18 Volt Cranking Circuit Diagram Here
Discussion
Steve_D said:
I can't claim to know much about electrics but you may get a better response from those that do if you were to describe what you plan to use this circuit for and why you think it is required.
As a general observation from a TVR standpoint I can't see why it would be required, it would add considerable weight and cost a pretty penny.
Steve
Exactly.As a general observation from a TVR standpoint I can't see why it would be required, it would add considerable weight and cost a pretty penny.
Steve
O/p what problem are you trying to solve and on what car?
eliot said:
Steve_D said:
I can't claim to know much about electrics but you may get a better response from those that do if you were to describe what you plan to use this circuit for and why you think it is required.
As a general observation from a TVR standpoint I can't see why it would be required, it would add considerable weight and cost a pretty penny.
Steve
Exactly.As a general observation from a TVR standpoint I can't see why it would be required, it would add considerable weight and cost a pretty penny.
Steve
O/p what problem are you trying to solve and on what car?
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Max_Torque said:
I know TVR owners like to mess around and modify their cars, but in this case i can;t see the point?
If your car doesn't start with a normal 12v battery and starter, the engine's f**ked. Fix the engine, don't modify the car to try to mask a failure!
All this extra wiring and contactors is likely to be a) highly unreliable and b) a massive fire risk when, inevitably, one relay gets a bit sticky, or contact welds on.....
Can you explain why you need 18V to start the engine??
This all started with me looking at starting circuits that are already in use but could be improved, I appreciate that many engines shouldn't need any extra help, this set-up is for one off modified engines with high compression and/or slow cranking problems caused by design not faults
You mention "fire risk" and I do agree that this is a big problem, I will need to take a closer look into the switching side of this and how to monitor the solenoids pulling in and dropping out so as to make them failsafe or possibly add a safety fuse
Thank you for your post
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Due to some TVR enthusiasts building high performance engines with high compression and possible slow cranking problems I thought I would post my diagram here, most uprated cranking circuits are 24 Volt and I reckon this voltage is damaging starter motors and solenoids
phillpot said:
Penelope Stopit said:
The chances are that I am well off the mark here, I get an inkling that you don't like me
It's not that I dislike you Penny, I don't even know you. It's more a matter of respect. Rather than all your theoretical "brain waves", if you could come on here with just one tried and tested solution for a known issue that you had come up with and fitted to your car then myself (and possible one or two others) may take interest.The problem was.......
I did this........
No issues since
The tongue-in-cheek figure of speech is used to imply that a statement or other production is humorously or otherwise not seriously intended, and it should not be taken at face value.
The phrase was originally meant to express contempt. By 1842, however, the phrase had acquired its contemporary meaning, indicating that a statement was not meant to be taken seriously
Penelope said:
...most uprated cranking circuits are 24 Volt and I reckon this voltage is damaging starter motors and solenoids
I don't think this is the case. We never burnt one out. Best ask the current crop of rally boyos if they still do it.If it is a real concern to you, why not substitute a 6v battery for the !2v 'starter battery' in magpies' diagram a few posts above?
TwinKam said:
Penelope said:
...most uprated cranking circuits are 24 Volt and I reckon this voltage is damaging starter motors and solenoids
I don't think this is the case. We never burnt one out. Best ask the current crop of rally boyos if they still do it.If it is a real concern to you, why not substitute a 6v battery for the !2v 'starter battery' in magpies' diagram a few posts above?
I am aware of 24 volt starting on Ford Escort BDA's, Ford and other rally teams were not concerned about hammering the starter motors, rally cars are not stopping and starting day in/day out
Thanks for your suggestion of modifying Magpies diagram but it isn't as easy as that otherwise I would have done it, I have used 6 Volt batteries because the switching can be arranged to charge the battery that is being used to up the voltage to 18 Volts and as I have already mentioned, 18 Volts is plenty and the starter doesn't get hammered
24 Volts starting is easy and this is why it is often used but it does hammer a 12 volt starter, see the below series parallel solenoid
Taken from here http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Solenoid-SERIES-PARALL...
These will supply 24 Volts to a 24 Volt starter yet hammer a 12 Volts starter
This is all about engines/starter motors in everyday use
Thank you for your input
Penelope Stopit
If you don't want to take the advice contributed here, why did you ask? Did you want / expect an echo chamber and cyber pats on the back, telling you how much of a good boy you are?
If 24v through a 12v starter frightens you, get some 24v HGV electrical components, and manufacture a bracket to fit a 24v starter. A truck starter is MORE than man enough for almost any modified engine.
Or you could just purchase a big, badass starter that the Americans use for their huge modified V8s or boat engines....
But please, don't get a sad on when folks tell you having 4 (FOUR!!) 12v batteries, extra relays and a few more metres of high current cable is a bad idea.
And I don't think you've explicitly explained what it's for. If you want to keep it all secret like a 007 project, thats fine..... but you can't expect the best advice if we don't know what application you intend to use it for.
Edit; there's a huge, huge wealth of knowledge on PH boards. There's experts for a lot of stuff you're asking about. Take their advice, or don't. Your choice and all, but there's a reason the same advice is touted over and over...
If you don't want to take the advice contributed here, why did you ask? Did you want / expect an echo chamber and cyber pats on the back, telling you how much of a good boy you are?
If 24v through a 12v starter frightens you, get some 24v HGV electrical components, and manufacture a bracket to fit a 24v starter. A truck starter is MORE than man enough for almost any modified engine.
Or you could just purchase a big, badass starter that the Americans use for their huge modified V8s or boat engines....
But please, don't get a sad on when folks tell you having 4 (FOUR!!) 12v batteries, extra relays and a few more metres of high current cable is a bad idea.
And I don't think you've explicitly explained what it's for. If you want to keep it all secret like a 007 project, thats fine..... but you can't expect the best advice if we don't know what application you intend to use it for.
Edit; there's a huge, huge wealth of knowledge on PH boards. There's experts for a lot of stuff you're asking about. Take their advice, or don't. Your choice and all, but there's a reason the same advice is touted over and over...
Edited by TobyLerone on Monday 17th July 20:57
Penelope Stopit said:
Penelope Stopit (or whoever you are), If you want a serious starter system you need to forget batteries altogether and take a leaf out of Kenworth's book....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t6zdQKsYs4
I was working for the NZ Forestry Corporation in Rotorua in the 90's when I first came across Kenworth Airstart, and I can tell you it made me properly jump out of my skin when it spun up
Truth is my TVR needs none of this, with my upgraded starter cable and earth return, Odyssey PC1500 850cca AGM battery, and £62.00 Global Power Disco 1 V8 starter motor my Chimaera engine spins up like you'd never believe.
That 18v starter circuit looks like a certain keen hobbyist has got way too much time on his hands solving problems that just don't exist
Retirement must be sooooo dull
ChimpOnGas said:
Penelope Stopit said:
Penelope Stopit (or whoever you are), If you want a serious starter system you need to forget batteries altogether and take a leaf out of Kenworth's book....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t6zdQKsYs4
I was working for the NZ Forestry Corporation in Rotorua in the 90's when I first came across Kenworth Airstart, and I can tell you it made me properly jump out of my skin when it spun up
Truth is my TVR needs none of this, with my upgraded starter cable and earth return, Odyssey PC1500 850cca AGM battery, and £62.00 Global Power Disco 1 V8 starter motor my Chimaera engine spins up like you'd never believe.
That 18v starter circuit looks like a certain keen hobbyist has got way too much time on his hands solving problems that just don't exist
Retirement must be sooooo dull
I have not and never will have anything to post in your direction in the future unless it suits me to, being what you are, your above comments are to be expected
PS I never use the report button and never will do
Penelope Stopit said:
ChimpOnGas said:
Penelope Stopit said:
Penelope Stopit (or whoever you are), If you want a serious starter system you need to forget batteries altogether and take a leaf out of Kenworth's book....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t6zdQKsYs4
I was working for the NZ Forestry Corporation in Rotorua in the 90's when I first came across Kenworth Airstart, and I can tell you it made me properly jump out of my skin when it spun up
Truth is my TVR needs none of this, with my upgraded starter cable and earth return, Odyssey PC1500 850cca AGM battery, and £62.00 Global Power Disco 1 V8 starter motor my Chimaera engine spins up like you'd never believe.
That 18v starter circuit looks like a certain keen hobbyist has got way too much time on his hands solving problems that just don't exist
Retirement must be sooooo dull
I have not and never will have anything to post in your direction in the future unless it suits me to, being what you are, your above comments are to be expected
PS I never use the report button and never will do
Even thought it appears likely you've never even sat in a TVR let alone owned one, no doubt you'll be equally free with help when you're besieged with people wanting to give their TVR 18v starting
ChimpOnGas said:
Penelope Stopit said:
ChimpOnGas said:
Penelope Stopit said:
Penelope Stopit (or whoever you are), If you want a serious starter system you need to forget batteries altogether and take a leaf out of Kenworth's book....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t6zdQKsYs4
I was working for the NZ Forestry Corporation in Rotorua in the 90's when I first came across Kenworth Airstart, and I can tell you it made me properly jump out of my skin when it spun up
Truth is my TVR needs none of this, with my upgraded starter cable and earth return, Odyssey PC1500 850cca AGM battery, and £62.00 Global Power Disco 1 V8 starter motor my Chimaera engine spins up like you'd never believe.
That 18v starter circuit looks like a certain keen hobbyist has got way too much time on his hands solving problems that just don't exist
Retirement must be sooooo dull
I have not and never will have anything to post in your direction in the future unless it suits me to, being what you are, your above comments are to be expected
PS I never use the report button and never will do
Even thought it appears likely you've never even sat in a TVR let alone owned one, no doubt you'll be equally free with help when you're besieged with people wanting to give their TVR 18v starting
Hi Penelope
Please do not take this the wrong way, it is not meant to slight your good name, nor is it an effort to start an internet pissing contest.
I have seen two types of posts from yourself; one assisting someone with a general electrical question, answered in a knowledgeable way for which the OP's have been grateful. The other postings are, how shall we say it? They have the appearance of a solution looking for a problem. I think this posting falls into the latter category. I'm sure it would be better received elsewhere, perhaps on a kit car or rally forum where home brew vehicles are the order of the day.
You need to understand your audience here. These are a bunch of great guys that need the occasional assistance with sorting niggling electrical issues on a car that, even as an owner, I will admit does not have the best electrics in the world. TVR's suffer from a case of "that'll do." The electrical circuits are nice and simple, just not up to the job once heat, age and corrosion start to come into play. Solutions required here amount to advising on beefing up connectors and wiring, checking for voltage drops and corrosion, not about adding complexity through the addition of multi-relay circuits (I think your record was 10) that make the car sound like a night out at a Spanish tapas bar whenever something is switched on.
On my own car I am always on the look out for wiring past its best or connectors looking a bit manky. Having seen many TVR's I know a lot of owners are blind to these issues, preferring to wash and wax the car or focus on mechanical problems or performance improvements. We all have our comfort zones.
You clearly want to help, which is great, but as Phillpot said above, tell us about an issue you had on your own car and what you have done to solve it.
These forum needs knowledgable people (of which there are numerous in many areas) but with TVR's we should stick to the KISS principle.
Hope I haven't caused offence
Please do not take this the wrong way, it is not meant to slight your good name, nor is it an effort to start an internet pissing contest.
I have seen two types of posts from yourself; one assisting someone with a general electrical question, answered in a knowledgeable way for which the OP's have been grateful. The other postings are, how shall we say it? They have the appearance of a solution looking for a problem. I think this posting falls into the latter category. I'm sure it would be better received elsewhere, perhaps on a kit car or rally forum where home brew vehicles are the order of the day.
You need to understand your audience here. These are a bunch of great guys that need the occasional assistance with sorting niggling electrical issues on a car that, even as an owner, I will admit does not have the best electrics in the world. TVR's suffer from a case of "that'll do." The electrical circuits are nice and simple, just not up to the job once heat, age and corrosion start to come into play. Solutions required here amount to advising on beefing up connectors and wiring, checking for voltage drops and corrosion, not about adding complexity through the addition of multi-relay circuits (I think your record was 10) that make the car sound like a night out at a Spanish tapas bar whenever something is switched on.
On my own car I am always on the look out for wiring past its best or connectors looking a bit manky. Having seen many TVR's I know a lot of owners are blind to these issues, preferring to wash and wax the car or focus on mechanical problems or performance improvements. We all have our comfort zones.You clearly want to help, which is great, but as Phillpot said above, tell us about an issue you had on your own car and what you have done to solve it.
These forum needs knowledgable people (of which there are numerous in many areas) but with TVR's we should stick to the KISS principle.
Hope I haven't caused offence
TwinKam said:
I think it needs more solenoids, lots more solenoids. And a flux capacitor. Probably.
Have you considered the shotgun cartridge method of starting. If it was good enough for Supermarine, Massey Furguson...
Or, TwinKam, how about a real starter using Avpin? All this talk of the risk of fire and all that. No need to wait for the rubber fuel pipes to perish and cause a fire Have you considered the shotgun cartridge method of starting. If it was good enough for Supermarine, Massey Furguson...
Maybe tis time this thread was closed. It doesn't seem to be much more than a pillyoring post now.
Penelope Stopit said:
I have now finished this circuit that will give 18 Volts to the starter motor when cranking from the ignition switch, included in this circuit are 4 relays that will ensure that none of the batteries can short circuit and cause a fire should any one of the 4 solenoids contacts weld closed , many thanks to Max_Torque for pointing out the safety issues with my original diagram, I have also added a 5th relay to protect the starter motor should there be a failure and a permanent 18 Volts is supplied to the starter and crank terminal. The solenoids used all have a third contact that is normally used for a 12 Volt supply to a ballast resistor circuit, I have utilised this third contact to operate the safety relays
I will leave my original post and diagram here below. Thank you to those that gave good input
Penelope Stopit - you are properly bonkers.I will leave my original post and diagram here below. Thank you to those that gave good input
So now you've finalised the design (it is astonishing to me that this is the perfected circuit but I'll cast that aside for a minute), what is it for? What are you trying to start?
And why do you consider this to be a better, neater, safer and more reliable solution to your 'hard starting' issues (I assume) than a meaty starter motor would be?
I'm genuinely curious, by the way. I can't see how adding a whole host of relays and solenoids, wiring and batteries can be a better solution than a big battery and a high torque starter... unless this is a wind up.
Chuckle....
The last thing I 24 volt'd was my totally shagged MK1 transit which had a V4 Essex that I had to run on gear box oil to stop, some, of the smoke. It would fire on two and bounce around for a minute then on three then all four and off we went oil light flickering when hot at idle. I used to 24 volt the whole thing, coil as well, as long as the lights were off and someone held the key it was fine.... I was skint, like really skint.
WHY on earth would anyone do this to a TVR?
J
The last thing I 24 volt'd was my totally shagged MK1 transit which had a V4 Essex that I had to run on gear box oil to stop, some, of the smoke. It would fire on two and bounce around for a minute then on three then all four and off we went oil light flickering when hot at idle. I used to 24 volt the whole thing, coil as well, as long as the lights were off and someone held the key it was fine.... I was skint, like really skint.
WHY on earth would anyone do this to a TVR?
J
Sagi Badger said:
Chuckle....
The last thing I 24 volt'd was my totally shagged MK1 transit which had a V4 Essex that I had to run on gear box oil to stop, some, of the smoke. It would fire on two and bounce around for a minute then on three then all four and off we went oil light flickering when hot at idle. I used to 24 volt the whole thing, coil as well, as long as the lights were off and someone held the key it was fine.... I was skint, like really skint.
WHY on earth would anyone do this to a TVR?
J
Takes one back, so funny The last thing I 24 volt'd was my totally shagged MK1 transit which had a V4 Essex that I had to run on gear box oil to stop, some, of the smoke. It would fire on two and bounce around for a minute then on three then all four and off we went oil light flickering when hot at idle. I used to 24 volt the whole thing, coil as well, as long as the lights were off and someone held the key it was fine.... I was skint, like really skint.
WHY on earth would anyone do this to a TVR?
J
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