Cameras are now vastly too expensive
Discussion
Like most things in life........you get what you pay for!
The older i've got (more disposable income), the more expensive my gear has cost and the heavier it has become - it's called suffering from GAS (Gear Aquisition Syndrome).
I only shoot Wildlife and my gear is either 'back-packed' or 'Trollyed' to locations (waiting for replacement knees next month!). Due to the weight of the camera and lens (500f4 prime), I only shoot off of a tripod nowadays and have adpted the way I shoot to compensate for my senior years.
Personally, I feel that the cost of top-end cameras is worth every penny and most are a bargain, especially if you compare the cost nowadays to the days of 'film & developing' that we used to have to pay for............I can easily shoot a hundred plus images a day (sometimes 1000+), so I reckon £3k+ for a camera body is a 'snip'.
Would I change to mirrorless? - Not yet, as having tested a few, they need to improve a bit in certain areas for my personal needs.
The older i've got (more disposable income), the more expensive my gear has cost and the heavier it has become - it's called suffering from GAS (Gear Aquisition Syndrome).
I only shoot Wildlife and my gear is either 'back-packed' or 'Trollyed' to locations (waiting for replacement knees next month!). Due to the weight of the camera and lens (500f4 prime), I only shoot off of a tripod nowadays and have adpted the way I shoot to compensate for my senior years.
Personally, I feel that the cost of top-end cameras is worth every penny and most are a bargain, especially if you compare the cost nowadays to the days of 'film & developing' that we used to have to pay for............I can easily shoot a hundred plus images a day (sometimes 1000+), so I reckon £3k+ for a camera body is a 'snip'.
Would I change to mirrorless? - Not yet, as having tested a few, they need to improve a bit in certain areas for my personal needs.
Vintage Racer said:
Personally, I feel that the cost of top-end cameras is worth every penny and most are a bargain, especially if you compare the cost nowadays to the days of 'film & developing' that we used to have to pay for............I can easily shoot a hundred plus images a day (sometimes 1000+), so I reckon £3k+ for a camera body is a 'snip'.
Would I change to mirrorless? - Not yet, as having tested a few, they need to improve a bit in certain areas for my personal needs.
Agree on the overall cost - especially compared to film!Would I change to mirrorless? - Not yet, as having tested a few, they need to improve a bit in certain areas for my personal needs.
Regarding mirrorless, what areas specifically need improvement? I ask as I'm considering a mirrorless body to add to/take over from my 5Dmk3, and like to shoot a bit of wildlife, action, and low light stuff, so would be interested in what they don't do well enough yet, not having had a chance to try any so far.
Also have you tested the R5 yet (assuming you're using Canon)?
C n C said:
Vintage Racer said:
... especially if you compare the cost nowadays to the days of 'film & developing' that we used to have to pay for............I can easily shoot a hundred plus images a day (sometimes 1000+),
Agree on the overall cost - especially compared to film!David_M said:
C n C said:
Vintage Racer said:
... especially if you compare the cost nowadays to the days of 'film & developing' that we used to have to pay for............I can easily shoot a hundred plus images a day (sometimes 1000+),
Agree on the overall cost - especially compared to film!C n C said:
Agree on the overall cost - especially compared to film!
Regarding mirrorless, what areas specifically need improvement? I ask as I'm considering a mirrorless body to add to/take over from my 5Dmk3, and like to shoot a bit of wildlife, action, and low light stuff, so would be interested in what they don't do well enough yet, not having had a chance to try any so far.
Also have you tested the R5 yet (assuming you're using Canon)?
Why are you considering mirrorless?Regarding mirrorless, what areas specifically need improvement? I ask as I'm considering a mirrorless body to add to/take over from my 5Dmk3, and like to shoot a bit of wildlife, action, and low light stuff, so would be interested in what they don't do well enough yet, not having had a chance to try any so far.
Also have you tested the R5 yet (assuming you're using Canon)?
For me it was light weight and being compact. In both respects my Pan G7 was spot on. I also wanted decent video and again, it was good, if not better.
I only have one additional lens, a 100-300, or 200 - 600 for full frame. That too is smaller and lighter.
If you don't want smaller/lighter then I think it's pointless changing. Unless your're after top quality video, and then the upper range of Panasonic cameras is what to go for.
singlecoil said:
Light meters, especially in a studio setting, are pretty much irrelevant now. In the time it took me to get my meter out and switched on I could have nailed my exposure by taking a couple of test shots.
Yeah can't remember last time used a light meter in the studio, have one in my bag like, but not used it in a long time.
DailyHack said:
Stick with it and upgrade your glass maybe...or maybe you have a good collection of fast wide aperture primes (apologies if you have) but these can completely freshen up your perspective on a DSLR body with a extremely fast lens!
Zooms are more useful for my needs. I don't have anything too incredible, but they work well for my needs.- 17-40 F4 L
- 24-105 F4 L
- 50 and 85 1.8
I normally only use the 24-105 now whilst hiking.
I rarely get the camera out though as it's big and inconvenient.
Sony seem to have far smaller lenses than Canon. The Canon RF lenses are all big and heavy with nothing in the roadmap that is small. I'm sure that will change, but it could be many years away.
gangzoom said:
Main improvements have been near real time image stacking to essentially eliminate the need for tripods at night, allow for back lit subjects to exposed without a fill in flash, and fake bokeh to allow for subject separation from the background despite having high f stop numbers on tiny lens/sensors.
These are good examples.Software has moved on hugely and camera manufacturers are being left behind. The market is so small I would suspect they have little money for as much R&D as they likely should be doing.
From stats I've seen the camera market is 10% of what it was 10 years ago.
Derek Smith said:
Why are you considering mirrorless?
For me it was light weight and being compact. In both respects my Pan G7 was spot on. I also wanted decent video and again, it was good, if not better.
I only have one additional lens, a 100-300, or 200 - 600 for full frame. That too is smaller and lighter.
If you don't want smaller/lighter then I think it's pointless changing. Unless your're after top quality video, and then the upper range of Panasonic cameras is what to go for.
Smaller/lighter isn't a consideration really, especially as I want to continue using the full-frame format and have several top quality lenses that I'm in no rush to change, so would be using them with a Canon RF/EF converter:For me it was light weight and being compact. In both respects my Pan G7 was spot on. I also wanted decent video and again, it was good, if not better.
I only have one additional lens, a 100-300, or 200 - 600 for full frame. That too is smaller and lighter.
If you don't want smaller/lighter then I think it's pointless changing. Unless your're after top quality video, and then the upper range of Panasonic cameras is what to go for.
Sigma 120-300 f2.8 + 1.4x converter
Canon 70-200 f2.8 IS L
Canon 100mm Macro f2.8 IS L
Canon 24-105 f4 IS L
Samyang 14mm f2.8
It's also the reason I'll be staying with Canon and not looking to change to Nikon, Fuji, Panasonic etc.. - particularly also having other Canon kit - 2 x pro flashguns, auto extension tubes etc..
Reasons for considering mirrorless (EOS R5)
Firstly I would like better video than the 5Dmk3 produces - especially accurate auto-focus whilst shooting, and changing focus points smoothly.
Secondly, I'm looking for further improved high ISO performance - especially for use in low light.
Thirdly, intelligent AF. I'm certainly interested in the EOS R5 with both human and animal recognition and tracking. As I understand it, the only Canon DSLR with any intelligent AF is the 1DXmk3, which is a little out of my budget at £7k.
Fourth - again linked to low light stuff, is the in-body image stabilisation, which works for any lens (obviously), but also apparently further enhances image stabilisation when used in conjunction with a lens with in-built IS.
The main reason for looking at mirrorless, though, is the electronic viewfinder. I like shooting in low light, and find that sometimes with an optical viewfinder, it can be difficult seeing what you're taking photos of exactly. As I understand it, in these conditions, the EVF enables a much clearer view.
Finally, I also understand that Canon are not looking to futher develop their 5D range of full frame DSLRs, so it does look like mirrorless will be the way ahead.
Matt.. said:
...Sony seem to have far smaller lenses than Canon. The Canon RF lenses are all big and heavy with nothing in the roadmap that is small. I'm sure that will change, but it could be many years away.
I think you'll find that like for like (i.e. full frame, same maximum aperture) Sony lenses aren't much different from Canon in size and weightMatt.. said:
These are good examples.
Software has moved on hugely and camera manufacturers are being left behind. The market is so small I would suspect they have little money for as much R&D as they likely should be doing.
From stats I've seen the camera market is 10% of what it was 10 years ago.
Canon and Nikon etc will have no issues with this as they still sell products across the whole range.Software has moved on hugely and camera manufacturers are being left behind. The market is so small I would suspect they have little money for as much R&D as they likely should be doing.
From stats I've seen the camera market is 10% of what it was 10 years ago.
And software is cheap. Imamate stacking for instance isn’t mystical... nor was video in the 5D.2 days... it’s just laziness or marketing based nerfing.
Mr Whippy said:
Canon and Nikon etc will have no issues with this as they still sell products across the whole range.
And software is cheap. Imamate stacking for instance isn’t mystical... nor was video in the 5D.2 days... it’s just laziness or marketing based nerfing.
Nikon are small, they’re unlikely to be investing hugely into R&D to make any significant leaps. And software is cheap. Imamate stacking for instance isn’t mystical... nor was video in the 5D.2 days... it’s just laziness or marketing based nerfing.
It is interesting how little software innovation comes from these camera companies. If it’s so cheap and easy then where are the results?
Matt.. said:
It is interesting how little software innovation comes from these camera companies. If it’s so cheap and easy then where are the results?
Maybe because their expertise is making cameras not writing software?Photography should be about optics and skill, not software (which is what you use to make up for lack of the first two).
singlecoil said:
I think you'll find that like for like (i.e. full frame, same maximum aperture) Sony lenses aren't much different from Canon in size and weight
Unfortunately I don’t believe this is really true. Perhaps if you include EF lenses for Canon, but as soon as you do that you need an adapter, and that adds bulk and weight. The Canon RF range is very small. It’s growing, but very slowly. It will take many years to establish.
Simpo Two said:
Maybe because their expertise is making cameras not writing software?
Photography should be about optics and skill, not software (which is what you use to make up for lack of the first two).
The world moves on though. Software is a key part of technology. Like it or not it is an integral part of everything now, and bringing more software innovation to high end cameras would revolutionise the whole sector. Photography should be about optics and skill, not software (which is what you use to make up for lack of the first two).
I also think you’re looking at it incorrectly if all you believe can be done with software is to help with deficiencies in optics and skill.
Matt.. said:
The world moves on though. Software is a key part of technology. Like it or not it is an integral part of everything now, and bringing more software innovation to high end cameras would revolutionise the whole sector.
I also think you’re looking at it incorrectly if all you believe can be done with software is to help with deficiencies in optics and skill.
I am a lazy photographer and don't mind software helping out but what are you expecting over and above what it does already? I also think you’re looking at it incorrectly if all you believe can be done with software is to help with deficiencies in optics and skill.
Thinking of my Samsung S21 phone software, my R5 is way ahead of it in terms of what it offers in terms of software. I needed a manual just to understand all the settings, customisations etc and there is still a lot to learn. My phone is very basic...Night, Food, Portrait etc. Like a child's toy in comparison.
Canon's Menu system and software is very good in my own humble opinion but always happy for even better, of course.
Edit to add: are you wanting a fully fleshed out photo editor in-camera? An auto-editor of some sort maybe?
I take photos on my R5, they upload to my phone, I do a quick edit using an app and post to my family or friends. Seems all the software I need is working fine. I'm not sure I'd like to edit directly on my camera and post from my camera, I'm happy to have the images transferred to another device.
Edited by TheAlgarveCyclist on Tuesday 1st June 18:28
Matt.. said:
Simpo Two said:
Maybe because their expertise is making cameras not writing software?
Photography should be about optics and skill, not software (which is what you use to make up for lack of the first two).
The world moves on though. Software is a key part of technology. Like it or not it is an integral part of everything now, and bringing more software innovation to high end cameras would revolutionise the whole sector. Photography should be about optics and skill, not software (which is what you use to make up for lack of the first two).
I also think you’re looking at it incorrectly if all you believe can be done with software is to help with deficiencies in optics and skill.
Are people buying mid to high end interchangeable lens cameras really looking for the camera to do things for them automatically, as per a phone? I've used Olympus E models that can build long exposures in camera, it's very cool tech but nothing that can't be done yourself. My guess is most would want to shoot the frames and have full control over that process in Photoshop etc after.
We've proved that actually, camera prices haven't increased, like for like, in the past 10-15 years. We've also had plenty of example of where actually yes, the technology in those cameras has moved on substantially (high ISO, dynamic range, tracking AF etc).
We've proved that actually, camera prices haven't increased, like for like, in the past 10-15 years. We've also had plenty of example of where actually yes, the technology in those cameras has moved on substantially (high ISO, dynamic range, tracking AF etc).
Matt.. said:
Zooms are more useful for my needs. I don't have anything too incredible, but they work well for my needs.
- 17-40 F4 L
- 24-105 F4 L
- 50 and 85 1.8
I normally only use the 24-105 now whilst hiking.
I rarely get the camera out though as it's big and inconvenient.
Sony seem to have far smaller lenses than Canon. The Canon RF lenses are all big and heavy with nothing in the roadmap that is small. I'm sure that will change, but it could be many years away.
- 17-40 F4 L
- 24-105 F4 L
- 50 and 85 1.8
I normally only use the 24-105 now whilst hiking.
I rarely get the camera out though as it's big and inconvenient.
Sony seem to have far smaller lenses than Canon. The Canon RF lenses are all big and heavy with nothing in the roadmap that is small. I'm sure that will change, but it could be many years away.
singlecoil said:
I think you'll find that like for like (i.e. full frame, same maximum aperture) Sony lenses aren't much different from Canon in size and weight
Based on some of the lenses you use (24-105 F4 L, 50mm F1.8), and a few other typical popular lenses, all full-frame versions, I'd agree very much with singlecoil that Canon RF, Canon EF, and Sony are all fairly comparable in size and weight. I'm sure Nikon would be as well. It basically all comes down to physics.
Lenses by conradsphotos, on FlickrI'd agree that the Canon RF range isn't as extensive as their EF range (yet), nor Sony's range, but it was only launched relatively recently, and it is expanding very rapidly, added to the fact that for a weight penalty of only 130g, you can always use Canon EF lenses with the adapter.
Also, given that you normally use a 24-105 F4 L, what lenses are actually missing from the Canon RF range?
Are you sure that you really think that Sony's lenses are "much smaller and lighter" than Canon's (they are not) or is there some other reason that you are unhappy with Canon's mirrorless (RF) offerings?
I think that if you really are not happy with the size of full frame equipment, then maybe it would be an idea to look at a smaller format, which will give you much smaller and more lightweight kit.
tangerine_sedge said:
Matt.. said:
I also think you’re looking at it incorrectly if all you believe can be done with software is to help with deficiencies in optics and skill.
Software is required for phone cameras just to make the images usable on Instagram and the like. The phone manufacturers haven't found some magical way of cramming a quality lens into a small flat phone. You cannot cahnge the laws of physics Captain!But many years ago I went to a laser exhibition, and saw a hologram of a magnifying glass, and I'm pretty sure it actually magnified... in which case you just need lasers to project a virtual 1,000mm f1.0 lens and off you go
Gassing Station | Photography & Video | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff