Front brakes

[Ste372]

Ok need a few opinions. Thinking of brake upgrades for the front of my car.
Let's assume for the purpose of this the brake fluid, hoses and the brand of discs and pads will be the same across both set ups.

Standard setup Consists of:
Single pot caliper with 48mm piston
257mm x 17mm vented discs
Pad measurement 109mm x 45mm x 15mm

Potential upgrade would be:
Twin pot caliper with 38mm x2 pistons
266mm x 18mm vented discs
Pad measurement 73mm x 54mm x 16mm

Would you consider the new potential set up a 'upgrade' the smaller surface area of the new pads is making me doubt myself. I believe the initial bite maybe better but may suffer brake fade sooner?

I could also use 290mm x 18mm vented discs if they fit under my wheels as I'm only on 15in at minute.

What do we think people?

Edited to add the brake master cylinder and the servo will beremaining standard also

[ruhall]

What car is it? Any performance upgrades?

[anonymous-user]

It's worth remembering that the brake and other systems of modern cars are choc-full of clever computery.

Basic ABS works in a straight forward manner with the ABS system 'letting go' of the brakes for a wheel when it detects any wheel lock. It then reapplies the brake(s) unless/until another lock-up is detected.

However, TCS, ECS, EBD etc modulate brake system in accordance with your ECU's specific programming. A bigger brake kit and/or different calliper on the same disc may change the parameters away from what the system has been programmed to do. This may cause the functions to work improperly.

[Ste372]

Sorry should of put some back ground on the first post.

Car is 2004 suzuki ignis sport
Abs fitted with discs/pads all round
Car currently has coilovers, new oem suspension and steering components
Polybushed ARB
15" team dynamics wheels approx 4.5kg per corner matching toyo tyres
Braided hoses and green stuff pads at present

[ging84]

Presumably these numbers are not from a selection of parts you've found but from an upgrade kit designed for your car by someone who knows a lot more about brakes than you do.
I suggest you trust them over the advice of some random people on a general motoring forum

Brake fade will generally have much more to do with the surface area of the disks than the contact area of the pads.

[Ste372]

The numbers have come from a set of calipers I have seen fitted to another car. The mounting bracket looks very close to being direct bolt on and relative low cost make me want to research the option more. The ignis is a niche car and as such upgraded parts are virtually non existent or extremely expensive as not much demand for them.

[ging84]

designing your own brakes is a terrible idea

[Ste372]

Why?

[braddo]

I would look at just a brake pad (and fluid) upgrade.

Check out Rent4Ring and the Suzuki Swifts they use as hire cars at the Nurburgring - they use standard discs and Endless racing pads and the results are incredible (I hired one a few years ago). They tried various combinations but they found that standard disc could take the extreme pad. Discs are replaced when pads need replacing.

The Endless pads are at the extreme end, being for endurance racing and very expensive, but they show what's possible without going through all the faff of changing calipers etc.

[MKnight702]

Try changing the Greenstuff pads and brake fluid first.

I had Greenstuff on my XI and they were a triumph of marketing over performance. Swapped them for some cheap Mintex pads and boom, I had brakes again. Then I changes the brake fluid for some better stuff and the fade disappeared too.

[AdeTuono]

Ste372 said:

Why?

I imagine Suzuki's R&D department are a little more au fait with brake design than you are.

[Galveston]

MKnight702 said:

Try changing the Greenstuff pads and brake fluid first.

I had Greenstuff on my XI and they were a triumph of marketing over performance. Swapped them for some cheap Mintex pads and boom, I had brakes again. Then I changes the brake fluid for some better stuff and the fade disappeared too.

Yep, launch the Greenstuffs into the nearest bin. For road use standard Suzuki pads, or for track use one of the many other brands.

What are you hoping to achieve with the upgrade?

[InitialDave]

Do you actually need better brakes? Are you cooking the ones you've got currently?

I'd start with good pads on fresh discs myself, and see how that goes, before getting into a big refit of everything.

[DuraAce]

AdeTuono said:

Ste372 said:

Why?

I imagine Suzuki's R&D department are a little more au fait with brake design than you are.

Indeed.

Don't forget to factor the servo/master cylinder into the mix - if you change to calipers that require different fluid flow levels then you might find your brake pedal point(although fully bled) is either very high or very low.

[GreenV8S]

Ste372 said:

Single pot caliper with 48mm piston
Twin pot caliper with 38mm x2 pistons

Is the proposed new caliper also a floating caliper (both pistons on one side)? If not, this would be a massive downgrade.

How is the brake balance currently, while the pads are at a sensible temperature?

What problem are you trying to solve? The most obvious reason to upgrade is to reduce overheating but you haven't actually said.

[Ste372]

Hi thank you for replying. The braking is good in my opinion at present but I have plans to fit a bigger modified engine and go turbo. Eventual result will hopefully be around the 300hp mark. I'm trying to upgrade all the areas as a matter of course before I make it go quicker.

The upgrade is as much for appearance as for performance. Obviously if it's going to have a negative effect on brake performance it's a non starter.

The calipers I'm looking at are a piston on either side of the caliper.

Still in early stages at the min and need to look further into rear up grades if possible and servo/master cylinder options. I just don't want to modify the car to accelerate a lot faster and the brakes are barely stopping the car. I'm trying to cover all bases and hopefully end up with a very capable all round car for my troubles

[GreenV8S]

Ste372 said:

I'm trying to upgrade all the areas as a matter of course before I make it go quicker.

The upgrade is as much for appearance as for performance. Obviously if it's going to have a negative effect on brake performance it's a non starter.

The calipers I'm looking at are a piston on either side of the caliper.

The calipers you're describing are completely unsuitable for the car and would result in about 40% less braking effect for a given pedal pressure. If the original setup was about right (you can assume it is if this is the OEM setup) then this is going to give you a dangerous imbalance. If you're doing this for performance reasons then don't touch anything unless/until you understand exactly what problem you are trying to solve, because designing a braking system is not trivial and definitely not just a matter of buying shiny parts and bolting them on. This has the potential to completely screw up the braking system, resulting in a car which is dangerous to drive as well as potentially uninsurable if this is a road car.

If you're doing it for cosmetic reasons then you still have to understand the effect on the brake balance and all the ways this can be screwed up - new wheels may be a safer option to add bling.

[InitialDave]

It looks, from a quick google, like a company called D2 makes a 4-pot kit with a variety of disc sizes. I expect there are others also?

Perhaps an off-the-shelf solution might be the least amount of hassle.

[Ste372]

Thank you for the replys. I'll look into other options.

[Kozy]

InitialDave said:

It looks, from a quick google, like a company called D2 makes a 4-pot kit with a variety of disc sizes. I expect there are others also?

Perhaps an off-the-shelf solution might be the least amount of hassle.

D2 strike me as one of those companies that make a part, and then make a bracket to fit it to almost every car on the market. Wouldn’t trust them to have done any vehicle specific R&D beyond the caliper bracket...