S2/S3: Looking to buy - thoughts & opinions welcome

S2/S3: Looking to buy - thoughts & opinions welcome

Author
Discussion

Jamesyg81

Original Poster:

11 posts

97 months

Wednesday 13th September 2017
quotequote all
Kitchski said:
I'm planning to create an in-depth 'buyers guide' for the S, which I'll post to the Southways website. I see these cars all the time, drive everything from brilliant examples to absolute shonkers, and am also an owner. My leg's aching and I'm putting off some paperwork for the accounts so I'll knock this watered-down version together quickly while I neck my cup of tea!

Three big potential expenses on an S (or most TVRs, in fairness)

1. Chassis - the most expensive thing to sort (if you get it done properly). It's not just outriggers, it's everything (in fact on an S chassis, the rear beam is more important than the outriggers, and much trickier to sort out.) Beware cars that have 'had the outriggers changed', as while there is every possibility the job has been completed to a good standard, and the rest of the chassis genuinely is sound, it's more likely that it hasn't been. I've never had an S come in that has had the outriggers done in the past and thought "Oh, that's a decent job!" Expect to spend £5-10k (depending on how crazy you want to go), though if you can spanner yourself, you can drastically reduce this.

2. Bodywork - paintwork on a TVR is expensive, if you want a good job. The bodyshop will probably have to remove one or two previous attempts on most cars, too. Doors drop off too, as the retaining bobbins in the GRP break out - complete pain to put it right if you want the repair to look respectable. Expect to pay around £4-6k.

3. Interior - if you do all the labour yourself, you could fully retrim a TVR S for about £2-2.5k (incl. roof). If you want someone to do it for you, double it (though the odds are not every single component would need replacing).


As far as the models go:

S1 - Usually has the 2.8 engine fitted (though some very late cars might have moved over to the 2.9). Don't discount a good S1 for a st S2. A good car is a good car.

Pros: Relatively simple injection system. Probably the best value S in terms of purchase price alone. Makes a unique sound amongst the S range (raspy, old school, lots of pops and bangs). In my experience doing chassis', white S1 chassis have tended to fare better than the darker red later S3/V8S spec chassis', which suggests the original coating was better. Obviously all of them will pretty much need the chassis doing by now if they haven't had it already, but prolonging the condition of the steel underneath helps.

Cons: The slowest of the bunch (worth about 15-25bhp less than the 2.9 - ignore TVR's BS power claims - though in fairness no S model is about speed, unless it's modified). Build quality on the earliest cars was pretty bad, along with the quality of materials, and build improved as the S aged. Small doors (like the S2) which can make it trickier for people to get into and out. Wind-up windows (if you class that as a con).

S2 - As per S1, but with electric windows (usually) and the 2.9 engine. Very slightly revised rear suspension settings, though you'd be hard pressed to notice the difference.

Pros: Bit more grunt than a 2.8. Sounds great again - nothing like the 2.8, more like an off-beat V8. Most common S out there, so usually easier to find one.

Cons: Still has the small doors. EFI system can be a pig if it throws its toys out the pram.

S3 - As per S2, but with newer dashboard (which looks older in style, weirdly) and larger doors, plus some other tit bits like optional driving lamps etc.

Pros: Larger doors - make a big difference to the ease of access. Build quality noticeable better than S1/S2, along with quality of leather/carpet etc. Revised rear trailing arms with adjustable toe angle. A little bit less 'kit car' in feel than the S1/S2.

Cons: Tend to cost a bit more than the other V6 models. Chassis seems to be the most easily affected for rot (in my experience, which follows the same pattern in Chimaera/Griffith models, where the later ones tend to fare worse for corrosion, but are better built).

(I won't bother doing the S4 - you're unlikely to find one!)

V8S - Totally different animal to the V6 cars. A very different drive to the V6, both in terms of feel and character.

Pros: Much quicker than a V6 in a straight line (I've seen people say there's not much in it - only true if the V8 driver isn't trying), though around the bends the V8 feels more of a handful. Revised suspension with wider track. Disc brakes all round. Limited slip diff. Exhaust doesn't fit as badly as the V6 cars (where it's a complete afterthought). They sound great (best sounding RV8 TVR in my opinion). You get the better build of the S3-spec car.

Cons: More expensive to buy and marginally more expensive to run. Camshafts are made of chocolate. Gearchange can be a bit average (though it's possible to improve it).


Overall, they're great fun. None of them are what I'd class as 'fast', but to worry about that is missing the point. They're all about fun, and any well-sorted S will put a sizable grin on your face in the right conditions. They're ongoing projects, and they're never finished. NOBODY'S car has nothing left to do on it, including the ones for sale! The roof is a PITA to erect and take down, but with the roof down it's a great experience.

My advice would be to buy the most sorted car you can. If you can find one that's had the chassis, body and interior done, it'll cost more but possibly save you money in the future, or you can buy cheap and get one or more of the three attended to. You rarely break even with these cars though, so you do it for the love, not the bank balance!

I've not got time for more, but if you've got any Q's I'm happy to help smile
Fantastic response Kitchski, exactly what I was looking to understand. The real driver for me with these cars is just that - the grin factor. I do want to get the experience of speed, and I do want to know that the car requires driving to get the most from it. If I reference back to my 911 Turbo - which I would reference as my friendly pet Lion. Be nice to it, keep within it's limits and ease it into corners and it is tame, soft and to an extent, a pussy cat. But if you piss it off, attack the throttle, hit the corners quick, and come out quicker, then it lets you know. You only get this on the track however, you'd have to be a lunatic (fool) to get out of shape in it on the roads.

Am hoping an S will be a little more difficult to drive at pace - combined with everything else about it, really hits the mark.

I am on the fence between the V6 & V8 though! I'll adjust my budget for a V8 if that car will give me the rewards - my only concern was that the V8 might not offer that 'racier' feel you mention... which I love!

Exciting time to be looking though! If a V8 pops up, I'll certainly take a look!

Kitchski

6,514 posts

230 months

Wednesday 13th September 2017
quotequote all
No worries.

The V6 is a pussy cat. You have to be ham-fisted to cock it up in a V6. There's more grip than power! That said, I really enjoy mine around the twisties. You can have confidence in it because a Cologne V6 has the throttle response of a dead hamster, so you can be really cack footed in corners. It's difficult to upset it, and as others have said already, in the twisties they're actually a decent tool for the job. At the TVRCC Millbrook day a couple of years back, I had no issue sticking to the back of any of the other cars, including Tuscans, Cerberas et al. (and mine's an S1!) Mind you, they were probably all being driven by older men who'd spent more time polishing them than driving them!

The V8 is a bit more brutish. Ultimately it's not a fast car, and modern hot hatches would dispatch one with ease. But, the power delivery in the V8 is what makes it. It's just in one big lump, and the chassis can just about cope. It's a great setup - not so fast you risk death (like a 911 Turbo!) but brutish and basic enough to still give you the same taste of adrenalin.

If I had the budget, I'd probably have the V8S. The only stipulation is that the budget for an OK V8S would get a very nice V6, and I know how good the V6 can be.

GreenV8S

30,150 posts

283 months

Wednesday 13th September 2017
quotequote all
Kitchski said:
the chassis can just about cope
Many people have made similar comments over the years and they always baffle me. What do you mean by the chassis 'coping' - more to the point, what would happen if it didn't 'cope'?

Deeman

1,609 posts

181 months

Wednesday 13th September 2017
quotequote all
Kitchski said:
Camshafts are made of chocolate.
I wish I could say otherwise - but so true. I thought the Chocolate Teapot was a myth as well

phillpot

17,105 posts

182 months

Wednesday 13th September 2017
quotequote all
GreenV8S said:
What do you mean by the chassis 'coping' - more to the point, what would happen if it didn't 'cope'?
Chassis not "coping" with power.......................... smile



Dave_M

5,486 posts

223 months

Wednesday 13th September 2017
quotequote all
Scoobimax said:
I've owned both V6 and now a V8.

They drive differently for sure as Pete (Deeman) described earlier, and like Pete, if I had space and money I would have loved to have kept my S3 alongside my V8.

I found the V6 "racier" because you're working the engine and gearbox more so feel more engaged which it can take and yes you can easily keep up with V8's in the twisty bits which is great fun. There is less torque/power which comes to play when you hit the straight bits.

However, having just completed the latest EuroTour of Scotland, I have really "connected" with my V8S this time - chucking it round the corners and exploiting that extra torque; and felt it was as racy and felt much quicker than I did in the S3 probably due to the long sweeping bends we encountered.

The V8S also feels smoother than my old S3 and I put that down to the slightly wider track and chassis strengthening, which us why I would describe it as a GT / tourer.

Either way you will have great engaging fun in either and budget/availability will be your drivers (pardon the pun).

And as also stated above chassis, chassis, chassis are your key words when buying.

The home spannering is lost on me so can't contribute to the technical side of things.

Also go for an S3 or later if you're tall due to the longer doors.

Hope that helps a little.

Good luck and see you on next year's EuroTour to the Monaco Classic.

Max
So far, I've had 1600M, 2 x 3000M, S2, V8S, 350i, Cerb 420 and Cerb 450, so a fair range. Even the 2 3000Ms were completely different to each other.

When I came back to TVR I bought a S2 and thoroughly enjoyed it (remember London Thunder with Longers etc!). Great fun, chuckable and felt so much faster than it was!

So, I bought a V8S (which I am thinking of selling after more than a decade) to go with it. Much, much better build quality, great on the tour of Scotland, smoother, more robust, nicer in all ways, except the S2 'felt' quicker. So, I bought the cerb to go with them then a year later sold the S2 - which a couple of years later would have bought back.

With any TVR it is so much about choice and taste. The S series is vastly under rated and all models have so much merit.

Whatever you chose, simply enjoy it, have fun and keep safe smile

AndrewS2

334 posts

163 months

Wednesday 13th September 2017
quotequote all
Great thread, and some fantastic replies from people much more experienced than me! I've never driven a V8S so can't comment on that. I have been known to chase TVRs around in my 1974 MG Midget (picture above) which as you say is so much fun to drive flat out I am still smiling today thinking about the 1400 miles around Scotland last week! The S series is a step up in power but has that same checkable driving experience it sounds like you're looking for.

I have an S2 registered as a TVR 280S.... This is the S1.5 people have spoken of - mine is the 2.9 engine but has 'do it yourself' windows.

From a personal perspective I'm used to the MG so being *ehem* younger and also being a short arse means the short doors don't bother me at all - but I know the taller chaps find the long doors of an S3 much better.

Whatever you go with if you find a car which has a sorted chassis and all the things Richard has talked about above, whether it's a V8 or V6 you'll love it. I did what you shouldn't do and bought the first one I saw - this has cost me quite a bit of money rebuilding but should very soon give me my 'perfect' S series smile

Good luck and hope to see you on an even!

Andrew

Jamesyg81

Original Poster:

11 posts

97 months

Thursday 14th September 2017
quotequote all
Thanks all for your thoughts, great community here!

Often my challenge when purchasing. . Bought my 911 as the 3rd one I looked at... have spent a LOT of money getting it mechanically sound, but then, I'm fastidious. She's one of the most sorted 996 turbos out there, but does get driven.

My 1500 Midget I've had for 12 years, purchased when I was 23, and restored.. I only planned on tidying up the enine bay! But what a hoot to drive - get them breathing right and they are quite responsive, chuck able little things!

Really excited about an S purchase... feel like a kid waiting for Christmas!

I'll dig out some photos!

greymrj

3,316 posts

203 months

Thursday 14th September 2017
quotequote all
Deeman said:
I agree with you mike - looks better finsihed all round more curvy, lines from wings flow into bonnet better. Whilst the lump is irrelevant, its adds a bitnof menace. Good choice - junk the V6 bonnet and replace it with a V8 one - others have!
How could I not agree! The V8 bonnet is more elegantly curved, both at the top and the front, and lacks the incongruous square openings in an otherwise curvy V6 car. tongue out (It is also a better engineering 'thermodynamic' style as it draws the hot air out rather than putting air pressure into the back of the engine bay nerd, TVR were improving their understanding of 'design' and had started on a new fag packet. It didn't have the crease in the paper that gave rise to the asymmetric kit car scoop vent in the roof of the V6 bonnet winkgetmecoat.

(Photo below of the 'sheep in wolfs clothing' S1)







Edited by greymrj on Thursday 14th September 09:37

v8s4me

7,234 posts

218 months

Thursday 14th September 2017
quotequote all
Excellent thread! The comments about the V6 vs V8 comparison are spot on. Buy the best car that you can afford regardless of the model. You won't regret it.

If you are thinking about spending in the region of £9k though I'd suggest waiting for one to come up privately. For that sort of money you should expect to get a car which has had a full body off, nut & bolt restoration. So long as the work is fully documented and has been carried out by known, reputable specialists then you should get your self a real gem.

phillpot said:
.....If you're planning on doing many miles in it (Longers Monaco trip next year?) a V6 should return around 27/28 mpg, mine did over 1500 miles up to and around Scotland last week, suspect a V8 would have gobbled up a bit more?
Up to a third more thumbup The golden rule with either car is; poor fuel consumption = lots of fun - good fuel consumption = no fun laugh

Deeman

1,609 posts

181 months

Thursday 14th September 2017
quotequote all
[quote=greymrj][quote=Deeman]

The V8 doesn't have the crease in the paper that gave rise to the asymmetric kit car scoop vent in the roof of the V6 bonnet winkgetmecoat.

(Photo below of the 'sheep in wolfs clothing' S1)

quote]

Which is also off-centre.......

greymrj

3,316 posts

203 months

Thursday 14th September 2017
quotequote all
Deeman]reymrj said:
Deeman said:
The V8 doesn't have the crease in the paper that gave rise to the asymmetric kit car scoop vent in the roof of the V6 bonnet winkgetmecoat.

(Photo below of the 'sheep in wolfs clothing' S1)

quote]

Which is also off-centre.......
Indeed it is, but what has always puzzled me is why TVR put the scoop on the V6 facing forwards (which does look a bit kit car to me) and put the sharp crease on one side of the scoop but not on the other.

Kitchski

6,514 posts

230 months

Thursday 14th September 2017
quotequote all
GreenV8S said:
Kitchski said:
the chassis can just about cope
Many people have made similar comments over the years and they always baffle me. What do you mean by the chassis 'coping' - more to the point, what would happen if it didn't 'cope'?
Drive a Chimaera 400 and you'll feel the difference. The V8S is much more fun, but it's also more of a handful.

GreenV8S

30,150 posts

283 months

Thursday 14th September 2017
quotequote all
Kitchski said:
Drive a Chimaera 400 and you'll feel the difference. The V8S is much more fun, but it's also more of a handful.
So you're talking about handling and controllability?

I don't agree that the V8S is at all marginal in that respect and I also don't agree that the Chimaera handling is better. I've never owned a Chimaera so of course I'm biassed towards the V8S that I'm most familiar with, but I have driven a few. I find it much easier to tell what the V8S is doing. I don't think I'm alone in that view - there seems to be a consensus among drivers I know who have owned both, that the V8S is easier and more rewarding to drive fast even though it may be slower in a straight line. That's why I refer to it as being a more 'chuckable' car. That view is supported by performance on the track, where a V8S will routinely keep up with a more powerful Chimaera.

Naturally this is massively dependent on the suspension and geometry set up and how that suits a given driver and track, so no doubt there are examples of both model that a given driver would hate or love, but IMO the V8S handles quite nicely in standard trim and has the potentially to handle a lot more power without being overpowered. My V8S has roughly double the torque it left the factory with but doesn't feel overpowered and leaves me looking for more.

Kitchski

6,514 posts

230 months

Thursday 14th September 2017
quotequote all
GreenV8S said:
So you're talking about handling and controllability?

I don't agree that the V8S is at all marginal in that respect and I also don't agree that the Chimaera handling is better. I've never owned a Chimaera so of course I'm biassed towards the V8S that I'm most familiar with, but I have driven a few. I find it much easier to tell what the V8S is doing. I don't think I'm alone in that view - there seems to be a consensus among drivers I know who have owned both, that the V8S is easier and more rewarding to drive fast even though it may be slower in a straight line. That's why I refer to it as being a more 'chuckable' car. That view is supported by performance on the track, where a V8S will routinely keep up with a more powerful Chimaera.

Naturally this is massively dependent on the suspension and geometry set up and how that suits a given driver and track, so no doubt there are examples of both model that a given driver would hate or love, but IMO the V8S handles quite nicely in standard trim and has the potentially to handle a lot more power without being overpowered. My V8S has roughly double the torque it left the factory with but doesn't feel overpowered and leaves me looking for more.
Well, having a chassis that "can just about cope" falls under the remit of handling & controllability, does it not?

For a start, handling is not quantifiable. It's a purely subjective opinion of the of the individual, so if your opinion conflicts with what a number of people over the years have said, that's fine. It's allowed to.

My opinion is that the V8S just about manages the grunt of the RV8 engine. It's far more lively than a Chimaera, despite having the same power output/delivery. The rear suspension is fairly basic and you can feel the car fighting when pressing on, which is something the Chimaera (as an example controls much better, probably because the chassis is designed for more power). In the case of the V8S, I don't count this against it. In fact, it makes it a more exciting and rewarding steer because of it.

It's also worth pointing out the reason Peter Wheeler decided to drop the modified S chassis as the basis for the new Griffith was because he felt it was on the limit with the 4.0 engine, and that it would limit future tuning by TVR, or by owners of the cars themselves. Instead, they productionised a version of the Tuscan racer chassis for the new Griffith, and used the earmarked modified S chassis for the V8S as a model in its own right.

The most meaty V8S I've driven was a customer's car we currently have in, so I haven't driven it in anger! But, it has a 4.3 TVR Power engine, with 280bhp (actual power figures, not TVR power figures). It's brilliantly bonkers, but I don't think you'd be able to go point to point any faster than a standard V8S in it, you'd just have an even bigger smile on your face doing so.

GreenV8S

30,150 posts

283 months

Tuesday 19th September 2017
quotequote all
Kitchski said:
Well, having a chassis that "can just about cope" falls under the remit of handling & controllability, does it not?

For a start, handling is not quantifiable. It's a purely subjective opinion of the of the individual, so if your opinion conflicts with what a number of people over the years have said, that's fine. It's allowed to.

My opinion is that the V8S just about manages the grunt of the RV8 engine. It's far more lively than a Chimaera, despite having the same power output/delivery. The rear suspension is fairly basic and you can feel the car fighting when pressing on, which is something the Chimaera (as an example controls much better, probably because the chassis is designed for more power). In the case of the V8S, I don't count this against it. In fact, it makes it a more exciting and rewarding steer because of it.

It's also worth pointing out the reason Peter Wheeler decided to drop the modified S chassis as the basis for the new Griffith was because he felt it was on the limit with the 4.0 engine, and that it would limit future tuning by TVR, or by owners of the cars themselves. Instead, they productionised a version of the Tuscan racer chassis for the new Griffith, and used the earmarked modified S chassis for the V8S as a model in its own right.

The most meaty V8S I've driven was a customer's car we currently have in, so I haven't driven it in anger! But, it has a 4.3 TVR Power engine, with 280bhp (actual power figures, not TVR power figures). It's brilliantly bonkers, but I don't think you'd be able to go point to point any faster than a standard V8S in it, you'd just have an even bigger smile on your face doing so.
Well it does to me, but I've met people who think it means the space frame chassis is not strong or stiff enough to survive the power. And among people who give it the same meaning that you and I do, there are people who earnestly told me not to do an induction upgrade on the original engine because it would overpower the chassis.

Handling definitely is subjective and I absolutely agree that twin wishbone all round is a better setup that will be easier to make handle well, but the semi-trailing setup is not at all bad and needn't be a limiting factor with the sort of power levels you're talking about. I think the main limitation is the tendency to rear wheel tramp, and that does become more of a problem as the power levels go up. The semi-trailing setup also IMO puts the rear roll center too low which I think is responsible for some of the leery oversteer in very fast very long bends. But I don't get in situations like that very often.

On the other hand the semi-trailing geometry gives a very useful anti-lift at the rear and I think is one of the reasons that the S handles aggressive corner entry so well. If you watch a standard Chimaera 400 and a V8S hit the brakes at speed, you'll see the Chimaera back end lifts by far more than the S and it takes far longer to settle down afterwards.

The 430 you describe sounds like great fun and I thoroughly approve. It shouldn't be as challenging to drive as you describe, though. The 4.6 in mine had similar power and I suspect more torque normally aspirated. It took me a while to get the handling balanced out but it was IMO quite docile to drive as long as you didn't do anything stupid. I don't think that is just due to my familiarity with the car - I loaned it to a fellow TVR sprinter who had suffered a breakdown and he was within a second of my time out of the box. However, you can't just take a suspension setup that's designed to 200 BHP and expect it to play nice with the thick end of 300 BHP. And if you're still running the standard brakes and the brake balance is as suicidal as mine was then you absolutely need to sort that out. And you're going to need a proper LSD. But once set up properly, a 300 BHP V8S should be no harder to drive than a 200 BHP one, and it should be a heck of a lot faster. Mine was power limited a lot of the time which is why it ended up being supercharged. And even with 10 PSI it was still looking for more power a lot of the time. It needed a different driving technique to go fast, but there's still more grip than power a lot of the time. It's not especially difficult to drive and definitely faster point to point than when normally aspirated and that was massive faster than the tuned 4.0 it replaced.


v8s4me

7,234 posts

218 months

Wednesday 20th September 2017
quotequote all
OP - have you seen this?

https://www.facebook.com/groups/tvrbuysellswap/per...

It's been for sale for some time now so if you're looking for a winter project it might fit the bill for you.

jimed

1,500 posts

205 months

Thursday 21st September 2017
quotequote all
I had an S3C for many years and loved it. It was chuckable and reliable. All the servicing was done with the help of a friend so not difficult for most things. A few niggles, the cables round the bonnet hinges can be an issue as they get plastered with water etc and the plugs might need replacing (might be done already). The later the car is the better the build quality was one alleged purchase consideration but with the age of them now this is less an issue as it is down to how they have been looked after.
The S3 and later are easier to get in and out of with the longer doors. Later cars have inner front wings which stop spray being plastered all over the place, not sure when they came in but worth looking to see if they are fitted as I am not sure if they are available (did hear someone was making/planning to??). The S2,3,4 have the exhaust box down the centre of the chassis and there is not much room at either side so they can sometimes rattle annoyingly so occasional fiddling might be needed. The exhaust is also a little low and tends to ground at the front on swoopy down bits of road; I used to lift my bum when I saw it coming but of course to no effect! (I now have a Griff - which does have to be treated with more respect - and still tend to do that but with no effect as it doesn't ground!).
Would I have another S? Certainly they are super cars with an excellent bunch of knowledgeable and helpful people on the forum. Good luck with the search!
Jim

HugoS2

28 posts

79 months

Monday 2nd October 2017
quotequote all
I've just bought mine, if you want a new buyer advice. It is my first TVR, but I have always owned and used classic cars.
So I have bought an S2, 1990, Storm metalic grey. The first incredible thing about it is how comfortable it is. Loud, really loud (My father had tinnitus for three weeks after he drove it... It is not a joke.). Handling is great, the engine is bullet proof, and build quality is not as bad as you can read everywere.

For the bad points, it is so low that you can hardly park it in an underground parking and for the same reason, it is quite hard to work on it.


phillpot

17,105 posts

182 months

Monday 2nd October 2017
quotequote all
HugoS2 said:
build quality is not as bad as you can read everywere.
After 27 years I suspect most bits than fell off or came lose have been sorted wink

HugoS2 said:
and for the same reason, it is quite hard to work on it.
getting a jack under them can be a fiddle but once you've done that all is pretty straight forward?

Not a big fan of ramps (guess they have their uses), but driving onto some blocks will give a bit more room to slide a decent trolley jack under.....