Steering wheel wobble that cannot be cured

[PositronicRay]

NeoPrime85 said:

PositronicRay said:

Balancing centreless wheels, not everyone understands this, worth a shot.

https://www.hometyre.co.uk/services/wheel-balancin...

https://passionford.com/forum/technical-help-q-and...

Sorry, the tyres and wheels have been balanced 4 times by three different shops already, why do it again at further cost when its not solving the issue?

Am i missing something?

Most garages and tyre places will use the middle of the wheel to centre it when balancing, they won't even consider that your wheel "centres" from the wheel nut taper, even if they had the equipment.

Read the links and ask your balancers the question.

[overunder12g]

I had a similar problem on a fairly new Capri (obviously years ago) Ford garage advised that two causes were known to them. Firstly all four wheels should be balanced. Out of balance rear wheels were known to cause wobble at around 50/60 mph.
The other cause was known to be warped discs. I know you say yours are new but maybe worth checking.
Hope you get it sorted.

[SlimJim16v]

By fitting the wider wheels, you changed the scrub radius, the difference between the KPI/SAI and the centre of the tyre. This change is finding the weak point, wherever it is.

The wheels should be centred by the spigot. Are they, or are they possibly universal fit with the spigot ring missing?
You mentioned spacers, not good in your circumstances.

The only things I can think of that you haven't looked at, are the inner mounting holes for the TCAs. It may have had a wack and made the holes in the crossmember slightly oval? Or worn struts, with play in the strut rod/body?

Edited by SlimJim16v on Sunday 21st May 23:07

[Fastpedeller]

Are you using the correct wheel nuts for the alloy wheels. A mate fitted some cortina alloy wheels to his escort years ago and had similar problems because he was using the old wheel nuts for the steel wheels. The wheel nuts were torqued up, but close examination revealed they were bottoming out on the hub and not clamping the wheel - it wasn't apparent with the car at rest, only when there was enough force due to driving at speed.

[GreenV8S]

NeoPrime85 said:

Again not sure what else to check at this stage

Print out Mignon's comment about the wheel bearing preload and ask a competent mechanic to do the check Mignon described.

[S0 What]

NeoPrime85 said:

S0 What said:

capris where infamouse back in the day for warped hubs, get them checked,(saying that warped hubs/discs usually shows up under braking) you need a dial gauge to check propperly, the speed the wobble comes in is suspicious, most ballencing machines only acheive a certain speed, usually tyres are ballenced at around 60 MPH so are in "tune" at that speed, not wobbling at that speed meens nothing if the wheels or tyres are warped, i've seen flat spoted tryes (caused by long periods parked up in a garage) ballence fine up to 60 but get the vehical up to 90 and you cant see a thing due to the vibrations, i'd get the wheels on a ballencer and using a fixed point see if they are out of true, same with the tyres, you need a decent tyre shop who are willing to help find the issue not just reballence and send you on your way.
I've also seen many many new alloys that are out of true nowdays being new is no guarantee the item is fit for use, just looking at a bush and levering on it will not allways show an issue, change them, they dont cost a lot (just time), trust me from what you say you still loads to check, one Mk3 cortina i had in took me 3 weeks to fix and that tured out to be flat spoted tyres (only done 200 miles but 3 years on a car parked up), 2 out of true but brand new GB alloys and too many poly bushes taking out any vibration absorption capability of the chassis, it's rarey just the one thing (as said above) it's usually a combination of issue that on thier own wouldn't really be an issue, even after sorting the wheel tyre issue on the cortina i gave it back with the recomendation to fit rubber and never ever fully poly bush a road car, especialy an old one designed in the 60's where expected speeds (and customer expectations) where lower.

On an old ford poly bushes are not a help, the older style bearings naturaly have play and hense cause vibrations that polys will transmit to the chassis, personly i would fit new bearings, check the disc hub runout and go back to rubber bushes, polys are great on a track, not so great on the road but first get the whells on a ballencer and check for ovality and or out of true tyres, do this by EYE not the results the machine pumps out.

Edited by S0 What on Sunday 21st May 16:26

I have heard a couple of people mention poly bushes arent good for road cars. Its just strange that this issue only comes up if i put different wheels on the car, as i said the factory spec 13" rims (which dont require spigot rings and have NEVER needed anything but the nuts to centre them, seriously just go on any Capri forum and ask and the answer will be the same, you dont need them) dont cause any issue, the wobble is 95% absent on the factory wheels.

Edited by NeoPrime85 on Sunday 21st May 19:31

As said the differant wheel could welll be amplifying the issue, the fact you say the standard steels take away 95% of the issue also meens the new alloys are amplifying the issue by 95%, the standard ford steels are centerd by the hub spigot if the new wheel are not sitting tight on the spigot they need spigot rings to take up the gap, thats what spigot rings are for after all, yes not every alloy will need (well they ALL need them but some won't create an issue) them but not all alloys are made equall, how much weight is there on the new alloys (ballence weights) if it's over 50 there's an issue with the natural ballence, i've seen some (that Mk3 i mentioned) that had 145g on there to get them "ballenced".
Next i'd probably get the camber and castor checked as well as toe in case there's something bent?

[SlimJim16v]

I seem to remember the hub nut was set to a certain torque and then backed off 90 degrees?
It was then kept in position by a 12 point retainer with lots of tags/gaps for the split pin, so by correct placement allowed the pin to fit without moving the nut.

[NeoPrime85]

PositronicRay said:

Most garages and tyre places will use the middle of the wheel to centre it when balancing, they won't even consider that your wheel "centres" from the wheel nut taper, even if they had the equipment.

Read the links and ask your balancers the question.

Ah i see. Yeah the garages i took them to (all 3 of them) balanced the wheels by using the centre point when mounting the wheels to their machine, they didnt mount them by the wheel nut holes.

overunder12g said:

I had a similar problem on a fairly new Capri (obviously years ago) Ford garage advised that two causes were known to them. Firstly all four wheels should be balanced. Out of balance rear wheels were known to cause wobble at around 50/60 mph.
The other cause was known to be warped discs. I know you say yours are new but maybe worth checking.
Hope you get it sorted.

Yeah both front discs are brand new only a few months ago, but i'll check them just to be sure.

SlimJim16v said:

By fitting the wider wheels, you changed the scrub radius, the difference between the KPI/SAI and the centre of the tyre. This change is finding the weak point, wherever it is.

The wheels should be centred by the spigot. Are they, or are they possibly universal fit with the spigot ring missing?
You mentioned spacers, not good in your circumstances.

The only things I can think of that you haven't looked at, are the inner mounting holes for the TCAs. It may have had a wack and made the holes in the crossmember slightly oval? Or worn struts, with play in the strut rod/body?

Edited by SlimJim16v on Sunday 21st May 23:07

This is what im thinking, its obvious bigger wheels and tyres are finding some weak link somewhere where it isnt the wheels and tyres themselves causing the issues, trouble is finding it.
The alloys i bought and first tried (where this whole ordeal started) didn't come with spigot rings (the wheels are designed for a Capri according to the vendor, loads of people buy this style of wheel for their old Fords and have no issue), i mentioned my problem to the very people who i bought them from (who also make them) and they said they didnt need spigot rings and "theyve been selling them for years without any issues) but sent me some anyway on the off chance it would fix the issue, they didnt help one bit.
As i said, these wheels (including the stock originals, which are alloys also) are centred by the wheel nuts themselves.
You lift the wheel onto the hubs, then bolt them up and thats it. But like i said ive tried spigot rings and they made zero difference anyway so its not that.
The struts have been checked, one was even replaced because it was so bad but the other we didnt touch as it was still fine. Replacing the worn one made zero difference to anything, apart from make the car sit level again lol.
I will check the TCA's again though, as well as the anti roll bar as that did need new bushes a while ago but like i said before this has already been checked before multiple times so it feels like im just doing the same things over and over and hoping for different results which by definition is insanity lol.
Thank you for mentioning the scrub radius thing, that will help immensely now i know what it means and can actually convey that info to others who might know what to do with that info.

Fastpedeller said:

Are you using the correct wheel nuts for the alloy wheels. A mate fitted some cortina alloy wheels to his escort years ago and had similar problems because he was using the old wheel nuts for the steel wheels. The wheel nuts were torqued up, but close examination revealed they were bottoming out on the hub and not clamping the wheel - it wasn't apparent with the car at rest, only when there was enough force due to driving at speed.

Yes sir. On my factory alloys im using the same factory nuts i always have, with the alloys i bought im using the nuts supplied by the manufacturer as i had to specify what car the wheels were being fitted to (as they can also fit Escorts etc) so they could supply me with the correct nuts.
On the third set of alloys im testing im using my old factory nuts again as that is all thats needed since they are Ford alloys from the generation.
The previous owner of these alloys had them on his Capri prior and used the same factory spec Ford nuts i am using on them and he had no issues.
Though, i will mention this to my mechanic next time i see him and see what his opinion is on the whole wheel nut debate.
Thanks for the info.

GreenV8S said:

Print out Mignon's comment about the wheel bearing preload and ask a competent mechanic to do the check Mignon described.

Print out? Son, its 2017, i'll just show him the thread on my phone! lol.

S0 What said:

As said the differant wheel could welll be amplifying the issue, the fact you say the standard steels take away 95% of the issue also meens the new alloys are amplifying the issue by 95%, the standard ford steels are centerd by the hub spigot if the new wheel are not sitting tight on the spigot they need spigot rings to take up the gap, thats what spigot rings are for after all, yes not every alloy will need (well they ALL need them but some won't create an issue) them but not all alloys are made equall, how much weight is there on the new alloys (ballence weights) if it's over 50 there's an issue with the natural ballence, i've seen some (that Mk3 i mentioned) that had 145g on there to get them "ballenced".
Next i'd probably get the camber and castor checked as well as toe in case there's something bent?

The standard Ford wheels arent steel, they are alloy. They are the old fashioned 4-spoke rims fitted to the car as standard, hell i think the bolts im using are 34-year old originals too lol.
Yeah, some of the weights on the new alloys i bought are insane. One had to have over 180g just to get it to balance, others needed...iirc 100-ish and the other two needed well over 40 to 50g each, it was insane.
Camber and castor? I know exactly what one of those things is at least lol. Thanks for mentioning it though, this is all good data i can relay to someone who isnt as thick as i am when it comes to mechanicals. Im more a "felt tip fairy" kinda guy. I know how to make cars look pretty and repair damage, haven't got a clue how to make them work though lol.

Thank you everyone for your time. I'll show my mechanic this thread tomorrow and see whats what.

[AW111]

It's worth checking for play in the steering rack end links. Worn rack links & a worn bush in the rack made my MR2 shake the wheel like mad at certain speeds, worse with wider tyres.

[PositronicRay]

http://www.gregsmithequipment.com/Hub-Centric-Vs-L...

[S0 What]

NeoPrime85 said:

Yeah, some of the weights on the new alloys i bought are insane. One had to have over 180g just to get it to balance, others needed...iirc 100-ish and the other two needed well over 40 to 50g each, it was insane.
Camber and castor? I know exactly what one of those things is at least lol. Thanks for mentioning it though, this is all good data i can relay to someone who isnt as thick as i am when it comes to mechanicals. Im more a "felt tip fairy" kinda guy. I know how to make cars look pretty and repair damage, haven't got a clue how to make them work though lol.

Thank you everyone for your time. I'll show my mechanic this thread tomorrow and see whats what.

.

With that amount of weights on them there is an issue with them, no wheel and tyre needs that amount unless there is an issue with the natural balence of either the tyre or the wheel, personly i'd try a wheel on a ballencer without the tyre, IMHO any tyre shop that sends a wheel/tyre out with that amount of weight on it and thinks it's OK shouldn't be trading, my place would and has made a point of telling me there is an issue if they go near 50G.
I have a customer with an escort with the 15 inch RS 7 spokes, all 4 have flat spots from curbing at speed and thump at around the 30MPH (no steering wheel shake as it not a side to side imbalence) mark, non have more than 75G on them anf you can see the flat spots on the inner rim by eye.
Standard 4 spokes so it's a laser and has solid discs, not so much of an issue with warped discs on them, mainly the vented 2.8s that sufferd with disc runout, TBH as far as i can see (obv from a distance) they tyre/wheels are the issue, you could get a tyre shop to spin the tyre on the rim and make sure the heavy spot is opposite the valve, that may help on an inherantly imbalenced wheel (if they are not set up like that already that is), good luck and please if you sort it, let us know, it's allways helpfull next time the issue arises if we know past results

[NeoPrime85]

No solution as of yet, and it seems i was wrong when i said the problem goes away with the car's original factory wheels.
I was able to give it a good proper run today on a road that allows motorway speeds (very few places around me where you can legally and safely go above 60mph and i dont drive on them very often) and the wobble was there just as it is on the aftermarket wheels, however it came on at 60 mph instead of 50/55 like it does on the aftermarket set but stays there no matter how fast you go, as in you cant drive "through" it and smooth it out, again just like the aftermarket set. (Tried going up to 80, wasn't willing to take it further due to how bad the wobble is and the fact that doing so is immensely illegal)

Had my mechanic check everything once again, and we have detected minor play in the entire steering rack, this is due to mounting bushes that are beginning to fail so have ordered a new set.

Not much else we can try at this stage other than changing the bushes and getting the alignment checked, which i am going to get done as soon as my mechanic is able to borrow the tools he needs to do it with as he doesn't currently have his own.

We have found a buckle in one of the factory rims that was on the front left, so we put a wheel from the rear which isnt buckled (but has no balancing weights on it for some reason) just to see if that helped. We suspected it wouldn't, and it didn't, but was worth a try anyway.
At this stage im willing to try anything no matter how stupid it seems to fix this as its obvious logic and reason flew out the window ages ago with this whole problem.

Will hopefully have the alignment checked within the next couple of weeks, new bushes should arrive next week so i'll get them fitted asap.

My mechanic still reckons theres a balancing issue, he says if it was mechanical i would feel the wobble all the time, not just at high speeds. However it seems strange that 3 different sets of wheels and tyres are all out of balance (especially since one set are literally brand new and have been balanced 4 times by 3 separate garages and i have been shown on the balancing machine that they all zero out, but then again if they weren't balanced using the lugs like was mentioned earlier this reading wouldn't be accurate), seems statistically improbable to me but life is never ever logical so i wouldn't be surprised (especially with my bad luck) if that was the case.

[NeoPrime85]

Oh one thing i did want to mention, which is sorta related to the problem but not really:
On the aftermarket set of rims i have, they are a 7J rim fitted with 205/60/r13 tyres. On the standard Capri 2.8i models, this is the tyre size that came with the car from the factory, and the most commonly used tyre used by owners for the same type of rim, or rims with the 7J offset, however the tyres i bought say they should only be fitted to a 6J rim?
Why is this? The tyre size is exactly what came on the factory 7J rims so should be suitable for any 7J rim, and this is what everyone else uses too so why do the tyres say otherwise?

[SlimJim16v]

Strange, tyres don't normally have a fitting size specified on them. You can however find a range of wheel sizes on the manufacturers website. For a 205/60x13 it's usually 6.5" - 7.5" but I have seen them fitted to 6" and 8" wheels.
What tyres are they?

[GreenV8S]

NeoPrime85 said:

rims with the 7J offset

The 'J' refers to the cross section of the rim that the tyre fits to. The '7' is the nominal width in inches.

Offset is something completely different and refers to the distance between the centerline of the rim and the plane of the hub mounting flange. The offset is likely to be quite important to this problem but 7J is not the offset. (I don't think you've told us the offset of any of the wheels you've mentioned.)

[NeoPrime85]

SlimJim16v said:

Strange, tyres don't normally have a fitting size specified on them. You can however find a range of wheel sizes on the manufacturers website. For a 205/60x13 it's usually 6.5" - 7.5" but I have seen them fitted to 6" and 8" wheels.
What tyres are they?

Nankang Econex's. Not a great brand i know but theres really not much choice when it comes to this tyre size, not for someone on a budget anyway.
Glad im not the only one who thinks the tyres having a fitting size specified on them is odd, especially when this is the exact size tyre thats fitted to these exact size wheels and offset from the factory on the 2.8i models.

GreenV8S said:

The 'J' refers to the cross section of the rim that the tyre fits to. The '7' is the nominal width in inches.

Offset is something completely different and refers to the distance between the centerline of the rim and the plane of the hub mounting flange. The offset is likely to be quite important to this problem but 7J is not the offset. (I don't think you've told us the offset of any of the wheels you've mentioned.)

Oh...i did not know that, thought thats what the "7J" meant. I have no clue what the offsets are, I only know they are supposed to fit because others have fitted these aftermarket wheels to their Capris without issue.
No idea what the factory originals i have are (seeing as they are the factory wheels there should be no issues with them as far as fitment or offsets are concerned, its what the car was fitted with from the factory), but looking at the auction page in my eBay history where i bought the aftermarket rims from it seems they are something called a "ET-7".

These are common wheels that are fitted to Capris, Escorts etc and very popular in the Ford scene. I checked on all the appropriate Ford Capri forums to make sure these wheels would fit prior to buying them and nobody said anything would be problematic, i was assured the opposite.
The auction even states they are for a Capri, and the seller assured me they'd be fine as well and has sold and supplied Capri owners with tons of them throughout the years with no issue.

Edit: Seems the factory original 4 spoke alloys i have have an offset of ET-5. I know this is different from what the aftermarket wheels are, but again those should fit without issue due to the simple fact that so many fit them to their cars without issue, and also the factory fitted 7J ET-7 "Pepperpot" alloys Ford fitted to the 2.8i models are exactly the same as my aftermarket wheels offset wise also, and nobody seems to have an issue with them when they fit them to their Capris so not certain why my car should be any different seeing as its 100% factory spec.

I'm well aware my car isn't a 2.8i but that doesn't mean anything, as it doesn't explain why i also have this issue with my old factory fitted wheels too.

As i said before, when it comes to this problem logic and reason ran away to Narnia a long long time ago lol.

[NeoPrime85]

This was finally cured with a proper alignment check. The front wheels were badly toeing in so had them adjusted and the wobble is completely gone. Hurrah!