New TVR still under wraps! (Vol. 3)
Discussion
LucyP said:
Old fashioned, heavy, expensive, slow. It's just an expensive Jaguar XK. The F-Type is miles better and a Porsche is miles better than an F-Type.
I’ve owned an F-Type V8S, F-Type R, XKR, V8 Vantage (plus 3 modern TVR’s) and have driven every modern Porsche from a base 718 to a Taycan Turbo S. They’re all different. I’ll keep my Vantage thanks.
What do you drive?
LucyP said:
But the Vantage is an other old car that whose time is in the past. It wasn't even a sports car back in it's day. It was a heavy GT car, that is very old fashioned now. Like a TVR it was a bitsa car - engine from a Jaguar, handbrake from an XJS, switches from a Ford Fiesta, sat nav from a Volvo.
You forgot to say you think it is ugly as well.
Les might like it though - remember that frought battle in the last few laps of Le Mans in 2017.
The Vantage won. He likes Le Mans winners.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GoY4AwDfCU
Assuming that Les doesn't get to the point of producing TVRs, is he likely to keep the rights to the name and the assets, or sell up?
I'd love to see someone produce a new Tam, 350, Sag or Tuscan II.
Heck I'd even struggle not to buy a new Chim, Griff, 350i or Taimar / 3000M if they were being made by a specialist company to order.
I'd love to see someone produce a new Tam, 350, Sag or Tuscan II.
Heck I'd even struggle not to buy a new Chim, Griff, 350i or Taimar / 3000M if they were being made by a specialist company to order.
rfisher said:
Assuming that Les doesn't get to the point of producing TVRs, is he likely to keep the rights to the name and the assets, or sell up?
I'd love to see someone produce a new Tam, 350, Sag or Tuscan II.
Heck I'd even struggle not to buy a new Chim, Griff, 350i or Taimar / 3000M if they were being made by a specialist company to order.
The TVR brand will have less value now than it did when Les started. The receivers will try and maximise the value. Maybe someone will try to produce electric sports cars. I'd love to see someone produce a new Tam, 350, Sag or Tuscan II.
Heck I'd even struggle not to buy a new Chim, Griff, 350i or Taimar / 3000M if they were being made by a specialist company to order.
New old models. It’s a little embarrassing that anyone would think that a feasible proposition. Just take an old car to a specialist and get it modernised, updated etc. Throw £50k at it and you’d have something very nice.
"New old models. It’s a little embarrassing that anyone would think that a feasible proposition.
In essence, Morgan have been doing that for many decades with the Plus-4, and more recently the 3-wjheeler, and they still have a long waiting-list.
"Just take an old car to a specialist and get it modernised, updated etc. Throw £50k at it and you’d have something very nice.
But it wouldn't be a new car ; and like any expensive restoration done by a private owner, it would have the residuals of a boat-anchor. Retail, the finished item would be worth far less than you spent. Whereas a genuine newly built model, made in limited numbers, might even go up in value if there was a waiting-list.
In essence, Morgan have been doing that for many decades with the Plus-4, and more recently the 3-wjheeler, and they still have a long waiting-list.
"Just take an old car to a specialist and get it modernised, updated etc. Throw £50k at it and you’d have something very nice.
But it wouldn't be a new car ; and like any expensive restoration done by a private owner, it would have the residuals of a boat-anchor. Retail, the finished item would be worth far less than you spent. Whereas a genuine newly built model, made in limited numbers, might even go up in value if there was a waiting-list.
frontfloater said:
"New old models. It’s a little embarrassing that anyone would think that a feasible proposition.
In essence, Morgan have been doing that for many decades with the Plus-4, and more recently the 3-wjheeler, and they still have a long waiting-list.
"Just take an old car to a specialist and get it modernised, updated etc. Throw £50k at it and you’d have something very nice.
But it wouldn't be a new car ; and like any expensive restoration done by a private owner, it would have the residuals of a boat-anchor. Retail, the finished item would be worth far less than you spent. Whereas a genuine newly built model, made in limited numbers, might even go up in value if there was a waiting-list.
Morgan sell 400 or so cars pa. who would pay say £80k plus for a Griff the same as the old one bar maybe an ali chassis and a Ford engine ? Nope no one. In essence, Morgan have been doing that for many decades with the Plus-4, and more recently the 3-wjheeler, and they still have a long waiting-list.
"Just take an old car to a specialist and get it modernised, updated etc. Throw £50k at it and you’d have something very nice.
But it wouldn't be a new car ; and like any expensive restoration done by a private owner, it would have the residuals of a boat-anchor. Retail, the finished item would be worth far less than you spent. Whereas a genuine newly built model, made in limited numbers, might even go up in value if there was a waiting-list.
rfisher said:
Assuming that Les doesn't get to the point of producing TVRs, is he likely to keep the rights to the name and the assets, or sell up?
I'd love to see someone produce a new Tam, 350, Sag or Tuscan II.
Heck I'd even struggle not to buy a new Chim, Griff, 350i or Taimar / 3000M if they were being made by a specialist company to order.
If TVR become bankrupt (unlikely) the bond issuer in Dublin, Audacia Capital, has priority over the Welsh Government and their other lender, Fiduciam Nominees, for the leftovers. If they did become bankrupt the value of the name and rights would be minimal. Their only other assets currently are the leasehold for the offices in Surrey and the 500 deposits plus some land used as security, all of which Fiduciam have a charge over.I'd love to see someone produce a new Tam, 350, Sag or Tuscan II.
Heck I'd even struggle not to buy a new Chim, Griff, 350i or Taimar / 3000M if they were being made by a specialist company to order.
I doubt Audacia would want the name so up for sale to the highest bidder I'd guess. But TVR has pledged to repay all debts so Les would probably sell the name etc himself I imagine.
N7GTX said:
If TVR become bankrupt (unlikely) the bond issuer in Dublin, Audacia Capital, has priority over the Welsh Government and their other lender, Fiduciam Nominees, for the leftovers.
But TVR has pledged to repay all debts so Les would probably sell the name etc himself I imagine.
I don't think you understand insolvency and the priority of payments. Audacia do not have the priority that you say they have.But TVR has pledged to repay all debts so Les would probably sell the name etc himself I imagine.
With regard to TVR Automotive, the Welsh Govt. has a fixed and floating charge dated 21/03/16 over the company's assets. That charge is still outstanding and pre-dates any charges to Fiduciam. What evidence do you have that the Govt. has subsequently agreed to take a lesser security for the taxpayers' money to give Fiduciam priority?
With regard to TVR Manufacturing, the Welsh Govt. has a charge over Lister House dated 21/03/16. Fiduciam also have charge over the same property dated 21/01/21. Charges over land and buildings have the priority in which they were registered unless there is a contrary agreement. What evidence do you have that the Govt. has agreed to take a charge that is behind Fiduciam's for the taxpayers' money, again giving Fiduciam priority?
How can TVR repay all the debts? The last set out accounts say that they owe over £10 million. You say that their assets are not worth much, which appears to be correct, so even if Les has a spare £10 odd million lying around, is he really going to pay off the debts from his own money, so that he can sell on the "name etc." as you call it. That means that he must value the "name etc." at more than £10 million, otherwise he would just cut his losses and walk away.
I do not understand how you can say that it is unlikely that TVR will go insolvent. Isn't it pretty much there already? Isn't that what the auditor's warnings are about? It owes over £10 million and I assume that you accept, as the auditors are warning, the assets are not worth £10 million, so it cannot pay it's debts when they fall due. Isn't that the legal definition of insolvency?
Gazzab said:
Why is it unlikely they might go bankrupt? Surely their financial situation is the perfect example of a pending bankruptcy?
I think LE is astute enough to know when/if the writing's on the wall. I don't think the Welsh Govt would have extended their 5 year loan to 8 years in March if the situation was 'pending bankruptcy'. Or Fiduciam obtaining a CBILS loan in January.
Read the accounts! They extended the loan because that was their only hope of getting any of it back, because had they refused, then TVR would have gone bust immediately, but nothing has changed. The bond hasn't sold, and so there is no money to do anything, it's over.
As for the CB loan, they were entitled to it, as it was a going concern, just, so the accounts said.
It's not about Les being astute, it's about there not being sufficient money to do anything and no prospect of raising any and no prospect of any more accounts being signed off.
As for the CB loan, they were entitled to it, as it was a going concern, just, so the accounts said.
It's not about Les being astute, it's about there not being sufficient money to do anything and no prospect of raising any and no prospect of any more accounts being signed off.
frontfloater said:
Revised version. Old Griffith 30 years old and still a timeless classic design : new Griffith 4 years old and already cliched and dated, then and now.
The hardware underneath the old Griffith is irrelevant ; they could have put new mechanicals under the old body, like some companies do now with MGs, Healeys, Interceptors, etc.
It wouldn't have sold, it looks dated. The T cars however still look good and current todayThe hardware underneath the old Griffith is irrelevant ; they could have put new mechanicals under the old body, like some companies do now with MGs, Healeys, Interceptors, etc.
Byker28i said:
frontfloater said:
Revised version. Old Griffith 30 years old and still a timeless classic design : new Griffith 4 years old and already cliched and dated, then and now.
The hardware underneath the old Griffith is irrelevant ; they could have put new mechanicals under the old body, like some companies do now with MGs, Healeys, Interceptors, etc.
It wouldn't have sold, it looks dated. The T cars however still look good and current todayThe hardware underneath the old Griffith is irrelevant ; they could have put new mechanicals under the old body, like some companies do now with MGs, Healeys, Interceptors, etc.
N7GTX said:
Gazzab said:
Why is it unlikely they might go bankrupt? Surely their financial situation is the perfect example of a pending bankruptcy?
I think LE is astute enough to know when/if the writing's on the wall. I don't think the Welsh Govt would have extended their 5 year loan to 8 years in March if the situation was 'pending bankruptcy'. Or Fiduciam obtaining a CBILS loan in January.Byker28i said:
Monkeylegend said:
Lucy doesn't answer questions.
but does make a lot of negative comments about TVR all over PHI don't think there is much positive to say in the current climate and if TVR was a dog it would have been put out of it's misery a couple of years ago.
Despite all that's been promised you still get the feeling that the real losers here are going to be the deposit holders.
Edited by Monkeylegend on Monday 25th October 09:13
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