The "Real" tax rate in France...
Discussion
magooagain said:
I suppose some may pay that amount,but I don't know anyone that does.
The figures are based on the so called tax "wedge", that adds employer contributions to arrive at a "real gross salary", and make a stab at the typical VAT paid by the individual to arrive at the "real net salary". The "tax liberation day" muddies things further as it includes the employer contribution as being paid off by the employee.It is of course one way of looking at it.
Much more straightforward is the final chart at the source that the article is based on: http://www.institutmolinari.org/IMG/pdf/tax-burden...
I hope that Companies considering moving from the UK to mainland Europe will take note of it.
Steve
Taxation is only the beginning, add the employer-employee contracts to the mix and I seriously wonder how france manages to have any business employing people at all. An American VP once told me he'd never hire in France.
Moves are being made in the right direction, not far enough but the American/UK ways aren't necessarily best either, somewhere in the middle imo is what's needed. We'll see how the country responds to the changes in the next few weeks, it's hard to undo 50 years of absolute employee protection !!!
Moves are being made in the right direction, not far enough but the American/UK ways aren't necessarily best either, somewhere in the middle imo is what's needed. We'll see how the country responds to the changes in the next few weeks, it's hard to undo 50 years of absolute employee protection !!!
thefrog said:
. An American VP once told me he'd never hire in France.
I know an American guy who has lived and worked out of Paris for ten years. He still has a house in California which is rented out and goes back for a couple of months every year to take care of stuff there. He said American bureaucracy makes things in France seem straightforward! This was only ever supposed to be a few years for him, but he's really unsure about going back now.The other thing, and I don't know this in detail, but my understanding is the French tax system is quite skewed towards employer contributions. They also have hefty personal allowances that apply to the whole family, so your ordinary French working man pays very little tax himself. And other side of it is they have a massively generous social security system, which the people there do value.
Sheepshanks said:
The other thing, and I don't know this in detail, but my understanding is the French tax system is quite skewed towards employer contributions. They also have hefty personal allowances that apply to the whole family, so your ordinary French working man pays very little tax himself. And other side of it is they have a massively generous social security system, which the people there do value.
Employers contribute around 45% of gross salary towards social security, government pension, etc... so yes, quite a bit more than in the UK. Employees then contribute further towards social security to arrive at a net taxable income.In terms of tax, the household is considered as a whole, each person in the household (so long as they are dependents and not a lodger) counts for a number of points, adults are 1 point each, children 0.5 point (up to a certain age).
The overall household's income is added up then divided by the number of points to arrive at a taxable income which is then subject to allowances and percentages just like in the uk (allowances and thresholds are different).
So, a couple with a high earning husband (or wife) and a stay at home spouse with no income pays less tax than the equivalent in the UK (1 salary divided in half, each half subject to allowances and thresholds), it's even better if they have children... Two high earning spouses and no children however would pay more than in the UK.
The social security system is not that much more generous than in the UK in terms of medical care, you have to pay for some medications (not fully reimbursed), and a portion of a doctor's or specialist's appointment fee unless you have private additionnal cover.
It is however much better than the UK in terms of state pension (75% of averaged (or best, can't remember) last ten years salary iirc) and redundancy cover (75% of your salary for two years, after which is drops to not much at all).
Forgot to add that the French aren't shy when it comes to using their medical facilities, it's much easier to get a referral/second opinion/scan/... in France than in the UK. There is more emphasis on prevention than cure alone. This leads to massive overspending but it seems the social security is a bottomless pit here.
Tablets aren't rationed either, so if you need 20 tablets for something but the smallest box is 30, you get (and pay for) 30 and the unused tablets are thrown away !
Tablets aren't rationed either, so if you need 20 tablets for something but the smallest box is 30, you get (and pay for) 30 and the unused tablets are thrown away !
thefrog said:
Forgot to add that the French aren't shy when it comes to using their medical facilities, it's much easier to get a referral/second opinion/scan/... in France than in the UK. There is more emphasis on prevention than cure alone. This leads to massive overspending but it seems the social security is a bottomless pit here.
Tablets aren't rationed either, so if you need 20 tablets for something but the smallest box is 30, you get (and pay for) 30 and the unused tablets are thrown away !
Back started to give me problems beginning of April. X-rays, scan, then consultation with surgeon who confirmed a major hernia, operation at beginning of May and signed off in June. I think the whole lot cost me under £500 including private room etc. after the assurance complementaire kicked in. Parking at the hospital is the grand sum of €1.Tablets aren't rationed either, so if you need 20 tablets for something but the smallest box is 30, you get (and pay for) 30 and the unused tablets are thrown away !
The French health service deserves to use the term “service”, whereas the UK’s should be described as a “system”.
When it comes to transport infrastructure, then France is light years ahead of the UK. While the UK is still planning HS2 & 3, France is upgrading their TGV network. TER regional trains have quality rolling stock and big cities have decent tram systems. Meanwhile the UK is becoming the pot-hole world champions and driving from A to B at a crawl is normal - but there is no realistic public transport alternative for most journeys, outside London.
While I do hate my personal tax burden in France, it is possible to see benefits, that they help pay for.
But I do feel immensely sorry for employers like Driller. I have a friend who works for a bank in Paris, most corporate fraudulent actions come about as employers try to win cash in order to pay their Social Charges. Taxiing enterprises over and over for the temerity of employing staff means that unemployment is way too high. So then taxes need to be even higher, to pay for this massive wastage.
When it comes to transport infrastructure, then France is light years ahead of the UK. While the UK is still planning HS2 & 3, France is upgrading their TGV network. TER regional trains have quality rolling stock and big cities have decent tram systems. Meanwhile the UK is becoming the pot-hole world champions and driving from A to B at a crawl is normal - but there is no realistic public transport alternative for most journeys, outside London.
While I do hate my personal tax burden in France, it is possible to see benefits, that they help pay for.
But I do feel immensely sorry for employers like Driller. I have a friend who works for a bank in Paris, most corporate fraudulent actions come about as employers try to win cash in order to pay their Social Charges. Taxiing enterprises over and over for the temerity of employing staff means that unemployment is way too high. So then taxes need to be even higher, to pay for this massive wastage.
smifffymoto said:
I'm in the UK now,north west,and it seems like no money is spent on public spaces at all.
Where does the money get spent because it certainley isn't on making the place look clean and tidy.
France does not build aircraft carriers that leak, and makes sure that it has aircraft to fly off them when they go into service.Where does the money get spent because it certainley isn't on making the place look clean and tidy.
Every Mairie gets funding to make their village look good and please their community. The UK local authorities spend their cash on child protection issues, which will always win over fixing potholes.
I do think that there is a fair amount of money squandered on schemes in a France that show low potential benefits, but then the landownersare happy to sell, rather than say NOT IN MY BACKYARD.
There are substantial infrastructure projects going on in our closest major town, it's hard to understand why when hardly anybody goes there anymore and new shops last only a few months before closing down and the only shops that seem to last are the two boulangeries, the Tabac, the ecoFrais, the estate agents (there are three of those for some reason) and the cordonnerie (he is well past retirement age and reckons that there is no one else to carry on the business). The town virtually gave up when a brand new Intermarche Super opened up to replace the smallish local one. Our local commune has a brand new fountain, seating area and new 30km/h road scheme where the footpath and road through are one of the same. The health service is great and very efficient, I'm having a minor op on 3rd January to remove a cyst and the surgeon asked me when I wanted it done which could have been the same week as my consultation but we were going away. All the local "C" roads are resurfaced every 3 years and the verges mown/cut every month.
The communes do take pride in their environment and work hard to maintain them, yes, we do pay for it indirectly but I think it's worth the money and it's going to be what I miss when we move away next year and not at all looking forward to going back to the UK, we've just spent a week at out daughters there and found it a very depressing experience with just how things have deteriorated since we left in 2004.
The communes do take pride in their environment and work hard to maintain them, yes, we do pay for it indirectly but I think it's worth the money and it's going to be what I miss when we move away next year and not at all looking forward to going back to the UK, we've just spent a week at out daughters there and found it a very depressing experience with just how things have deteriorated since we left in 2004.
Perik Omo said:
There are substantial infrastructure projects going on in our closest major town, it's hard to understand why when hardly anybody goes there anymore and new shops last only a few months before closing down and the only shops that seem to last are the two boulangeries, the Tabac, the ecoFrais, the estate agents (there are three of those for some reason) and the cordonnerie (he is well past retirement age and reckons that there is no one else to carry on the business). The town virtually gave up when a brand new Intermarche Super opened up to replace the smallish local one. Our local commune has a brand new fountain, seating area and new 30km/h road scheme where the footpath and road through are one of the same. The health service is great and very efficient, I'm having a minor op on 3rd January to remove a cyst and the surgeon asked me when I wanted it done which could have been the same week as my consultation but we were going away. All the local "C" roads are resurfaced every 3 years and the verges mown/cut every month.
The communes do take pride in their environment and work hard to maintain them, yes, we do pay for it indirectly but I think it's worth the money and it's going to be what I miss when we move away next year and not at all looking forward to going back to the UK, we've just spent a week at out daughters there and found it a very depressing experience with just how things have deteriorated since we left in 2004.
I thought a lot of funding for that came from taxe d'habitation, in which case if it is being reduced/ removed, will the local authorities continue to have as much to play with..?The communes do take pride in their environment and work hard to maintain them, yes, we do pay for it indirectly but I think it's worth the money and it's going to be what I miss when we move away next year and not at all looking forward to going back to the UK, we've just spent a week at out daughters there and found it a very depressing experience with just how things have deteriorated since we left in 2004.
http://www.leparisien.fr/politique/taxe-d-habitati...
Croutons said:
I thought a lot of funding for that came from taxe d'habitation, in which case if it is being reduced/ removed, will the local authorities continue to have as much to play with..?
http://www.leparisien.fr/politique/taxe-d-habitati...
Yes, the sports clubs are screaming, the village Xmas decorations were cancelled, and so many parts of the fabric of what is considered "normal life" are being cut. Central funding has dried up. The roads are being relaid with inferior quality chippings, most of which has come unstuck in three months and has had to be done again, and I have even seen potholes for the first time, although they were quickly repaired it has to be said. But diesel went up 4 cents today "because it is bad for our health".http://www.leparisien.fr/politique/taxe-d-habitati...
Perik Omo said:
<Snip> it's going to be what I miss when we move away next year and not at all looking forward to going back to the UK, we've just spent a week at out daughters there and found it a very depressing experience with just how things have deteriorated since we left in 2004.
Out of interest, what did you think the big difference are now in the UK, and are the things you thought that were bad/ negative better in FR? rdjohn said:
France does not build aircraft carriers that leak, and makes sure that it has aircraft to fly off them when they go into service.
Hmmhttp://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/frances-...
Not entirely unalloyed good news.
psi310398 said:
rdjohn said:
France does not build aircraft carriers that leak, and makes sure that it has aircraft to fly off them when they go into service.
Hmmhttp://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/frances-...
Not entirely unalloyed good news.
Croutons said:
Out of interest, what did you think the big difference are now in the UK, and are the things you thought that were bad/ negative better in FR?
Hadn't been back for a while and found the traffic a complete pain, no matter what time of day you went out there would be some sort of traffic jam or just heavy traffic (this was N. Herts, South and Mid-Beds). The town centre of he town we used to live in was just scruffy and run down even though millions were spent upgrading it 10 years ago, every other shop seemed to be a coffee shop or charity shop and apparently there are 23 places you can get a coffee in a town centre that has just four streets.The biggest difference I suppose is the sheer number of people around all the time, it just seems so crowded everywhere and where we live in France there is only one permanent neighbour and a couple from La Rochelle who come and stay from April to December, so, if you like peace and quiet then you can live in splendid isolation, from our bedroom and lounge we have uninterrupted countryside views which is something we just could not get in the UK without being extremely wealthy.
I just don't know how I'm going to handle it when we get back there as I just have all these negative feelings about it. It looks like this might happen July/August time as we have a buyer lined up but nothing will be certain until 30th April which is when the option to buy runs out.
What's better in the UK, well, I suppose it's easier to get things done and I won't miss some of the stupid bureaucracy that you have to contend with but will greatly miss the superb health service that we have here, it's easy to get a doctors appointment and to see a specialist within days if needed and when I've needed it admission to hospital for surgery happens within a few days or weeks and is a case of "when do you want it done?" rather than "we can schedule your op for next year if you're lucky" and getting older it's a great concern of mine.
I would agree entirely with these sentiments. Another thing that seems completely lacking in the UK is a sense of community. In France we stop and talk with our neighbours whenever we meet.
In England, everyone seems to despise their neighbour, escpecially if they take their parking space, or even park outside their neighbours house, albeit on a public road.
Also people sat staring at their phones rather than talking with their partner, while letting their kids run amok in a public place.
I am in Spain at the moment and likewise, people are far more cordial with complete strangers. In the UK, strangers are only viewed with suspicion.
In England, everyone seems to despise their neighbour, escpecially if they take their parking space, or even park outside their neighbours house, albeit on a public road.
Also people sat staring at their phones rather than talking with their partner, while letting their kids run amok in a public place.
I am in Spain at the moment and likewise, people are far more cordial with complete strangers. In the UK, strangers are only viewed with suspicion.
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