Arnold gets another one

[cas20]

MissChief said:

So out of interest what car dealer groups are left in Central Scotland and what marques do they now cover? Truly independent Main Dealers have almost disappeared surely?

Arnold Clark (Harry Fairbairn) BMW/Mini/Ford/VW/Vauxhall etc
Park's BMW/Mini/Kia/Honda/Citroen/ etc
Evans Halshaw Ford
Peter Vardy Vauxhall/BMW/Mini
Phoenix Honda/Suzuki/Hyundai/Mazda/Mitsuibishi/Kia
Taggarts Jag/Land Rover/Volvo etc and Lomond Audi
Macklin Ford/Peugeot/Hyundai etc
Henrys Skoda/Honda
SDM Toyota/Mazda/Hyundai
Inch VW
Belmont/Murray Kia/Volvo etc
EasternWestern VW/Honda/BMW/Mini etc
MacRae and Dick Ford/BMW/Mini
John Clark Pentland Land Rover
Morrisons of Stirling Seat/Land Rover
W Livingston Seat
Manufacturer owned Citroen/Peugeot/Merc etc
West End Skoda
Stirling Skoda
Ian Grieve Suzuki etc
Noble Nissan
Ingram VW/Skoda ayrshire
Border Cars in ayr too

Edited by cas20 on Monday 9th February 00:49

Edited by cas20 on Monday 9th February 00:53

[cas20]

Peoples Ford
Dalkeith Ford


probably missed some others .... now their are some independents in Fife

[MissChief]

Ok so a few more than I was expecting. I guess this is why none of 'the powers that be' are getting their knickers in a tizzy over a possible monopolistic position developing. How much longer will these 'indies' with only one of two franchises last I wonder?

[cas20]

MissChief said:

Ok so a few more than I was expecting. I guess this is why none of 'the powers that be' are getting their knickers in a tizzy over a possible monopolistic position developing. How much longer will these 'indies' with only one of two franchises last I wonder?

Yeah there is choice out there. Very few small players though.

The big groups have the power. In Glasgow, Arnold Clark dominates but you still have..

Arnold Clark
Macklin Motors Ford/Nissan
Evans Halshaw Ford
Phoenix Honda/Suzuki
Park's BMW/Mini
Taggarts Jaguar/Land Rover/Volvo and Lomond Audi
EW Lexus/Alfa
Stratstone Mercedes
Henry's Honda/Skoda
Peter Vardy CarStore and MotorPoint (worth a mention I feel)
Manufacturer owned Citreon/Peugeot and luxury marques.

I am guessing with Lomond Audi now in tow, Lookers is number 2 in Glasgow behind Arnold and ahead of Park's??

[alangla]

There's more indies in more "out of the way" places I've noticed, e.g. Lix Toll garage selling Land Rovers just outside Killin, W.D. Semple selling Renaults in Inverary & Kintyre, Morrisons near Bannockburn selling MG etc.

Does John Cleland still have that Volvo dealers in Galashiels? In fact, do any of the big groups own sites in the Borders?

[cas20]

alangla said:

There's more indies in more "out of the way" places I've noticed, e.g. Lix Toll garage selling Land Rovers just outside Killin, W.D. Semple selling Renaults in Inverary & Kintyre, Morrisons near Bannockburn selling MG etc.

Does John Cleland still have that Volvo dealers in Galashiels? In fact, do any of the big groups own sites in the Borders?

Belmont/JM Group have a Kia and Suzuki site in the Borders. They are the remains of a big group I guess.
Cleland do still hold the Volvo franchise- Murray have ditched it in East Lothian so maybe a wee boost for Clelands. EW have a Merc frnachise in Coldstream if I remember correctly?

[marshal_alan]

add to the independents

Kerr Baillie in ardrossan for ford and skoda

dont know if william clark still has ford at kilbirnie

[cas20]

marshal_alan said:

add to the independents

Kerr Baillie in ardrossan for ford and skoda

dont know if william clark still has ford at kilbirnie

think KB has lost/given up Skoda. But speaking of Ayrshire, Alastair Fleming/TOM Citroen should have been on my list as should Hardie Peugeot in the central Scotland area

[Drive Blind]

marshal_alan said:

dont know if william clark still has ford at kilbirnie

theres still a ford dealership at that location but its called garnock valley ford now. Has been garnock valley ford for at least 5 years.

[HendryG]

To answer a few questions here, Kerr Baillie last had a Skoda franchise in 2002! The reason for its loss I was told by Stephen Beveridge (one of the owners son) was that what's now the Ford dealership and Kerr Baillie's now only outlet was at the time the Skoda showroom, they had a Rover dealership further up which after MG Rover went bust was closed and knocked down as part of the Ardrossan Asda build, anyway the Skoda servicing, repairs and warranty work was being carried out at the Rover dealership by Rover mechanics, Skoda wanted a workshop of their own an their own set of mechanics, Kerr Baillie felt this wasn't worth it, so the franchise was removed.

Evans Halshaw in Scotland in addition to Ford at Kirkintilloch, Glasgow Cumbernauld Road, East Kilbride, Motherwell, Coatbridge, and Kirkcaldy also have Vauxhall in Edinburgh, Ardrossan, Kilmarnock, Grangemouth, and Peugeot/Renault in Edinburgh. plus Stratstone Merc at Glasgow Milton Street, Giffnock, Ayr and Hamilton.

Parks although most of their sites are concentrated within Lanarkshire and Ayrshire are probably second in size to Arnold's in Scotland. They are expanding however, e.g. making their Irvine Renault site a multi franchise, taking over the ex Verve sites in Coatbridge, and Bathgate, taking on McLaren, Maserati, Peugeot and Mitsubishi franchises recently.

I find most independents exist within more "niche" franchises and more out of town locations, and I also think the independent one dealership companies have learned the only way to survive is to have a few sites, take Ingram's for example, or West End Skoda who have in the past 3/4 years expanded from 1/2 sites to 4 or 5.

Every dealer excluding JM Group/Murray/Belmont, noe known as Belmont Group is expanding, they gave been gradually downsizing for the past 10 years since John Martin Junior died who was to be his father's successor in the business. Now they only have 3 sites in Selkirk, Wallyford and Sighthill.

There's other smaller groups too like Border Cars in Ayr, Stranraer, Dumfries, Carlisle and Workington for Mazda, Kia, Mitsubishi, Skoda, Fiat, Ford, Chrysler Jeep, etc. And in the borders DS Dalgleish in Coldstream and Galashiels for Nissan, Fiat, Citroen and Vauxhall. Barnett's in Dundee and St Andrews - Peugeot, VW, Volvo and Mazda.

Independent franchises I can think of:
- Kerr and Smith Vauxhall Cumnock (admittedly they have sites in Ayr and Glasgow too, commercial workshops, a body shop, Iveco trucks etc but Cumnock Vauxhall is their only car dealership now)
- Springside Motors Kia in Irvine
- S & S Subaru and Isuzu in Ayr
- Flear & Thomson Kia in Dunfermline
- Ewens of Cornhill Honda in Aberdeenshire
- Gillanders Motors Peugeot and Suzuki in Peterhead
- Alan Milne Peugeot Elgin
- Crossflags BMW Dumfries
- Dickson's of Forres and Inverness Nissan and Kia
- Fiskens of Forfar Vauxhall and Kia
- James Haugh Vauxhall in Dumfries and Castle Douglas
- W & J Duncan Ford in Rothesay
- Clyne Autos Fiat Peterhead
- W B Cowan Tranent Fiat
- Grierson and Graham Honda Dumfries
- Brown Brothers Honda and Renault Peebles
- West End Honda Dundee
- Gordon Motors Suzuki Crieff
- Pearson Suzuki Largs and Wemyss Bay
- Frank Ogg Land Rover Elgin
- Campbeltown Motor Co Peugeot
- Allison Motors Vauxhall Port William and Newton Stewart
- Mackie Motors Nissan and Renault Arbroath, Brechin
- Glenford Forfar
- Guthrie Bros Ford Montrose
- Newmarket Garage Skoda Bannockburn
- Fife Seat Glenrothes
- Walker Citroen Cupar and Kirkcaldy
- Bannerman Seat Inverness
- Cupar and Dalkeith Ford Centres
- Duthies Citroen Montrose.
- Ian Grieve Falkirk Subaru, Isuzu, Chrysler, Jeep and Suzuki
- Frasers of Falkirk Chevrolet and SsangYong
- Adam Purves Mitsubishi
- Station Garage Mitsubishi Torphins
- Brentwood Suzuki Kirkcaldy


There's probably a few more but certainly in the more central areas, the West and more inner city areas Arnold runs the show, particularly with brands like Chrysler Jeep (barring Belmont Wallyford I don't know of another non Arnold dealer for the brand) for stuff like Peugeot, Fiat, Kia, Hyundai, he barring a handfuo ofplaces runs the franchise for the whole of Scotland from South to North.

Edited by HendryG on Monday 9th February 20:29

[cas20]

HendryG said:

To answer a few questions here, Kerr Baillie last had a Skoda franchise in 2002! The reason for its loss I was told by Stephen Beveridge (one of the owners son) was that what's now the Ford dealership and Kerr Baillie's now only outlet was at the time the Skoda showroom, they had a Rover dealership further up which after MG Rover went bust was closed and knocked down as part of the Ardrossan Asda build, anyway the Skoda servicing, repairs and warranty work was being carried out at the Rover dealership by Rover mechanics, Skoda wanted a workshop of their own an their own set of mechanics, Kerr Baillie felt this wasn't worth it, so the franchise was removed.

Evans Halshaw in Scotland in addition to Ford at Kirkintilloch, Glasgow Cumbernauld Road, East Kilbride, Motherwell, Coatbridge, and Kirkcaldy also have Vauxhall in Edinburgh, Ardrossan, Kilmarnock, Grangemouth, and Peugeot/Renault in Edinburgh. plus Stratstone Merc at Glasgow Milton Street, Giffnock, Ayr and Hamilton.

Parks although most of their sites are concentrated within Lanarkshire and Ayrshire are probably second in size to Arnold's in Scotland. They are expanding however, e.g. making their Irvine Renault site a multi franchise, taking over the ex Verve sites in Coatbridge, and Bathgate, taking on McLaren, Maserati, Peugeot and Mitsubishi franchises recently.

I find most independents exist within more "niche" franchises and more out of town locations, and I also think the independent one dealership companies have learned the only way to survive is to have a few sites, take Ingram's for example, or West End Skoda who have in the past 3/4 years expanded from 1/2 sites to 4 or 5.

Every dealer excluding JM Group/Murray/Belmont, noe known as Belmont Group is expanding, they gave been gradually downsizing for the past 10 years since John Martin Junior died who was to be his father's successor in the business. Now they only have 3 sites in Selkirk, Wallyford and Sighthill.

There's other smaller groups too like Border Cars in Ayr, Stranraer, Dumfries, Carlisle and Workington for Mazda, Kia, Mitsubishi, Skoda, Fiat, Ford, Chrysler Jeep, etc. And in the borders DS Dalgleish in Coldstream and Galashiels for Nissan, Fiat, Citroen and Vauxhall. Barnett's in Dundee and St Andrews - Peugeot, VW, Volvo and Mazda.

Independent franchises I can think of:
- Kerr and Smith Vauxhall Cumnock (admittedly they have sites in Ayr and Glasgow too, commercial workshops, a body shop, Iveco trucks etc but Cumnock Vauxhall is their only car dealership now)
- Springside Motors Kia in Irvine
- S & S Subaru and Isuzu in Ayr
- Flear & Thomson Kia in Dunfermline
- Ewens of Cornhill Honda in Aberdeenshire
- Gillanders Motors Peugeot and Suzuki in Peterhead
- Alan Milne Peugeot Elgin
- Crossflags BMW Dumfries
- Dickson's of Forres and Inverness Nissan and Kia
- Fiskens of Forfar Vauxhall and Kia
- James Haugh Vauxhall in Dumfries and Castle Douglas
- W & J Duncan Ford in Rothesay
- Clyne Autos Fiat Peterhead
- W B Cowan Tranent Fiat
- Grierson and Graham Honda Dumfries
- Brown Brothers Honda and Renault Peebles
- West End Honda Dundee
- Gordon Motors Suzuki Crieff
- Pearson Suzuki Largs and Wemyss Bay
- Frank Ogg Land Rover Elgin
- Campbeltown Motor Co Peugeot
- Allison Motors Vauxhall Port William and Newton Stewart
- Mackie Motors Nissan and Renault Arbroath, Brechin
- Glenford Forfar
- Guthrie Bros Ford Montrose
- Newmarket Garage Skoda Bannockburn
- Fife Seat Glenrothes
- Walker Citroen Cupar and Kirkcaldy
- Bannerman Seat Inverness
- Cupar and Dalkeith Ford Centres
- Duthies Citroen Montrose.
- Ian Grieve Falkirk Subaru, Isuzu, Chrysler, Jeep and Suzuki
- Frasers of Falkirk Chevrolet and SsangYong
- Adam Purves Mitsubishi
- Station Garage Mitsubishi Torphins
- Brentwood Suzuki Kirkcaldy


There's probably a few more but certainly in the more central areas, the West and more inner city areas Arnold runs the show, particularly with brands like Chrysler Jeep (barring Belmont Wallyford I don't know of another non Arnold dealer for the brand) for stuff like Peugeot, Fiat, Kia, Hyundai, he barring a handfuo ofplaces runs the franchise for the whole of Scotland from South to North.

Edited by HendryG on Monday 9th February 20:29

John Clark is a good bit bigger than Park's (especially with the coach business stripped out) in terms of sales and expanding as well. The ex-Verve sites in Coatbridge and Bathgate were dogs as far back as my old employer Motorway cars. I think Arnold's moves in West Calder will only serve to heap more pressure on the Bathgate site and I know people in Coatbridge who will avoid Park due to the Rangers connection. I think Coatbridge leans a certain way. Park could have a multi-franchise site for all 6 of the Coatbridge franchises as a possible future investment similiar to their Irvine expansion. They could expand into the industrial areas around their Shawhead site.

Belmont/JM Group has shrunk as has Phoenix which has lost 3 of the 6 geographical sites it had.

Ian Grieve runs a Chrysler/Jeep site in Falkirk. (ex Drive site if I remember) Think he acquired after selling his Vauxhall sites to Arnold in 2007 ish.

[cas20]

Hyundai is still quite mixed... SDM in Falkirk, Phoenix in Paisley, Macklin X 2 in Edinurgh, Taggarts in Motherwell, Ingram in Ayr, Walker in Fife (I think!)

[HendryG]

cas20 said:

John Clark is a good bit bigger than Park's (especially with the coach business stripped out) in terms of sales and expanding as well. The ex-Verve sites in Coatbridge and Bathgate were dogs as far back as my old employer Motorway cars. I think Arnold's moves in West Calder will only serve to heap more pressure on the Bathgate site and I know people in Coatbridge who will avoid Park due to the Rangers connection. I think Coatbridge leans a certain way. Park could have a multi-franchise site for all 6 of the Coatbridge franchises as a possible future investment similiar to their Irvine expansion. They could expand into the industrial areas around their Shawhead site.

Belmont/JM Group has shrunk as has Phoenix which has lost 3 of the 6 geographical sites it had.

Ian Grieve runs a Chrysler/Jeep site in Falkirk. (ex Drive site if I remember) Think he acquired after selling his Vauxhall sites to Arnold in 2007 ish.

I was talking more in terms of presence, number of franchises, number of sites etc when I said Parks are 2nd biggest.

I'd agree Bathgate and Dundyvan Road Parks sites are a mess, my mentioning of them was more to illustrate Park are at least trying to expand, there was a period a few years back where Arnold kept getting bigger and Parks were sitting idle, they have at least tried to improve the Dundyvan Road site, the showrooms have been refurbished and Kia now occupies its own original space plus the Citroen showroom and Citroen has moved into the front showroom which was originally the Peugeot area. The Mitsubishi franchise added to the Whifflet Street Renault/Suzuki site is presently in a temporary 'pop up' showroom in the middle of the forecourt but they do plan to build a proper showroom for it, although I don't think there's any space to build a further showroom at Whiffler Street so your suggestion about a multi franchise development could have a good point. I think the problem with Parks is they own all their sites outright and don't seem to want to move, unlike Arnold who if they own a site and decide to relocate that dealership nearby either dispose of the old site or sell it for flats, turn it into retail space etc Parks don't seem keen to do that! Hence they end up stuck on old, rough looking sites. Looking at their Bathgate site though. It looks like theres lots of spare space to either rebuild the dealerships or expand them, behind the showrooms where the fence and red ash/red stones are where all the cars are parked like a compound has a sepsrwfte building, not sure what it was used for originally but they could build the showrooms there giving them plenty space for customer parking and a huge used CSF display, dog rough sites are nothing new to Parks though, EK could do with an update and the Motherwell site hasn't been touched for over 10 years when it changed from Vauxhall to Renault, its scruffy as inside and is a very odd "elevated" showrooms with workshop and parts dept beneath. The Hamilton Skoda site is a mess too.

Ian Grieve has had the ex Drive/David Morrison site in Falkirk since it went under in 2005, when it was just Subaru/Isuzu, he kept the Falkirk site when he sold his Stirling Vauxhall and Devonvale Alloa Vauxhall sites to Arnold.

[cas20]

I think it is safe to say Park's has second biggest presence in West of Scotland, EW has second biggest presence in the East and John Clark in Aberdeen/Dundee. Park bought the wrong Verve sites-it should have went after VW Wishaw/Rutherglen as it needs a volume franchise like ford/vw/vauxhall. It would have kept Arnold out of hugely contested Lanarkshire market

[HendryG]

cas20 said:

I think it is safe to say Park's has second biggest presence in West of Scotland, EW has second biggest presence in the East and John Clark in Aberdeen/Dundee. Park bought the wrong Verve sites-it should have went after VW Wishaw/Rutherglen as it needs a volume franchise like ford/vw/vauxhall. It would have kept Arnold out of hugely contested Lanarkshire market

I honestly cannot see Parks taking on something like Ford, Vauxhall or VW. VW because Arnold covets it so badly that he'd always win a bidding war, when I worked at Citroen Arnold's in Linwood we pretty much got chucked out and shacked up with the Fiat franchise at Renfrew Road because Arnold had wanted a VW franchise at Linwood for years, within 2 years of acquiring Ingram's at Rowan Street they'd move it, I don't think Arnold actually went after Verves VW sites either, thry were acquired well over a year before Verve went into liquidation, seemingly with these being the most valuable and sought after franchises Verve hsd it actually offered Arnold them so it could use the money to try and turn its losses around, most of Arnold's acquisitions are actually offered to them rather than them approaching the vendors.

Re Ford, Parks ran a Ford franchise in Strathaven many years ago (not the ex Townparks site Arnold now runs, it was on Darvel road and they ditched the franchise to make the site Strathaven Caravans and Motorhomes, its now houses) and they ran Vauxhall in Motherwell and East Kilbride but chose not to try and keep their franchise when it was up for renewal in 2004 because they couldn't compete with Arnold because Vauxhall were selling them cars more expensive than they were Arnold's, or at least this was the story the Motherwell salesman who sold me an Astra in 2010 told me.

There again after they dropped the Peugeot franchise in Ayr and Kilmarnock in 2002 I didn't envisage them taking it back on again which they did with the Bathgate Verve site acquisition.

[cas20]

HendryG said:

I honestly cannot see Parks taking on something like Ford, Vauxhall or VW. VW because Arnold covets it so badly that he'd always win a bidding war, when I worked at Citroen Arnold's in Linwood we pretty much got chucked out and shacked up with the Fiat franchise at Renfrew Road because Arnold had wanted a VW franchise at Linwood for years, within 2 years of acquiring Ingram's at Rowan Street they'd move it, I don't think Arnold actually went after Verves VW sites either, thry were acquired well over a year before Verve went into liquidation, seemingly with these being the most valuable and sought after franchises Verve hsd it actually offered Arnold them so it could use the money to try and turn its losses around, most of Arnold's acquisitions are actually offered to them rather than them approaching the vendors.

Re Ford, Parks ran a Ford franchise in Strathaven many years ago (not the ex Townparks site Arnold now runs, it was on Darvel road and they ditched the franchise to make the site Strathaven Caravans and Motorhomes, its now houses) and they ran Vauxhall in Motherwell and East Kilbride but chose not to try and keep their franchise when it was up for renewal in 2004 because they couldn't compete with Arnold because Vauxhall were selling them cars more expensive than they were Arnold's, or at least this was the story the Motherwell salesman who sold me an Astra in 2010 told me.

There again after they dropped the Peugeot franchise in Ayr and Kilmarnock in 2002 I didn't envisage them taking it back on again which they did with the Bathgate Verve site acquisition.

I am thinking as much of defending one's "territory" as I am anything else. Verve sold off all 4 of it's VW sites a good few years before it finally went.

[S2red]

" I know people in Coatbridge who will avoid Park due to the Rangers connection" so sad but so true

West of Scotland at it's worst

[cas20]

S2red said:

" I know people in Coatbridge who will avoid Park due to the Rangers connection" so sad but so true

West of Scotland at it's worst

I only know from a facebook discussion I had a read it. Sure it happens with football rivalries else where in the UK/world

[HendryG]

cas20 said:

I am thinking as much of defending one's "territory" as I am anything else. Verve sold off all 4 of it's VW sites a good few years before it finally went.

I know Bradfords of Dumfries and Harper and Henson in Carlisle were sold off to Benfield a few years before they went, but the Rutherglen and Wishaw sites only went to Arnold just over a year before they went because they ran into trouble, think they sold to Arnold in August 2012 and went bust October 2013.

I do find it odd how Arnold although they do sell vans and have a few van dealerships had no interest in Verves VW Commercial place or John R Weirs Merc commercials which they sold almost immediately after takeover to TOM.

[HendryG]

cas20 said:

I am thinking as much of defending one's "territory" as I am anything else. Verve sold off all 4 of it's VW sites a good few years before it finally went.

I know Bradfords of Dumfries and Harper and Henson in Carlisle were sold off to Benfield a few years before they went, but the Rutherglen and Wishaw sites only went to Arnold just over a year before they went because they ran into trouble, think they sold to Arnold in August 2012 and went bust October 2013.

I do find it odd how Arnold although they do sell vans and have a few van dealerships had no interest in Verves VW Commercial place or John R Weirs Merc commercials which they sold almost immediately after takeover to TOM.