Disagreement with advanced driving instructor :biglaugh:

[tight fart]

Arrived at work the other day to be told I had ADI training.
All the vehicles at work have telematics and the drivers are monitored closely and rated at the end of each month, I have been getting a poor result due to “coasting” that had dropped me to 7th overall (out of 325 drivers)
But there were 2 areas that I didn’t agree with the instructor.
The first was wanting me to block change and the other was coasting.
The vehicles we drive are 3.5 tonne 6 speed manual deisel.
Normally pulling away clear road etc you probably change up at 2200 ish rpm
The instructor wanted me to rev to nearly 4K rpm then miss 3rd and go straight to 4th.
I said I wouldn’t drive a fully loaded van like that, Mercedes gave me 6 gears and I’m happy to use them.
Second was the coasting,
Approaching lights, clear road and they change to red, we are 300m away, I would be off the throttle
Slowing gently no need to brake yet, down through the gears and anticipating the change to green.
This instructor wanted me to keep going longer, then brake whilst in gear, only dipping the clutch when the engine was starting to shudder as it was going below tick over revs.

I knew these days come up randomly for the drivers and was quite looking forward to mine, I’ve only ever had 4 hours of instruction from starting to drive (in 1977)

[Rozzers]

I would argue that as this is levied at those driving for work, I would rather their driving style be natural to improve safety rather than thinking about things like this.

This sort of stuff is sold on the back of ‘we will save you £1M a year in fleet fuel bills’ by increasing the mpg by 0.5mpg, but at the same time stressing out the drivers and knocking lumps out the drivetrain.

Is there any penalty for you being dropped in the rankings?

[Chris32345]

Rozzers said:

I would argue that as this is levied at those driving for work, I would rather their driving style be natural to improve safety rather than thinking about things like this.

This sort of stuff is sold on the back of ‘we will save you £1M a year in fleet fuel bills’ by increasing the mpg by 0.5mpg, but at the same time stressing out the drivers and knocking lumps out the drivetrain.

Is there any penalty for you being dropped in the rankings?

How will reviving to 4k and keeping your foot on the pedal till the last minute save fuel?

[tejr]

Chris32345 said:

How will reviving to 4k and keeping your foot on the pedal till the last minute save fuel?

Tbf, diesels work more efficiently under load. Though 4k sounds high.

I noticed I got better mpg in the 530d when driving at speed in bunching traffic, constantly on and off the throttle (no braking) than on a smooth run.

[tight fart]

“Is there any penalty for you being dropped in the rankings?”

I’d have to fall a long way, I’m 7th out of 325, and the ratings are by telematics only.
I’d have thought for economy low revs high gear was the way to go.

[ecsrobin]

tight fart said:

Approaching lights, clear road and they change to red, we are 300m away, I would be off the throttle
Slowing gently no need to brake yet, down through the gears and anticipating the change to green.
This instructor wanted me to keep going longer, then brake whilst in gear, only dipping the clutch when the engine was starting to shudder as it was going below tick over revs.

My 1 minor in my driving test was for doing exactly this.

[ScoobyChris]

tight fart said:

Second was the coasting,
Approaching lights, clear road and they change to red, we are 300m away, I would be off the throttle
Slowing gently no need to brake yet, down through the gears and anticipating the change to green.
This instructor wanted me to keep going longer, then brake whilst in gear, only dipping the clutch when the engine was starting to shudder as it was going below tick over revs.

Coasting is where you travel with the clutch down so are you sure this situation is what the instructor was picking up on?

Chris

[Len Woodman]

Is the ADI an experienced fleet trainer/assessor? Or just an instructor who generally teaches learners?

[Bigends]

ecsrobin said:

tight fart said:

Approaching lights, clear road and they change to red, we are 300m away, I would be off the throttle
Slowing gently no need to brake yet, down through the gears and anticipating the change to green.
This instructor wanted me to keep going longer, then brake whilst in gear, only dipping the clutch when the engine was starting to shudder as it was going below tick over revs.

My 1 minor in my driving test was for doing exactly this.

Exactly what I was Police trained to do, though dip just prior to shudder.

[ecsrobin]

Bigends said:

Exactly what I was Police trained to do, though dip just prior to shudder.

AIM also teach this.

[ElectricSoup]

Bigends said:

ecsrobin said:

tight fart said:

Approaching lights, clear road and they change to red, we are 300m away, I would be off the throttle
Slowing gently no need to brake yet, down through the gears and anticipating the change to green.
This instructor wanted me to keep going longer, then brake whilst in gear, only dipping the clutch when the engine was starting to shudder as it was going below tick over revs.

My 1 minor in my driving test was for doing exactly this.

Exactly what I was Police trained to do, though dip just prior to shudder.

Why? What's the supposed benefit?

[Bigends]

ElectricSoup said:

Bigends said:

ecsrobin said:

tight fart said:

Approaching lights, clear road and they change to red, we are 300m away, I would be off the throttle
Slowing gently no need to brake yet, down through the gears and anticipating the change to green.
This instructor wanted me to keep going longer, then brake whilst in gear, only dipping the clutch when the engine was starting to shudder as it was going below tick over revs.

My 1 minor in my driving test was for doing exactly this.

Exactly what I was Police trained to do, though dip just prior to shudder.

Why? What's the supposed benefit?

Why change down on the approach if you know youre going to have to stop?

If lights do change on the approach, select the correct gear gear and carry on.

[tight fart]

Permanent fleet instructor.

[SlowAndDull]

I was trained this way in the 90s for my IAM test.

My father was previously taught to downshift for deceleration, but it’s now (or at least was) taught “gears to go, brakes to slow”.

[ElectricSoup]

Bigends said:

ElectricSoup said:

Bigends said:

ecsrobin said:

tight fart said:

Approaching lights, clear road and they change to red, we are 300m away, I would be off the throttle
Slowing gently no need to brake yet, down through the gears and anticipating the change to green.
This instructor wanted me to keep going longer, then brake whilst in gear, only dipping the clutch when the engine was starting to shudder as it was going below tick over revs.

My 1 minor in my driving test was for doing exactly this.

Exactly what I was Police trained to do, though dip just prior to shudder.

Why? What's the supposed benefit?

Why change down on the approach if you know youre going to have to stop?

If lights do change on the approach, select the correct gear gear and carry on.

Thanks for answering and I'm really not trying to start an argument, I genuinely don't think that answers the question though, of what's the benefit? I'm open minded to change, so interested to know. Is it less wear and tear on gears/clutch? Is that it? Or is there a safety angle? Why is it "better" or more "advanced" technique?

[Bigends]

ElectricSoup said:

Bigends said:

ElectricSoup said:

Bigends said:

ecsrobin said:

tight fart said:

Approaching lights, clear road and they change to red, we are 300m away, I would be off the throttle
Slowing gently no need to brake yet, down through the gears and anticipating the change to green.
This instructor wanted me to keep going longer, then brake whilst in gear, only dipping the clutch when the engine was starting to shudder as it was going below tick over revs.

My 1 minor in my driving test was for doing exactly this.

Exactly what I was Police trained to do, though dip just prior to shudder.

Why? What's the supposed benefit?

Why change down on the approach if you know youre going to have to stop?

If lights do change on the approach, select the correct gear gear and carry on.

Thanks for answering and I'm really not trying to start an argument, I genuinely don't think that answers the question though, of what's the benefit? I'm open minded to change, so interested to know. Is it less wear and tear on gears/clutch? Is that it? Or is there a safety angle? Why is it "better" or more "advanced" technique?

Not sure, just how we were taught. I seem to recall tbe fact that brakes were cheaper than clutches was mentioned. Also 'dont select a gear unless you need it' therefore why waste effort changing down prior to stopping ?

Edited by Bigends on Wednesday 28th October 14:37

Edited by Bigends on Wednesday 28th October 16:42

[RSTurboPaul]

My understanding of advanced driving is that they are looking to minimise unnecessary actions, in order to allow more focus on the road etc.

If you are going to have to stop anyway at the lights ahead, letting the vehicle slow down and then dipping the clutch and going into neutral is a lot less work than clutch in, change down, roll on, clutch in, change down, roll on, clutch in, change down... etc.

It also means, as noted above, that if traffic moves off, you can select the gear you need to roll on / move off in one action.


The block change thing is, I would argue, affected by vehicle load, engine characteristics, road characteristics, traffic levels/speeds, etc. It shouldn't be an 'always do this' instruction but instead a 'consider using this when appropriate' guidance - as all advanced driving should be. AD is about being flexible to the situation in hand, not rigid and unthinking.

[ScoobyChris]

ElectricSoup said:

Thanks for answering and I'm really not trying to start an argument, I genuinely don't think that answers the question though, of what's the benefit? I'm open minded to change, so interested to know. Is it less wear and tear on gears/clutch? Is that it? Or is there a safety angle? Why is it "better" or more "advanced" technique?

I guess to turn that question around what’s the benefit of dropping down through the gears on approach to the hazard

To answer your question a bit more seriously, it’s about minimising your workload dealing with hazards and so the goal is to scrub off the speed on approach (brakes) and then once the speed is right to deal with the hazard, you pick the gear for that speed and drive through and out. If you want to read up about it in more detail check out Roadcraft or The Police System Of Car Control.

Chris

[bristolracer]

Show them how well the instruction is going by getting your ranking down to no 320

[Pica-Pica]

Changing down by a block change is to avoid two (or more) clutch movements, which means an additional unnecessary action by the driver, plus the (albeit negligible) wear and tear. Changing up by a block change is the same; additionally you are getting up to speed quicker and avoiding obstructing surrounding traffic, if, say, joint a fast A road.
The ‘coasting’ bit would be very situation specific. I assume they mean ‘off the throttle’ rather than coasting in neutral, or with clutch down. I see no issue with that. If I am approaching a bunch of cars at lights I would ease off and aim to stay in the current gear (subject to surrounding and following traffic and circumstances). Ask them to explain.