Restart Problem - no spark (280i 1986)
Discussion
Staring a new thread and hoping for help:
My car has been sidelined for some time because it will not start when warmed up. I am very much trying to get it on the road this spring so...
I have replaced the fuel accumulator, coil, ignition module(s). I have fuel and fuel pressure. Plugs, plug , wires, rotor and cap all look/test OK. Battery, starter & alternator are OK.
What I'm missing is a spark when the engine is up to temperature. Any suggestions on what or where to test next?
ETA: I checked the ballast resister since it's something I hadn't played with: the battery was low at 12.5 volts, 6.8 Vt with the key on, engine off, 9.8 VT running but I didn't see 12 volts when cranking.
Getting frustrated!!! Thanks. Grady
My car has been sidelined for some time because it will not start when warmed up. I am very much trying to get it on the road this spring so...
- It starts when cold. May die once or twice but immediately restarts. Takes a little feather of the throttle when cold but all good.
- Once warmed up, It runs/drives normally (for a while anyway).
- Once up to temperate, it may re-start if I turn it off and then restart within the minute.
- But if I wait 10-15 minutes, it will not start until it get stone cold (i.e. the next morning). It will crank with no spark until the battery runs down.
I have replaced the fuel accumulator, coil, ignition module(s). I have fuel and fuel pressure. Plugs, plug , wires, rotor and cap all look/test OK. Battery, starter & alternator are OK.
What I'm missing is a spark when the engine is up to temperature. Any suggestions on what or where to test next?
ETA: I checked the ballast resister since it's something I hadn't played with: the battery was low at 12.5 volts, 6.8 Vt with the key on, engine off, 9.8 VT running but I didn't see 12 volts when cranking.
Getting frustrated!!! Thanks. Grady
Edited by Grady on Sunday 11th March 00:14
Both of mine are V8s however it does sound like an ignition amp issue? One of the best investments I've made was a set of the neon spark plug indicators that clip on to the top of the spark plugs and you then attach the HT leads. It's really clear if it's then an HT spark issue or not.
You may be getting a little confused with what voltages you should be getting at the ignition side of the coil when cranking
The voltage at the coil when cranking should be close to the voltage at the battery when cranking, when cranking the voltage at the battery drops by 2 to 3 volts if the battery and starter motor are healthy. You need to re-check the voltages allowing for volt drop when cranking
There is something else that I don't think you have mentioned but i could be wrong, you mention no spark when cranking, do you mean no spark at the plugs or out of the distributor king lead, you need to check for a spark out of the king lead before checking for it at the plugs
The thing is - You won't get a spark out of the king lead if there is not sufficient voltage at the coil, check and rectify the coil voltage problem first
The voltage at the coil when cranking should be close to the voltage at the battery when cranking, when cranking the voltage at the battery drops by 2 to 3 volts if the battery and starter motor are healthy. You need to re-check the voltages allowing for volt drop when cranking
There is something else that I don't think you have mentioned but i could be wrong, you mention no spark when cranking, do you mean no spark at the plugs or out of the distributor king lead, you need to check for a spark out of the king lead before checking for it at the plugs
The thing is - You won't get a spark out of the king lead if there is not sufficient voltage at the coil, check and rectify the coil voltage problem first
In the no stones unturned scattergun approach to spannering that I use it may be worth checking the starter. If its tired it will draw loads of current when hot but can be ok when cold, same applies to the supply cables. This could cause hot starting issues.... Probably not but it doesn't cost anything to check. Issues i've had in the past with ballast resistors have made cold starting difficult but not affected hot starting.
This does sound a difficult one.. I hope you get it sorted.
This does sound a difficult one.. I hope you get it sorted.
mrzigazaga said:
There are two coil fitments for the Ford 2.8i..one is for points and the other electronic ignition...have you the right one?....
I think so (or, that's what I was sold anyway). Unfortunate I had to cook all day yesterday and now I away from the car till later in the week. I'll be back...
Grady said:
Staring a new thread and hoping for help:
My car has been sidelined for some time because it will not start when warmed up. I am very much trying to get it on the road this spring so...
I have replaced the fuel accumulator, coil, ignition module(s). I have fuel and fuel pressure. Plugs, plug , wires, rotor and cap all look/test OK. Battery, starter & alternator are OK.
What I'm missing is a spark when the engine is up to temperature. Any suggestions on what or where to test next?
ETA: I checked the ballast resister since it's something I hadn't played with: the battery was low at 12.5 volts, 6.8 Vt with the key on, engine off, 9.8 VT running but I didn't see 12 volts when cranking.
Getting frustrated!!! Thanks. Grady
I've read this a few times...initially it sounds like a thermotime swich issue or WUR. as they are the components affected by temperature.My car has been sidelined for some time because it will not start when warmed up. I am very much trying to get it on the road this spring so...
- It starts when cold. May die once or twice but immediately restarts. Takes a little feather of the throttle when cold but all good.
- Once warmed up, It runs/drives normally (for a while anyway).
- Once up to temperate, it may re-start if I turn it off and then restart within the minute.
- But if I wait 10-15 minutes, it will not start until it get stone cold (i.e. the next morning). It will crank with no spark until the battery runs down.
I have replaced the fuel accumulator, coil, ignition module(s). I have fuel and fuel pressure. Plugs, plug , wires, rotor and cap all look/test OK. Battery, starter & alternator are OK.
What I'm missing is a spark when the engine is up to temperature. Any suggestions on what or where to test next?
ETA: I checked the ballast resister since it's something I hadn't played with: the battery was low at 12.5 volts, 6.8 Vt with the key on, engine off, 9.8 VT running but I didn't see 12 volts when cranking.
Getting frustrated!!! Thanks. Grady
Edited by Grady on Sunday 11th March 00:14
Second reading (and a little bit of thought) I think it is your coil, I know it is new, but sounds likes it's toast (literally) next time the car stops or stalls check to see if it's really xxxxing hot.
I suspect it may be the wrong coil for use with a ballast.
The coil is labeled "12 Volt, For external resister NAPA 903" - So I think it's the correct one. (NAPA is a USA brand)
And I warmed the engine up and no got restart but the coil was not particularly hot - it read 100 degrees F (vs 80 degrees ambient) about the same as the rest of the bay (the engine obviously was way hotter).
Did not have more time to play. Grady
And I warmed the engine up and no got restart but the coil was not particularly hot - it read 100 degrees F (vs 80 degrees ambient) about the same as the rest of the bay (the engine obviously was way hotter).
Did not have more time to play. Grady
I'm sure you have the manuals that come with the US 280s.
From memory there are some pretty good diagrams that show what is used to get 12v to the coil with the key in the start position and then what circuitry is used with key in the run position.
When the car is hot and will not start, put ignition key in run position and manually operate the starter.
pull off existing wire from solonoid and run a wire up from the starter sol and just tap it on the battery.
Have your inline spark tester on a convenient plug too.
This test is the same as push starting the car with key in run position, it excludes the start circuitry except you don't have a dead car at the bottom of a hill if it doesn't start.
If the car starts hot then you almost certainly have an electrical component that is breaking down resistor or capacitor in the components that are only used with the key in start position . Capacitors are generally less durable, but I had a decent wattage 100ohm resister go to zero when hot (Porsche not TVR)
But first I would clean up connections, alcohol, then dielectric grease, make sure everything feels tight when connected.
But spend a few minutes on those two diagrams so you can see the different route of ignition voltage re the key position.
From memory there are some pretty good diagrams that show what is used to get 12v to the coil with the key in the start position and then what circuitry is used with key in the run position.
When the car is hot and will not start, put ignition key in run position and manually operate the starter.
pull off existing wire from solonoid and run a wire up from the starter sol and just tap it on the battery.
Have your inline spark tester on a convenient plug too.
This test is the same as push starting the car with key in run position, it excludes the start circuitry except you don't have a dead car at the bottom of a hill if it doesn't start.
If the car starts hot then you almost certainly have an electrical component that is breaking down resistor or capacitor in the components that are only used with the key in start position . Capacitors are generally less durable, but I had a decent wattage 100ohm resister go to zero when hot (Porsche not TVR)
But first I would clean up connections, alcohol, then dielectric grease, make sure everything feels tight when connected.
But spend a few minutes on those two diagrams so you can see the different route of ignition voltage re the key position.
Well, this is awkward but it turned out that my neon tester was bad. Got a new tester and had spark (hot & cold, coil and plug). So I then guessed no fuel???
I plugged my CIS meter in and had steady pressures. I've posted the testing that I could do with the run sensor in place (so all the values are cranking or running, not static). Some of the values are a little low but is it enough to suggest a failing pump? The pressure was very steady.
I was able - somehow, I'm not sure exactly what worked - to tweak it so that it starts (so far). Not running great (will not rev past K4) but at least for today it starts which is a huge improvement. It earned a bath.
Good use for a rear wing - just the right height!
Thanks for the help! Grady
I plugged my CIS meter in and had steady pressures. I've posted the testing that I could do with the run sensor in place (so all the values are cranking or running, not static). Some of the values are a little low but is it enough to suggest a failing pump? The pressure was very steady.
I was able - somehow, I'm not sure exactly what worked - to tweak it so that it starts (so far). Not running great (will not rev past K4) but at least for today it starts which is a huge improvement. It earned a bath.
Good use for a rear wing - just the right height!
Thanks for the help! Grady
Edited by Grady on Saturday 24th March 23:14
Edited by Grady on Sunday 25th March 15:45
Intermittent neon tester-that sucks
Your test results.
the 60 psi is (I assume) system pressure and should always be constant, whether the car is hot or cold. it should not drop.
You need to test the control pressure....thats what gets to the injectors.
The control pressure is regulated by the WUR and WILL change with temperature.
With regard to "some improvement", it is possible (my guess) doing the flow test may have "loosened" something up.
You could put a bottle of B12 Chemtool in the tank, and redo the flow test, can't do any harm.
retest system pressure.
Then move on and test the control pressure with the wire pulled off the WUR, then repeat with the car hot, assuming you can get it hot.
B12 chemtool should be available at Pep Boys, if not Advance Auto or Autozone, I guess you have at least one of them in your part of Texas.
I don't have the pressure test chart, so I making the assuption that 60 is ok as the system pressure. I am also making the assumption that you do have the charts. On the chart it should show the control pressure for hot and cold and the allowable range considering ambient.
I don't think you initially need to be too pedantic and look for perfect pressure readings, more important to see the variation when testing the output of the WUR (control pressure) between hot and cold.
Your test results.
the 60 psi is (I assume) system pressure and should always be constant, whether the car is hot or cold. it should not drop.
You need to test the control pressure....thats what gets to the injectors.
The control pressure is regulated by the WUR and WILL change with temperature.
With regard to "some improvement", it is possible (my guess) doing the flow test may have "loosened" something up.
You could put a bottle of B12 Chemtool in the tank, and redo the flow test, can't do any harm.
retest system pressure.
Then move on and test the control pressure with the wire pulled off the WUR, then repeat with the car hot, assuming you can get it hot.
B12 chemtool should be available at Pep Boys, if not Advance Auto or Autozone, I guess you have at least one of them in your part of Texas.
I don't have the pressure test chart, so I making the assuption that 60 is ok as the system pressure. I am also making the assumption that you do have the charts. On the chart it should show the control pressure for hot and cold and the allowable range considering ambient.
I don't think you initially need to be too pedantic and look for perfect pressure readings, more important to see the variation when testing the output of the WUR (control pressure) between hot and cold.
With the engine running and warmed up, the pressure going to the WUR was a steady 68 PSI (not fluctuating) on my gauge, The manual calls for 73 + 6 PSI. So just w/in range. Next I'll figure out how to bypass the run sensor and check the static/cold pressures.
I bought a new neon tester. I'll try some B-12. I had added a bottle of Techron.
Also the filter is only 1-2 years old, accumulator is new, pump came with the car ~18 years ago.
I bought a new neon tester. I'll try some B-12. I had added a bottle of Techron.
Also the filter is only 1-2 years old, accumulator is new, pump came with the car ~18 years ago.
If you are unsure how to op the fuel pump.........hot wire it.
10ft of wire with a 20amp line fuse, croc clip to battery.
Get your cold control pressure.
Run car until hot, repeat test.
I hope this isn't something silly like intermittent ground on the pump. So easy to lose grounds on glass cars. especially if they sit for a while.
If you are going under the car to connect a wire to the pump, clean up the ground connection while you are there.
10ft of wire with a 20amp line fuse, croc clip to battery.
Get your cold control pressure.
Run car until hot, repeat test.
I hope this isn't something silly like intermittent ground on the pump. So easy to lose grounds on glass cars. especially if they sit for a while.
If you are going under the car to connect a wire to the pump, clean up the ground connection while you are there.
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