New TVR still under wraps! (Vol. 2)
Discussion
bullittmcqueen said:
As it was suggested a few posts above again: having remade one of the old cars would not have made ANY difference to their current situation as they would have had to complete the exact same development and engineering stages they just completed.
This is not the case because the major expense was paying GMD's bill! Which i'm led to believe was somewhat larger than NewCo had budgetted for, and was what resulted in the split away from GMD after the main engineering effort was done, but leaving a lot of details unfinished.Basing a new body on the old chassis would have been hugely cheaper, very much a few men in a shed type activity. Unfortunately, that didn't fit with the ridiculous aspirations of NewCo, who were sure they were going to build the best sports car in the world.............
Max_Torque said:
This is not the case because the major expense was paying GMD's bill! Which i'm led to believe was somewhat larger than NewCo had budgetted for, and was what resulted in the split away from GMD after the main engineering effort was done, but leaving a lot of details unfinished.
Basing a new body on the old chassis would have been hugely cheaper, very much a few men in a shed type activity. Unfortunately, that didn't fit with the ridiculous aspirations of NewCo, who were sure they were going to build the best sports car in the world.............
I'm pretty sure the old chassis would not meet many of todays type approval requirements, not even the relaxed ones of ESSTA. If that was the case, you'd see lots of brandnew retro fibreglass cars on steel-frames rolling out of factories. You'd never get a Sagaris, that just rolled out of factory today, type-approved. And that's my point. Even if TVR had chosen to go down that route, they would still have had to go through the entire engineering stage even if it looked like a Sagaris afterwards. Hence, they'd be in no other situation than they are today. Granted, they might have saved some time for the exterior car design.Basing a new body on the old chassis would have been hugely cheaper, very much a few men in a shed type activity. Unfortunately, that didn't fit with the ridiculous aspirations of NewCo, who were sure they were going to build the best sports car in the world.............
bullittmcqueen said:
I'm pretty sure the old chassis would not meet many of todays type approval requirements, not even the relaxed ones of ESSTA. If that was the case, you'd see lots of brandnew retro fibreglass cars on steel-frames rolling out of factories. You'd never get a Sagaris, that just rolled out of factory today, type-approved. And that's my point. Even if TVR had chosen to go down that route, they would still have had to go through the entire engineering stage even if it looked like a Sagaris afterwards. Hence, they'd be in no other situation than they are today. Granted, they might have saved some time for the exterior car design.
sorry to er, disagree! ;-)The reason you don't see lots of fibreglass steel framed cars these days is simply because not many people want to pay large sums of moneys for crap cars! A fibreglass body on frame type design is a nightmare of fit and finish, impossible to maintain any level of quality on, and extremely intensive labour wise to build.
But there is nothing fundamentally within limited series type approval that prevents it.
Max_Torque said:
bullittmcqueen said:
I'm pretty sure the old chassis would not meet many of todays type approval requirements, not even the relaxed ones of ESSTA. If that was the case, you'd see lots of brandnew retro fibreglass cars on steel-frames rolling out of factories. You'd never get a Sagaris, that just rolled out of factory today, type-approved. And that's my point. Even if TVR had chosen to go down that route, they would still have had to go through the entire engineering stage even if it looked like a Sagaris afterwards. Hence, they'd be in no other situation than they are today. Granted, they might have saved some time for the exterior car design.
sorry to er, disagree! ;-)The reason you don't see lots of fibreglass steel framed cars these days is simply because not many people want to pay large sums of moneys for crap cars! A fibreglass body on frame type design is a nightmare of fit and finish, impossible to maintain any level of quality on, and extremely intensive labour wise to build.
But there is nothing fundamentally within limited series type approval that prevents it.
If TVR had decided to start building a 'modern' Sag, could they have done it without adding ABS and airbags? In other words, building an exact same car as was produced nearly 20 years ago except for the engine, replacing it with the Coyote which is current emissions compliant. If this is the case then maybe this is something they could fall back on if money eventually proves to be their undoing.
N7GTX said:
Max_Torque said:
bullittmcqueen said:
I'm pretty sure the old chassis would not meet many of todays type approval requirements, not even the relaxed ones of ESSTA. If that was the case, you'd see lots of brandnew retro fibreglass cars on steel-frames rolling out of factories. You'd never get a Sagaris, that just rolled out of factory today, type-approved. And that's my point. Even if TVR had chosen to go down that route, they would still have had to go through the entire engineering stage even if it looked like a Sagaris afterwards. Hence, they'd be in no other situation than they are today. Granted, they might have saved some time for the exterior car design.
sorry to er, disagree! ;-)The reason you don't see lots of fibreglass steel framed cars these days is simply because not many people want to pay large sums of moneys for crap cars! A fibreglass body on frame type design is a nightmare of fit and finish, impossible to maintain any level of quality on, and extremely intensive labour wise to build.
But there is nothing fundamentally within limited series type approval that prevents it.
If TVR had decided to start building a 'modern' Sag, could they have done it without adding ABS and airbags? In other words, building an exact same car as was produced nearly 20 years ago except for the engine, replacing it with the Coyote which is current emissions compliant. If this is the case then maybe this is something they could fall back on if money eventually proves to be their undoing.
The biggest issue was simply that all that was "below" NewCo. They just wanted to play with the big boys..........
Max_Torque said:
N7GTX said:
Max_Torque said:
bullittmcqueen said:
I'm pretty sure the old chassis would not meet many of todays type approval requirements, not even the relaxed ones of ESSTA. If that was the case, you'd see lots of brandnew retro fibreglass cars on steel-frames rolling out of factories. You'd never get a Sagaris, that just rolled out of factory today, type-approved. And that's my point. Even if TVR had chosen to go down that route, they would still have had to go through the entire engineering stage even if it looked like a Sagaris afterwards. Hence, they'd be in no other situation than they are today. Granted, they might have saved some time for the exterior car design.
sorry to er, disagree! ;-)The reason you don't see lots of fibreglass steel framed cars these days is simply because not many people want to pay large sums of moneys for crap cars! A fibreglass body on frame type design is a nightmare of fit and finish, impossible to maintain any level of quality on, and extremely intensive labour wise to build.
But there is nothing fundamentally within limited series type approval that prevents it.
If TVR had decided to start building a 'modern' Sag, could they have done it without adding ABS and airbags? In other words, building an exact same car as was produced nearly 20 years ago except for the engine, replacing it with the Coyote which is current emissions compliant. If this is the case then maybe this is something they could fall back on if money eventually proves to be their undoing.
The biggest issue was simply that all that was "below" NewCo. They just wanted to play with the big boys..........
There are some relaxations for ESSTA, which is the European Small Series Type Approval which allows you to sell 1000 Cars per type per year in all of the EU. But there are LOTS of regulations that simply have to be met. I have done rather extensive research on this a while ago and i have never found evidence for that 600 number. And while ESSTA lets you evade some crash-testing and other stuff, security things like ABS, ergonomics, pedestrian safety etc. are mandatory.
I simply cannot believe that fibreglass-steelframe death-sled like a Sagaris would make today's cut, honestly. I also don't buy the economic argument. The cobra-scene is going to major pains getting 50 year old rusted steel frames back to snuff only to have an initial admission date of 1970 to avoid exactly those regulations you say don't apply. People are paying 100k for old Sagarises so your argument they wouldn't pay 65k for a newly produced one (even by old standards with shoddy fibreglass and all the problems you mention) does not seem convincing (heck, i would buy one today !).
How many people are buying a Sagaris? There are 5 advertised for sale on PH and none of them are £100K. People didn't buy them in sufficient volumes back in 2006, that is why they went bust. What has suddenly changed 15 years on?
You could not make any money selling them at a price that people would be prepared to pay. There would be the factory set up costs, and the production line was very labour intensive. They were £50K new in 2005.
You could not make any money selling them at a price that people would be prepared to pay. There would be the factory set up costs, and the production line was very labour intensive. They were £50K new in 2005.
LucyP said:
How many people are buying a Sagaris? There are 5 advertised for sale on PH and none of them are £100K. People didn't buy them in sufficient volumes back in 2006, that is why they went bust. What has suddenly changed 15 years on?
You could not make any money selling them at a price that people would be prepared to pay. There would be the factory set up costs, and the production line was very labour intensive. They were £50K new in 2005.
Agreed. I used the 100k quote to illustrate my point, i think there was one ad asking for it even in here. I know that prices for Cobras in Germany have gone up massively in recent times.You could not make any money selling them at a price that people would be prepared to pay. There would be the factory set up costs, and the production line was very labour intensive. They were £50K new in 2005.
Just to line out the original argument:
It was said that TVR are in an economically difficult situation because of over-engineering and under-designing and that they should have just remade one of the old classics with ancient tooling in a shed and they'd be shipping in the money at this very moment already.
To which my reply was: Nope. Type approving an ancient-tech Sagaris today is not possible, major overhaul would have been in the cards, hence all (most) of the engineering part would have been the same. Basically same effort, same cost, same problems, etc. . Since they are not yet selling cars, design doesn't even have to be included in the equation yet, because a this point, they wouldn't be selling Sagarises either.
Max_Torque said:
The problem is the volumes! If NewCo had a sensible volume aspiration then they could fall with the most lenient of the "limited volume" rules and these pretty much anything goes (hence AML et-al re-releasing continuation series of things like DB5's and the like) However, that would limit TVR to a something under 600 cars a year, and of course, only be any use to a UK (or then EU) market place. Rules allow volumes up to around 2k cars a year with very relaxed regs (compared to full EV homologation vehicles) and frankly, i just don't know how many people would want to spend something greater than £65k on a car without even ABS or any airbags. Cars that are only about performance and driver engagement (Caterhams, atoms etc) are really the only cars that can get away with zero concesions to modern motoring, and those are very low volume.
The biggest issue was simply that all that was "below" NewCo. They just wanted to play with the big boys..........
Thank you for your inputThe biggest issue was simply that all that was "below" NewCo. They just wanted to play with the big boys..........
Please post a link to the regulations, need to read through them
I think the ‘start in a barn’ idea was (probably quite rightly) excluded from the early plan due to TVR aiming at a level at least where old TVR were at their heyday, and to be a serious contender in the market. IMO it was all geared up on the design side and reveal side then it fell flat on its face with comms and marketing. No doubt when the whole sorry-arsed saga is recounted in the anals of history it will be lack of finance that will be cited but lack of comms has been the reality of the day to day decline into oblivion.
Those pesky Bolivians.
Those pesky Bolivians.
baconsarney said:
AS Motorsport, just down the road from me. All on an old farm site, no big production facility in Wales. Also has a very old roof. And a great team who have passion, and skill.
A lot of people could learn a lesson or two from the folk there.
This is the model that would not work for TVR. Cars are registered on a per-car basis. There is talk of a "donor car", which is exactly the model i described earlier. By having a donor car and this obviously being some sort of rebuild (having nothing to do with the original car) they evade the current regulation. It's the only way you can get away with making 30 year old tech road legal. A lot of people could learn a lesson or two from the folk there.
This model can never scale. Exports to other countries are basically impossible. Also, there are future road-legality issues looming (at least here in Germany for the Cobras, this one here could never be made road-legal at all. ).
Don't get me woring: i think it's great that companies like this exist and that it is still possible to build cars like this and i am convinced that they are producing high quality products. Unfortunately, increased regulations and policies over the past 20 years have turned this working model into a niche for enthusiast builders as well as enthusiast buyers. And it's likely to get smaller still.
Edited by bullittmcqueen on Thursday 6th May 10:03
There is no money in that business model, unless you charge an insane price that no one will be prepared to pay. Look at Eagle with Jaguars or the Ian Callum Mark 2 or Aston Martin. The price is a donor car + £extortionate. You could buy any new Ferrari or McLaren and save a lot of money.
The Callum Mark 2 Jaguar was £300k approx. and when Autocar wrote about it, no one had yet been sufficiently interested to pay a deposit. The Callum AM Vanquish was £550k. The Eagle "factory reborn" E-types are all about £300k. They have quite a few which are unsold at present.
A basic Caterham 7 is £27,500 and you probably have to build it yourself. The top model is over £50K.
The Callum Mark 2 Jaguar was £300k approx. and when Autocar wrote about it, no one had yet been sufficiently interested to pay a deposit. The Callum AM Vanquish was £550k. The Eagle "factory reborn" E-types are all about £300k. They have quite a few which are unsold at present.
A basic Caterham 7 is £27,500 and you probably have to build it yourself. The top model is over £50K.
This Type Approval is very confusing. If I've read it right then this is a brief summary and I guess TVR fit into the second category i.e. up to 1500 per year.
Whole vehicle type approval (WVTA) - unlimited for sale in the UK and EU
EC Small Series Type Approval (SSTA) - 1,500 units per year - "Some manufacturers of specialist cars who find some elements of the full type approval specifications too costly may benefit from using the Small Series (1500) scheme which allows production of 1500 vehicles per type"
National small series (NSSTA) - modest numbers, UK only, 250 units per year
https://www.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/ve...
Last update 9/2/2021
Whole vehicle type approval (WVTA) - unlimited for sale in the UK and EU
EC Small Series Type Approval (SSTA) - 1,500 units per year - "Some manufacturers of specialist cars who find some elements of the full type approval specifications too costly may benefit from using the Small Series (1500) scheme which allows production of 1500 vehicles per type"
National small series (NSSTA) - modest numbers, UK only, 250 units per year
https://www.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/ve...
Last update 9/2/2021
N7GTX said:
This Type Approval is very confusing. If I've read it right then this is a brief summary and I guess TVR fit into the second category i.e. up to 1500 per year.
Whole vehicle type approval (WVTA) - unlimited for sale in the UK and EU
EC Small Series Type Approval (SSTA) - 1,500 units per year - "Some manufacturers of specialist cars who find some elements of the full type approval specifications too costly may benefit from using the Small Series (1500) scheme which allows production of 1500 vehicles per type"
National small series (NSSTA) - modest numbers, UK only, 250 units per year
https://www.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/ve...
Last update 9/2/2021
You're correct. 1500 is the number per type per year in the whole of the EU. My aging memory failed me. Whole vehicle type approval (WVTA) - unlimited for sale in the UK and EU
EC Small Series Type Approval (SSTA) - 1,500 units per year - "Some manufacturers of specialist cars who find some elements of the full type approval specifications too costly may benefit from using the Small Series (1500) scheme which allows production of 1500 vehicles per type"
National small series (NSSTA) - modest numbers, UK only, 250 units per year
https://www.vehicle-certification-agency.gov.uk/ve...
Last update 9/2/2021
Still, this is the only plausible way forward. Unfortunately, the clouds over the type-approval sky for IC-cars have darkened considerably in the past two years and the window is closing fast.
ps:
Actually, there evtl. has been a change with regards to that number. Just googling for 2 seconds and came up with this. I knew i had read "1000" before. Anyway, 1000 or 1500 does not materially change the situation.
... The EC SSTA allows access to the EU marketplace for vehicles sold in small quantities (up to 1,000 EU registrations per annum) to meet different technical and administrative requirements and is particularly useful for low volume manufacturers such as Caterham, Morgan and Radical. ...
Edit:
Also, it's not impossible to get the approval. To my knowledge, these things here are type approved:
https://www.donkervoort.com/en/cars/donkervoort-d8...
https://www.coordsport.com/pan-european-homologati...
Edited by bullittmcqueen on Thursday 6th May 16:05
Edited by bullittmcqueen on Thursday 6th May 16:07
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