC2: https://www.carthrottle.com/post/this-is-the-full-...
thank you - to be fair - wonderful circuit list. I'm missing Zandvoort! :-) itsallyellow said:
I’ve been using a vesaro rig for a few years now and I have to say it’s brilliant!
I didn’t want to spend the money for the top end direct drive wheels so went with the Fanatec option. It’s great! Brilliant feel and excellent functionality.
For the pedals I also went for the Fanatec V3 with extra brake damper. The clutch and throttle are perfect and the brake is very good, it does take a bit of getting used to where it will lock the wheels though.
I only use the iracing software as I feel all these others just feel like a game in comparison.
During winter when I’m not racing I find it really does help me keep my eye in. Even better if I’m going to a track I have driven on for a while, it’s not quite the real thing but close. Normally I find I need about 30 minutes of actual track time to feel 100% comfortable in real life, however if I have done a few hours on the sim before hand I’m pretty much there after a couple of laps.
Ps Hi Julian! Long time no see.
Hi Michael, which vesaro rig are you using?I didn’t want to spend the money for the top end direct drive wheels so went with the Fanatec option. It’s great! Brilliant feel and excellent functionality.
For the pedals I also went for the Fanatec V3 with extra brake damper. The clutch and throttle are perfect and the brake is very good, it does take a bit of getting used to where it will lock the wheels though.
I only use the iracing software as I feel all these others just feel like a game in comparison.
During winter when I’m not racing I find it really does help me keep my eye in. Even better if I’m going to a track I have driven on for a while, it’s not quite the real thing but close. Normally I find I need about 30 minutes of actual track time to feel 100% comfortable in real life, however if I have done a few hours on the sim before hand I’m pretty much there after a couple of laps.
Ps Hi Julian! Long time no see.
Most of the top sims are all available cheaply on steam, considering people will invest £1,000 in a steering wheel, I'd say it makes sense to spend £100 or so buying all of the top sims and seeing which you prefer.
Full disclosure, I haven't done this, so feel free to brand me a hypocrite
Some videos for your perusal, just to show the sort of variations you'll find.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJtnKL-JJXc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugRcS0d5cEo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WjCwlY2YIQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHRKXWcQzTw
I hope you have a reasonable tolerance for accents
Full disclosure, I haven't done this, so feel free to brand me a hypocrite
Some videos for your perusal, just to show the sort of variations you'll find.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJtnKL-JJXc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugRcS0d5cEo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WjCwlY2YIQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHRKXWcQzTw
I hope you have a reasonable tolerance for accents
SturdyHSV said:
Most of the top sims are all available cheaply on steam, considering people will invest £1,000 in a steering wheel, I'd say it makes sense to spend £100 or so buying all of the top sims and seeing which you prefer.
Full disclosure, I haven't done this, so feel free to brand me a hypocrite
Some videos for your perusal, just to show the sort of variations you'll find.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJtnKL-JJXc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugRcS0d5cEo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WjCwlY2YIQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHRKXWcQzTw
I hope you have a reasonable tolerance for accents
Spot on advice. Once i got my PC i got all the sims available even iRacing (let my sub lapse though now), its well worth getting them all for example:Full disclosure, I haven't done this, so feel free to brand me a hypocrite
Some videos for your perusal, just to show the sort of variations you'll find.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJtnKL-JJXc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugRcS0d5cEo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WjCwlY2YIQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHRKXWcQzTw
I hope you have a reasonable tolerance for accents
RFactor 2 i got for £11.99 in steam sale
Automobilista got it for £17 which came with ALL the DLC
PCars 2 £26 steam sale
Assetto corsa £22 plus all DLC steam sale
DiRT rally £7.99 steam sale
Most i spent was Raceroom at £90 for everything... a lot but then its the one i play the most.
ape x said:
Spot on advice. Once i got my PC i got all the sims available even iRacing (let my sub lapse though now), its well worth getting them all for example:
RFactor 2 i got for £11.99 in steam sale
Automobilista got it for £17 which came with ALL the DLC
PCars 2 £26 steam sale
Assetto corsa £22 plus all DLC steam sale
DiRT rally £7.99 steam sale
Most i spent was Raceroom at £90 for everything... a lot but then its the one i play the most.
Of all of those which has the best AI?RFactor 2 i got for £11.99 in steam sale
Automobilista got it for £17 which came with ALL the DLC
PCars 2 £26 steam sale
Assetto corsa £22 plus all DLC steam sale
DiRT rally £7.99 steam sale
Most i spent was Raceroom at £90 for everything... a lot but then its the one i play the most.
AI seems to be the low point of all simulators but in Project cars its pretty dire
julian64 said:
Of all of those which has the best AI?
AI seems to be the low point of all simulators but in Project cars its pretty dire
None of them! AI seems to be the low point of all simulators but in Project cars its pretty dire
I'd say rFactor2, but who knows. Best bet is to find some good online racing - as much as it's a pain to sign up to races, it's far more satisfying.
Saying that, I spend 99% of my sim-racing time in single player.
Altrezia said:
None of them!
I'd say rFactor2, but who knows. Best bet is to find some good online racing - as much as it's a pain to sign up to races, it's far more satisfying.
Saying that, I spend 99% of my sim-racing time in single player.
If you ignore the internet petty fanboyisum over the 'sims' then for me I play them all and fine them all pretty fantastic (but then i am from the Amiga 500 generation).I'd say rFactor2, but who knows. Best bet is to find some good online racing - as much as it's a pain to sign up to races, it's far more satisfying.
Saying that, I spend 99% of my sim-racing time in single player.
On the one I use the most it is Raceroom then RFactor 2 then Assetto Corsa.
If i had to take just one for my Desert Island.................. Raceroom. The WTCC on raceroom is outstanding and as all my track and race car driving has been FWD it feels the most accurate and i could happily just play with the WTCC....
julian64 said:
Of all of those which has the best AI?
AI seems to be the low point of all simulators but in Project cars its pretty dire
In AC, you can change the aggressiveness. In a race with around 20 cars, I was at the back. When I came to one of the first corners it was carnage. AI seems to be the low point of all simulators but in Project cars its pretty dire
Interestingly, some cars behave a little less aggressively - I set up a race, went to the pits and just watched an entire race, tracking a couple of cars. I was interesting to watch as they jostle for position. Maybe not intentionally but it seemed ok to me.
Also with AC, you can change the difficulty from 80% to 100%.
Historically I've spent probably 95% of my time in sims just lapping for the enjoyment of driving. Not even pursuing lap times necessarily, just for the enjoyment of skidding about a bit in various cars.
This was especially true in Assetto Corsa, I have accidentally clicked on the 'career' mode twice, but have otherwise exclusively just gone to the 'drive' section and driven.
Since getting a VR headset though I've really taken to including a big mixed field of AI whilst I'm out for a drive, and really enjoy tussling with them. I find you get the most out of AI (in any driving game/sim) if you treat them like proper opponents, that you actively avoid contact with, that you wait for an opportunity to overtake etc. and that you leave space for if they're alongside or clearly about to take a lunge up the inside.
With that in mind I've had plenty of very good side by side battles with the (new) AI in Assetto Corsa, and having a mixed field of cars (mixed eras really helps as your classic can be faster on the straights but modern tyres mean you're fighting hard in the corners), it's amazing the battles you can have with a 250 GTO and an Abarth 595
This was especially true in Assetto Corsa, I have accidentally clicked on the 'career' mode twice, but have otherwise exclusively just gone to the 'drive' section and driven.
Since getting a VR headset though I've really taken to including a big mixed field of AI whilst I'm out for a drive, and really enjoy tussling with them. I find you get the most out of AI (in any driving game/sim) if you treat them like proper opponents, that you actively avoid contact with, that you wait for an opportunity to overtake etc. and that you leave space for if they're alongside or clearly about to take a lunge up the inside.
With that in mind I've had plenty of very good side by side battles with the (new) AI in Assetto Corsa, and having a mixed field of cars (mixed eras really helps as your classic can be faster on the straights but modern tyres mean you're fighting hard in the corners), it's amazing the battles you can have with a 250 GTO and an Abarth 595
Gassing Station | Video Games | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff