Brake callipers upgrade

[cominoc]

tozerman said:

You will need at least 16" wheels in order to fit 300mm discs up front, they do look good though.
Cheers.....Tony..

Hi Tony, I know...
I will install 17" 225/45 wheels.
Original 15" wheels are not good for this car (my opinion): handling is not so good with 15" wheels, expecially in tight curves...

Edited by cominoc on Monday 21st September 19:04

[Gerald-TVR]

I could be at fault as much as anyone BUT can we improve on the car spec as it left the factory. All these brake upgrades were available then and they, TVR, didnt believe they were needed. for the Ford engined , 2.9 ltr car. I can understand the need for rear disks for the 4ltr V8 perhaps.

I have an S2 and feel that the rear drum brakes werent up to what chould have been fitted - BUT - the car stops grear without any drama. Do I need rear disks, almost certainly not - BUT - they are sexy.

No point in spending the money, if i were racing/sprinting/hill climbing maybe.

I collected all the bits i needed to replace all the bearings, ball joints, etc for the front suspension and someone said 'Why?' and i couldnt justify spending cash on soemthing that wasnt needed.

Lets not go over the top, yes lots will be needed for the future I'm sure i suspect we need to reserve cash for whats needed not just what we feel is sexy

[cominoc]

Hi Norman,
you are right, and I understand perfectly your point of view...
For me the point is:
If all the main brands give you the chance to upgrade rims, installing bigger ones, for example, why not ?
I mean, the car is ok also with the rims originally installed, from the overall handling point of view, but bigger rims are more sexy ...

Same is for the brakes...
I want to change rims, using bigger ones, because for me 15" are too small, and car handling suffers about it...
So, changing disks has the bad result that original discs are ridiculously small if viewed inside a 17" rim...
So, for me, the breaks upgrade arises only from an esthetic reason...
I agree with you that 2 pieces 300mm discs perhaps are exagerate, perhaps I'll choose for a 285 mm grooved discs, 4 pots calipers for the anterior and 253 mm grooved disks 2 pots calipers for the rear wheels. All the calipers will be silver, perhaps black (I don't like red ones...).
Sorry for my English, I hope my point of view has been clearly explained.
For me your opinion is important (very important) I'm really interested in what you think (you are english, i'm italian and perhaps look at cars in a different way, but here we are talking about an english car )

Edited by cominoc on Monday 21st September 19:44

[Gerald-TVR]

Hi Carlo

I can see where you are coming from - if you want to change wheels, brakes or whatever and you can afford to why not. You will finish up with a car you are happy with so thats OK , but it wont be a factory specified car. It wont be original but its yours and you are proud of it and thats OK.

My point is most, if not all, upgrades arn't essentisl or even needed. For example I dont need upgraded brakes as I dont even stress the originals, if I raced the car then that might be different. I would love rear disks but i dont need them.

I have been guilty of adding some extra bling under the bonnet and upgrading the 'walnut' dash far above the original but I like it.

I have been restoring cars for the last 40 years,







But while happy with a bit of bling i have always wanted originality above all. The last car, a 1949 MG TC rebuilt when it was about 20 years old, had non standard wheels and a highly tuned engine so was great funn to 'blow off' MGBs and hot Minis in the mid 60's. But could have been in standard trim within a couple of hours.

Been rambling quite lost what I was saying

But enjoy your car, BUT dont spoil it, its almost unique.

Norman

Edited by Gerald-TVR on Monday 21st September 21:08

[techbotics]

You may as well put the 273mm rear disks off the Granada Cosworth on the rear.. these bolt on using standard off the shelf parts. I am not sure what the smaller (250mm) conversion you mention comes off but the cost will likely be similar..

Re the fronts.. I was tempted myself.. did you see the Brembo (Fiat 20V Turbo and others) conversion I linked to on the other thread.. you can pick the callipers up for <£100 and I believe they are good for 320mm disks.. Caprisport should be able to help you out with mounting brackets etc..

I have Escort Cosworth 278mm on the front I did look at the super cheep XR4 260mm set up but having smaller brakes on the front than back is just wrong IMHO.

While I agree the standard brakes are fine they do fade with repeated application, larger disks / pads help this a lot.. especially for spirited or track driving.. go for it and let us know how it turns out..

Cheers

Damian

[cominoc]

Understood....
Thank you very much to everyone for your opinions...
I perfectly know I have an almost unique TVR and I'm very proud of this...
So I can assure you that I will not make anything to this car that is not reversible.
Just some mods to fit my feelings... But when (if ever...) I will decide to sell it, it will return to it's original aspect
Good night everyone

[cominoc]

techbotics said:

While I agree the standard brakes are fine they do fade with repeated application, larger disks / pads help this a lot.. especially for spirited or track driving.. go for it and let us know how it turns out..
Damian

Hi Damian,
thanks for your help, I've seen your post, I'll contact Caprisport...
Just one question, as you did the upgrade...
Do you think that my upgrade (300 mm anterior, 253 mm posterior) will unbalance the car ?
If so, how can I balance it again ?

[techbotics]

cominoc said:

techbotics said:

While I agree the standard brakes are fine they do fade with repeated application, larger disks / pads help this a lot.. especially for spirited or track driving.. go for it and let us know how it turns out..
Damian

Hi Damian,
thanks for your help, I've seen your post, I'll contact Caprisport...
Just one question, as you did the upgrade...
Do you think that my upgrade (300 mm anterior, 253 mm posterior) will unbalance the car ?
If so, how can I balance it again ?

I think this is a tricky one to answer.. but I will try non the less..

Obviously the combination of piston sizes and disk / pad or drum / shoe area and even friction compound will influence the braking force generated at each wheel.

I have been told that (a) I will need to rectify this on my car and (b) it will be just fine.. the second arguament comes from Hans who states that 278f and 273b will be ok as this is the combination used on a Griffith 500 and that the master cylinder is the same.. (I cannot confirm either of these statements but Hans seems an honest and knowlegable guy so it could be so.)

However as I am doing this anyway I though a bit of testing was in order.. I therefor intend to have the braking force measured at an MOT station before and afrer the conversion.. I will then KNOW the exact impact of the change.. its a shame i didn't do this prior to putting the Escort Cosworth set up on the front but...

If the balance has changes significantly then I guess it will need to be rectified by

(a) changing the master cylinder
(b) or putting some form of balance adjuster in line with the breaks so I can dial in the balance I need.
(c) putting larger brakes on the end that needs more braking force.

Its the braking ratio you need to maintain (is factory optimum..?) for the set up you want.. from there going larger both ends in the same ratio should result in the same balance.

I guess we could knock up a model using the piston ratio's etc and see what happens when we substitute different parts.. only sure how I would do half of this at them moment.

Hope this helps a little.. I should have my car back any day so will look at getting the current set up measured.

Don't forget balance is a personal thing.. racing cars can often be changed mid race or between corners in some formula. Rally cars tend to have a rear bias and standard Front engined Road cars are approx 60f:40r but mid engines and other factors mean this is not true for all cars. As a rule of thumb though you want the front to lock up first..

Cheers

Damian

[cominoc]

techbotics said:

cominoc said:

techbotics said:

While I agree the standard brakes are fine they do fade with repeated application, larger disks / pads help this a lot.. especially for spirited or track driving.. go for it and let us know how it turns out..
Damian

Hi Damian,
thanks for your help, I've seen your post, I'll contact Caprisport...
Just one question, as you did the upgrade...
Do you think that my upgrade (300 mm anterior, 253 mm posterior) will unbalance the car ?
If so, how can I balance it again ?

I think this is a tricky one to answer.. but I will try non the less..

Obviously the combination of piston sizes and disk / pad or drum / shoe area and even friction compound will influence the braking force generated at each wheel.

I have been told that (a) I will need to rectify this on my car and (b) it will be just fine.. the second arguament comes from Hans who states that 278f and 273b will be ok as this is the combination used on a Griffith 500 and that the master cylinder is the same.. (I cannot confirm either of these statements but Hans seems an honest and knowlegable guy so it could be so.)

However as I am doing this anyway I though a bit of testing was in order.. I therefor intend to have the braking force measured at an MOT station before and afrer the conversion.. I will then KNOW the exact impact of the change.. its a shame i didn't do this prior to putting the Escort Cosworth set up on the front but...

If the balance has changes significantly then I guess it will need to be rectified by

(a) changing the master cylinder
(b) or putting some form of balance adjuster in line with the breaks so I can dial in the balance I need.
(c) putting larger brakes on the end that needs more braking force.

Its the braking ratio you need to maintain (is factory optimum..?) for the set up you want.. from there going larger both ends in the same ratio should result in the same balance.

I guess we could knock up a model using the piston ratio's etc and see what happens when we substitute different parts.. only sure how I would do half of this at them moment.

Hope this helps a little.. I should have my car back any day so will look at getting the current set up measured.

Don't forget balance is a personal thing.. racing cars can often be changed mid race or between corners in some formula. Rally cars tend to have a rear bias and standard Front engined Road cars are approx 60f:40r but mid engines and other factors mean this is not true for all cars. As a rule of thumb though you want the front to lock up first..

Cheers

Damian

Thanks Damian for the answer...
I see It's avery complex question...
Ok I'll make my mods and then see what happens...

[techbotics]

Hi I found this..

http://www.mgf.ultimatemg.com/group2/brakes/big_re...

Looks like MG uprated the fronts but left the rear's as is.. many owners uprate the rears to compensate.

Cheers

Damian

Edited by techbotics on Tuesday 22 September 15:39

[TonupS2]

I agree that if your rear drum brakes on the early V6 cars are in good condition the car works just fine as it is. When I changed the rear drums to disks on my S2 the drums had been off the car for years and needed replacement and my thoughts were that if I was going to spend money then as the S4 V6 had been changed by TVR to disks, there must be a reason for the upgrade/change. I thought the V8S and the S4 both had the granada rear disks? with the same front disks as the early V6 (253mm dia?). I know a lot of V8S cars have had the small upgrade of front caliper and disk to the XR4 items. I wanted to keep the car reasonably in line with the approved accepted later S series setup. I'm a little concerned now, although I do plan to get the front to rear braking ratio checked once its back on the road.

Oh crap, change in spec. needed I thinks

Edited by TonupS2 on Tuesday 22 September 22:50

[techbotics]

According to the Bible

S1/2/3 Fronts are 239.7mm Disks, Rear is 228mm Drum

S4/V8 Fronts are 269mm Disks, Rear is 251mm Disks (Ford Sierra)

My Escort / Granada set up is 278mm Front Disks with 273mm Rears.. I will see how it is but admit I may need to change to the V8/S4 servo and master cylinder.

Cheers

Damian

[magpies]

on my S1 (ish) I will be fitting Chimaera AP 4 pots with 283mm fronts and 273mm single pots (sierra cossy) rears

just in case there will also be a bias valve and hopefully a hydraulic handbrake

[zombeh]

techbotics said:

According to the Bible
S4/V8 Fronts are 269mm Disks, Rear is 251mm Disks (Ford Sierra)

It's entirely possible that not all of them are the same, my v8 definately had the 240mm discs on the front (now 260mm sierra ones with griff 500 (presumably sierra) calipers)

[techbotics]

I was browsing around for brake info today and came accross these:

http://www.tvrcarparts.com/pages/partdetail.asp?id...

They look very sexy and is a 285mm upgrade to replace standard 240mm setup. 4 pot brake calipers anodised in your choice of black, red, silver or gold.

If you get a kit like this you get everything you need all nice and clean and new.. its from TVR Car Parts.. who are a good bunch and very knowledgable.. they did the Chassis Restoration on my S3. They supplied and fittend a load of upgrade parts while it was in bits too..

Hope this helps.. please let us know what you go for and how it turns out. The gold looks very good (hint hint...)

Damian

[cominoc]

techbotics said:

I was browsing around for brake info today and came accross these:

http://www.tvrcarparts.com/pages/partdetail.asp?id...

They look very sexy and is a 285mm upgrade to replace standard 240mm setup. 4 pot brake calipers anodised in your choice of black, red, silver or gold.

If you get a kit like this you get everything you need all nice and clean and new.. its from TVR Car Parts.. who are a good bunch and very knowledgable.. they did the Chassis Restoration on my S3. They supplied and fittend a load of upgrade parts while it was in bits too..

Hope this helps.. please let us know what you go for and how it turns out. The gold looks very good (hint hint...)

Damian

Hi Damian, thanks for your hints...
These are axactly the ones I want to install, I'll take them (both front and rear) from TVRCarParts
I'm just waiting to have the ok to install 17" rims and I'll be able to buy and install the new brakes...
I'll certainly let you know as the work will be done (also with some photos...)
To be honest, I like much the silver (or black) ones... IMHO...

Edited by cominoc on Thursday 24th September 16:24

[mikea4tdi]

Interesting thought on rear disk conversion.
When I was builing my haynes roadster (locost 7) uses sierra running gear I went for standard rear drums from the donor car. The rear uprights where a fabricated part that had the sierra bearing carrier bolted to it.

There was a different design upright for disc and drums however this company sold a bracket to convert a drum set up to disc, apparantly the swop over is simple.

http://www.3gecomponents.com/templates1/view_produ...

Can't see why it wouldn't be suitable for our s's? this may stop the requirement for new driveshaft ends, bearing carrieres that have the caliper bracket on and the wheel hubs(the bits in the picture from hans)

locostbuilders is a mine of information and there isn't much these guys don't know about doing budget upgrades with ford running gear.

Edited by mikea4tdi on Thursday 24th September 16:52

[techbotics]

cominoc said:

Hi Damian, thanks for your hints...
These are axactly the ones I want to install, I'll take them (both front and rear) from TVRCarParts
I'm just waiting to have the ok to install 17" rims and I'll be able to buy and install the new brakes...
I'll certainly let you know as the work will be done (also with some photos...)
To be honest, I like much the silver (or black) ones... IMHO...

Silver is cool too.. What width rims are you looking at 17x7/7.5/8 I don't really know what it would do for the handling but I am tempted to go for 8's for the back with standard offset (I think need to think this through) so they fill the arches.. ie the extra inch should be on the outside.

Not sure if these would fit on the front though.. perhaps 7.5 would be better.? Anyway I'm just curious what you planning to go for.

Cheers

Damian

[cominoc]

Yes, you are right...
I'm also thinking about 7.5
I just installed my 17" rims yesterday night...
Today If I can I'll take some pictures of the work

Original disks are microscopic inside these discs...

[clarenceboddiger]

I bought a brake upgrade for my V6 a while ago but as Im doing a V8 conversion as well on another car I decided to keep the conversion for that and I rebuilt my brakes back and front ,new discs etc. Now a few weeks ago I had to top fairly quickly on the Woodhead pass due to a sheep with no road sense and I was suprised how easy it was to lock up the wheels, im just wondering if the brake upgrades are really that necessary or wether a better performing disc pad would be sufficient in cases where fade is a problem.