VMax Hammer Results
Discussion
Rob234 said:
Well it was 202 on the Vmax timing gear and the HD footage shows the speedo at 205, rev counter about 8700. Are you saying well all have to take 7mph off the Vmax displayed speed?
I've had the car since new and its reliably done 198mph on GPS a number of times previously. I also think we had a reasonable tail wind during the day.
Where is this video you talk of? In both videos your rev counter shows 8000rpm which others have said is around 190mph. I dont believe you can have a 191mph run followed by a 202mph with the same car run over the same distance, a different line out of the bend may give you 2mph tops but not an 11mph gain especially not up in the 200mph regions.I've had the car since new and its reliably done 198mph on GPS a number of times previously. I also think we had a reasonable tail wind during the day.
I am extremely surprised that there is so much confusion over these top speed runs. Craig, I thought you would have had this nailed down to a tee after the amount of events you have organised? Are the speeds not logged? Really? If not, I am shocked. I was planning on coming to the next event but if I dont have an ''official'' set of data from the event organiser then what's the point?
In the results table people are quoting speedo figures and what they think they seen on the board at the traps? This is unacceptable, Surely Craig, as the event organiser every vmax should have been officially recorded?
I think its fairly evident that no one believes the 202 from the Scuderia which is dissapointing as no such confusion should exist if the times were getting recorded and stored properly.
Apologies if I am way off the mark and all these speeds were recorded but from an outsider looking in, it looks like 1 big mess to me.(Scuderia driver basically being called a liar about his claimed top speed)
Craig, can you comment on this?
Just to clarify gents.
The boards were pretty much where they usually are.
In vmax's gone by we recorded speeds and the boards were just an add on so people could keep an eye out for their speeds.
They are very difficult to get hold of and as a result this time, the boards the timing guys used were actually boards which are generally used as timers, this meant they didnt update quite as quickly as the usual ones.
I went down by the timing beams a few times as a spotter and I could see they definitely didnt update as quickly as usual but they were definitely showing the correct speeds, even though it might have been more tricky to see them from in car than it usually is. It is possible that people saw speeds from the previous car yes.
this will be resolved for next vmax, apologies for confusion but its a learning experience, I will make sure those boards arent used again.
The boards were pretty much where they usually are.
In vmax's gone by we recorded speeds and the boards were just an add on so people could keep an eye out for their speeds.
They are very difficult to get hold of and as a result this time, the boards the timing guys used were actually boards which are generally used as timers, this meant they didnt update quite as quickly as the usual ones.
I went down by the timing beams a few times as a spotter and I could see they definitely didnt update as quickly as usual but they were definitely showing the correct speeds, even though it might have been more tricky to see them from in car than it usually is. It is possible that people saw speeds from the previous car yes.
this will be resolved for next vmax, apologies for confusion but its a learning experience, I will make sure those boards arent used again.
In addition to this, look at Matty's entry...997 turbo..191.7 vbox / 198 trap. So what was it, 191.7 or 198? That's quite a big difference there and for £200 or whatever the admission fee is, there shouldnt be this uncertainty.
Having read back through previous events, there have been numerous mutterings about the accuracy of the measuring equipment and this is clearly another example.
Perhaps time to invest in vbox's and do it that way instead? At least people would then have something to look at and compare? 1st the vbox display after the run so no confusion and then 2nd, the graph off the data card.
Edit...Saying that, im not sure how you would be able to monitor people still accelerating after the finish line and then braking very late to get a better vmax, the distances for each car would vary so perhaps not?
Thanks for response Craig, appears just to be a 1 off 'mess' then.
Having read back through previous events, there have been numerous mutterings about the accuracy of the measuring equipment and this is clearly another example.
Perhaps time to invest in vbox's and do it that way instead? At least people would then have something to look at and compare? 1st the vbox display after the run so no confusion and then 2nd, the graph off the data card.
Edit...Saying that, im not sure how you would be able to monitor people still accelerating after the finish line and then braking very late to get a better vmax, the distances for each car would vary so perhaps not?
Thanks for response Craig, appears just to be a 1 off 'mess' then.
Edited by MitchyRS on Wednesday 7th September 14:36
As a reply to Mitchy RS who's post I hadnt seen when I made the one above..
You're making the point that It looks like a big mess with "Scuderia driver basically being called a liar about his claimed top speed)"
yet you yourself started your post with... "Where is this video you talk of? In both videos your rev counter shows 8000rpm which others have said is around 190mph. I dont believe you can have a 191mph run followed by a 202mph"
So its you disbelieving him?
There isnt usually any confusion over the top speed runs and I have explained that we were using different timing boards than the usual ones. This didnt detract from the recorded speeds, just the displayed ones. Not ideal and I didnt know until the day but there was nothing I could do about it. I think if you asked the guys who were there on saturday, this didnt detract from their enjoyment. most of the 200mph plus guys were using vboxes personally also.
You also make the point "Are the speeds not logged? Really? If not, I am shocked. I was planning on coming to the next event but if I dont have an ''official'' set of data from the event organiser then what's the point?"
I'm sorry you're so shocked and outraged by what you perceive of an event you have never been to, I'm sure if you did grace us with your presence you would have a good time also.
You're making the point that It looks like a big mess with "Scuderia driver basically being called a liar about his claimed top speed)"
yet you yourself started your post with... "Where is this video you talk of? In both videos your rev counter shows 8000rpm which others have said is around 190mph. I dont believe you can have a 191mph run followed by a 202mph"
So its you disbelieving him?
There isnt usually any confusion over the top speed runs and I have explained that we were using different timing boards than the usual ones. This didnt detract from the recorded speeds, just the displayed ones. Not ideal and I didnt know until the day but there was nothing I could do about it. I think if you asked the guys who were there on saturday, this didnt detract from their enjoyment. most of the 200mph plus guys were using vboxes personally also.
You also make the point "Are the speeds not logged? Really? If not, I am shocked. I was planning on coming to the next event but if I dont have an ''official'' set of data from the event organiser then what's the point?"
I'm sorry you're so shocked and outraged by what you perceive of an event you have never been to, I'm sure if you did grace us with your presence you would have a good time also.
not to get into an internet debate with someone I havent met before, you seem to have sprung out of nowhere ?
this wasnt a one off "mess" and I take exception to you saying so.
At Vmax200 we pride ourselves on professionalism and our concerns about primarily safety but also enjoyment for the money they have paid.
I have yet to have anyone come back after any event saying they didnt have a fantastic time, that they had a huge amount of time on the circuit and also how impressed they were with the whole event.
Yes, like any activity or event where equipment is involved things can go wrong, you very cleverly looked back through old posts to see what you could find and yes we did have an issue with one timing beam once before. People then went onto using and sharing vboxes if they were that concerned. There were no issues this time other than the boards, which are actually an add on to the service to add to the fun, not an integral part of the event.
please dont bother coming to any future events, you would clearly be too high maintenance.
this wasnt a one off "mess" and I take exception to you saying so.
At Vmax200 we pride ourselves on professionalism and our concerns about primarily safety but also enjoyment for the money they have paid.
I have yet to have anyone come back after any event saying they didnt have a fantastic time, that they had a huge amount of time on the circuit and also how impressed they were with the whole event.
Yes, like any activity or event where equipment is involved things can go wrong, you very cleverly looked back through old posts to see what you could find and yes we did have an issue with one timing beam once before. People then went onto using and sharing vboxes if they were that concerned. There were no issues this time other than the boards, which are actually an add on to the service to add to the fun, not an integral part of the event.
please dont bother coming to any future events, you would clearly be too high maintenance.
Craig, I'm sure I would have a good time. I just thought/assumed that every speed from every car would have been logged rather than relying on the driver to tell the truth about what they seen on the speed board at the end of their run. Imagine that happened at a 1/4m drag event, we'd have Vauxhall Corsa's hitting the 10sec mark ;-)
Looking in from the outside, it appears Mr Scuderia did spot a 202, but it now looks like this could have been from another car. From his own videos, the speedo is not clearly visible but his rev counter is and the 2 vids that he posted showed around 8000rpm as did the vid from the passenger that was in his car. I have no idea what 8000rpm equates too on the speedo, just that I could not see an 8700rpm which would have indicated a higher top speed. Im not calling him a liar, he probably did spot 202 on the board, but the question is, from his own car? Who knows? You'll note, it wasn't me that raised questions about the 202, it was someone else.
Anyway, ignore me, I wasn't there and I'm just looking in from the outside on this. I just would have hoped that everything would have been stored and logged, even if it was just a volunteer sitting there with pen and paper if the speed boards did not have internal memories for the stored speeds.
I'll get my coat now, Im sure you do a great job Craig, I was just raising a few points to which I was surprised at.
Over and out,
Cheers
Mitch
Looking in from the outside, it appears Mr Scuderia did spot a 202, but it now looks like this could have been from another car. From his own videos, the speedo is not clearly visible but his rev counter is and the 2 vids that he posted showed around 8000rpm as did the vid from the passenger that was in his car. I have no idea what 8000rpm equates too on the speedo, just that I could not see an 8700rpm which would have indicated a higher top speed. Im not calling him a liar, he probably did spot 202 on the board, but the question is, from his own car? Who knows? You'll note, it wasn't me that raised questions about the 202, it was someone else.
Anyway, ignore me, I wasn't there and I'm just looking in from the outside on this. I just would have hoped that everything would have been stored and logged, even if it was just a volunteer sitting there with pen and paper if the speed boards did not have internal memories for the stored speeds.
I'll get my coat now, Im sure you do a great job Craig, I was just raising a few points to which I was surprised at.
Over and out,
Cheers
Mitch
As an aside, I'm having another spotter at the beams for the next event, its very very difficult to spot the numbers on the cars at circa 200mph, particularly when you have 3 or 4 similar cars in succession.
We record as many numbers as is possible but for the reason above the odd few are missed.
The other thing is that, as vmax has evolved over the last 10 years, so have the top speeds, everything is so much quicker now. It took a long time to break the 200mph mark, now we get 4 or 5 cars every event that do it.
We record as many numbers as is possible but for the reason above the odd few are missed.
The other thing is that, as vmax has evolved over the last 10 years, so have the top speeds, everything is so much quicker now. It took a long time to break the 200mph mark, now we get 4 or 5 cars every event that do it.
Edited by CraigVmax on Wednesday 7th September 15:01
MitchyRS said:
Apologies if I am way off the mark and all these speeds were recorded but from an outsider looking in, it looks like 1 big mess to me.(Scuderia driver basically being called a liar about his claimed top speed)
Funny how no one that was there has complained.In fact, exactly the opposite. Almost everyone has posted how fantastic the day was.
Now, to your very point. You weren't there. So how on earth can you say that what people that were there is wrong? The boards were a bit slow, but then why would we actually need the boards when we have the times written down. This thread, as you can see by it's being created by people posting the results isn't what was recorded
Now, on to the Ferrari top speed.
I can easily show you how to make 11mph difference out of two runs. For a start, just have a lot of fun down the bottom and you'll be about 10mph off. Generally it's actually better to do a standing start from the bottom than use the corner,, and I can show you 20mph difference coming out of the corner in the M400 which will impact the VMAX.
But then there is also the wind. Mine on the day varied by over 15mph which given the M400 normally does +/-2mph indicates that there were a lot of external factors at play at this event. Given there was a 15mph with 25mph+ gusts wind that was all over the place two runs would be very different. I saw 10+mph difference in a GT-R.
As for the timing boards - they were a bit slow, but you don't need to actually read it because you have a speedo, generally the GPS from your Nav, as well as just going up and asking what your speed was.
But then, because you weren't there, you wouldn't know that. Instead you get behind your keyboard and tap away all sorts of aggressive posts without one single fact.
If you want to come along then you'll find out why some of us go back and back and back, and people enjoy the day. If you want to be aggressive and take away a ball you never had, then that's your choice.
J
CraigVmax said:
please dont bother coming to any future events, you would clearly be too high maintenance.
That's fine if you feel like that, I wont bother attending then but what's the point in discussion forums if people are not allowed to raise questions without the retaliation of, you're not welcome? All I am guilty of is rasing a few points to which I found valid. I have not popped out of nowhere, I was around the last time a similar discussion reared its head when the timing beams in the left or was it right lane (cant remember now) were giving very spurious readings.
This particular event does appear to be a bit of a mess? Disagree? Well, we have numerous people in this thread already unsure of what their actual vmax was. Quoting speedo, quoting other cars, quoting vbox that is vastly different to timing beams etc. I would say that's a bit of a mess, no?
This is only my opinion, I think all this should be improved on for the next event. I'd be p*ssed if I had spent £200 and not been given an official vmax figure or a figure I believed to be my own but was the V10 R8 in front of me.
Anyway, I'll bow out of this discussion now, I've raised my points.
I'll keep an eye out for the next 1 Craig ;-) I'm sure I'll have a good time chasing down these 996TT's.
Cheers,
joust said:
Instead you get behind your keyboard and tap away all sorts of aggressive posts without one single fact.
If you want to be aggressive and take away a ball you never had, then that's your choice.
J
Aggressive, really?If you want to be aggressive and take away a ball you never had, then that's your choice.
J
I asked a couple of questions and raised a couple of points, this is afterall an internet discussion forum. People often have different views or opinions, just because someone may disagree with the points I have raised, it does not make my postings aggressive.
I've already said I would bow out of this, I only posted due to the uncertainty of some times.
Wish I hadn't of bothered now, but oh well, I'm sure you nor I will lose any sleep tonight.
I'll say no more, I just thought it a little unfair that you called me aggressive, I am far from.
Mitch
I'm all for discussion and as much banter as anyone likes, anyone who knows me will tell you that. You however, are making points and being deliberatly provocative by saying things like "This particular event does appear to be a bit of a mess?" about an event that you've never been to.
I havent ever had anyone come to me saying that they didnt feel they had their money's worth or saying they hadnt had their vmax figure so I'm not sure what you mean by this. Again, you havent been so you wouldnt really understand the mood of the day.
What I have done frequently though is for people who have car problems in the day, offered them a free space in the future so nobody is out of pocket.
It's not a question of whether you're welcome or not, we all have a great time at vmax, myself included, I simply dont need the grief of someone coming to find fault. Life's too short.
I havent ever had anyone come to me saying that they didnt feel they had their money's worth or saying they hadnt had their vmax figure so I'm not sure what you mean by this. Again, you havent been so you wouldnt really understand the mood of the day.
What I have done frequently though is for people who have car problems in the day, offered them a free space in the future so nobody is out of pocket.
It's not a question of whether you're welcome or not, we all have a great time at vmax, myself included, I simply dont need the grief of someone coming to find fault. Life's too short.
Edited by CraigVmax on Wednesday 7th September 15:14
I'm not gonna jump too far into this, since I haven't been to most of the recent VMaxes and I don't want in any way to denigrate what is a great job Craig and others do.
My point is simply that a 430 Scuderia has a claimed top speed of only 196mph by Ferrari (who are never ever conservative) and in most cases recent Ferraris have struggled to hit the claimed top speeds when tested. We also know that a car that reaches a GPS 202mph has got a lot more left in it, since almost all cars are still accelerating (albeit slowly) when they cross the line.
A 599GTO has a claimed 205mph by comparison, but only reached 198mph on the day, which is about right.
So to me the only way a Scud would show a 202 GPS is either that the driver saw a timing beam display from a prior cars run (and this has happened to me on previous VMax events), or there was a very big tailwind.
My point is simply that a 430 Scuderia has a claimed top speed of only 196mph by Ferrari (who are never ever conservative) and in most cases recent Ferraris have struggled to hit the claimed top speeds when tested. We also know that a car that reaches a GPS 202mph has got a lot more left in it, since almost all cars are still accelerating (albeit slowly) when they cross the line.
A 599GTO has a claimed 205mph by comparison, but only reached 198mph on the day, which is about right.
So to me the only way a Scud would show a 202 GPS is either that the driver saw a timing beam display from a prior cars run (and this has happened to me on previous VMax events), or there was a very big tailwind.
Edited by Guyr on Wednesday 7th September 16:15
Edited by Guyr on Wednesday 7th September 16:16
Guyr said:
So to me the only way a Scud would show a 202 GPS is either that the driver saw a timing beam display from a prior cars run (and this has happened to me on previous VMax events), or there was a very big tailwind.
It was indeed windy. Even I finally got over 169 which has never, ever, ever, happened before, and the last time I got 169 there was again a tailwind.J
Guy makes a valid point, I was surprised by the scud reading too but as Joust said, there were some bonkers winds on the runway that day.
I have the scud readings ranging from 191 to 194 but its a) possible we missed one, and b) possible he had a big taiwind for a run. I had big variation in my speeds at different times on gps.
Any mis readings (and Im not saying this was one) could have been down to the boards updating slower than usual but not the recording equipment being wrong, it wasnt.
Ref any previous discrepancies, as far as I'm aware there was only once that we had any debate over it and as such I always have the beams calibrated twice on the day since.
I am also looking into individual in car vboxes in the future in an attempt to improve things further.
onwards and upwards as they say.
I have the scud readings ranging from 191 to 194 but its a) possible we missed one, and b) possible he had a big taiwind for a run. I had big variation in my speeds at different times on gps.
Any mis readings (and Im not saying this was one) could have been down to the boards updating slower than usual but not the recording equipment being wrong, it wasnt.
Ref any previous discrepancies, as far as I'm aware there was only once that we had any debate over it and as such I always have the beams calibrated twice on the day since.
I am also looking into individual in car vboxes in the future in an attempt to improve things further.
onwards and upwards as they say.
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