Is it alignment or something else ????

[fendertele]

HustleRussell said:

I can't believe they replaced the rear axle and bearings! There was nothing wrong with the geometry to suggest that something was awry.

Have we had a mechanic in the driver's seat yet?

Has the description of the problem changed again? If it's a 'pull' its more likely to be brakes or tyre related.

This was the printout pre axle change and the reason it was replaced as it had shifted after having it shimmed ( as seen in the previous alignment printouts I posted a few weeks back)

I Mentioned back then that when I was driving that I could feel something shifting while I was driving taking corners... and by the look of the printout a below the rear was moving... so I decided rather than shim it again to get the rear axle replaced...

I thought it was tyre pull also but I rotated the fronts and back and it still pulls left slightly.... I can see my steering wheel start to turn left when I'm driving all the time and it moves much more with bumps on the road.

yeah I gave them half a tank and when I got it back it was nearly empty so I imagine a lot of road testing.

Edited by fendertele on Wednesday 21st February 17:42

[HustleRussell]

Axles don't 'shift'. The measurements are well within the realms of what could be considered 'normal'. None of this is going to cause a sensation that the car is 'leaning', 'shifting', 'pulling' or whatever the description of the problem is this week.

It is absolutely illogical to continue down the path of endlessly trying to make a Seat Toledo handle in a particular way without first determining whether the problem exists entirely in your head and has done since the beginning.

That is why people keep asking you;

Has there been a mechanic in the driving seat yet?

[fendertele]

HustleRussell said:

Axles don't 'shift'. The measurements are well within the realms of what could be considered 'normal'. None of this is going to cause a sensation that the car is 'leaning', 'shifting', 'pulling' or whatever the description of the problem is this week.

It is absolutely illogical to continue down the path of endlessly trying to make a Seat Toledo handle in a particular way without first determining whether the problem exists entirely in your head and has done since the beginning.

That is why people keep asking you;

Has there been a mechanic in the driving seat yet?

I don't get what you mean ? the toe and camber had went out of spec.... I never hit anything from the time he shimmed the rear to getting the rear axle replaced and it went out of spec.. so how did it not shift ? the read out was in the green previously and in the printout above was in the red.. if it hasn't moved what else could cause the rear to go out of spec ?

yeah the seat mechanics doing the axle swap had road tested I imagine as my fuel was nearly empty when I picked it up today.

[HustleRussell]

fendertele said:

I don't get what you mean ? the toe and camber had went out of spec.... I never hit anything from the time he shimmed the rear to getting the rear axle replaced and it went out of spec.. so how did it not shift ? the read out was in the green previously and in the printout above was in the red.. if it hasn't moved what else could cause the rear to go out of spec ?

yeah the seat mechanics doing the axle swap had road tested I imagine as my fuel was nearly empty when I picked it up today.

We're talking about minutes here (60ths of a single degree). The measurements are only so repeatable, suspension is a dynamic thing- the operator loading and unloading the car (including fuel level) during the adjustment, any movement of the sensors relative to the road wheel or back / forth movement of the car during measurement will cause slight variation. You aren't going to get 100% repeatability from one measurement to another even on the same ramp, that's why there are tolerances and 'go /no go' green or red colour coding on the print out.

Your car since the very first printout you provided has been aligned in such a way that I would expect it to drive 'normally' i.e. with no discernible difference in normal driving from a hypothetical 'perfect' car with all measurements accurate to the minute.

You have speculated on the problem throughout the thread without ever describing adequately the actual symptoms.

You are now supposing that the measurements are drastically changing in normal driving which if you think about it could only indicate that something is broken or incorrectly assembled- but a few mechanics have looked at it now so we can perhaps rule this out?

Your descriptions are poor and the problem has varied from a 'lean' to a 'veer' to a 'pull', originally from the front and now from the rear, originally to the right and now to the left etc etc...

The latest mechanic tested the car extensively according to fuel use and presumably concluded that it was ok? (although you haven't actually told us this)

The common denominator is you and your insistence that the car isn't driving properly which after all this makes me wonder if it's all in your head?

Your total toe front and rear are sensible values. Your camber and castor is now as close to perfect as you'll ever get it. The car should track straight. If the toe is uneven left to right the wheel may sit off centre but the car will track straight. Your suspension geometry will not be causing 'leaning' 'pulling' 'veering' etc.

Edited by HustleRussell on Wednesday 21st February 18:12

[fendertele]

HustleRussell said:

We're talking about minutes here (60ths of a single degree). The measurements are only so repeatable, suspension is a dynamic thing- the operator loading and unloading the car (including fuel level) during the adjustment, any movement of the sensors relative to the road wheel or back / forth movement of the car during measurement will cause slight variation. You aren't going to get 100% repeatability from one measurement to another even on the same ramp, that's why there are tolerances and 'go /no go' green or black colour coding on the print out.

Your car since the very first printout you provided has been aligned in such a way that I would expect it to drive 'normally' i.e. with no discernible difference in normal driving from a hypothetical 'perfect' car with all measurements accurate to the minute.

You have speculated on the problem throughout the thread without ever describing adequately the actual symptoms.

You are now supposing that the measurements are drastically changing in normal driving which if you think about it could only indicate that something is broken or incorrectly assembled- but a few mechanics have looked at it now so we can perhaps rule this out?

Your descriptions are poor and the problem has varied from a 'lean' to a 'veer' to a 'pull', originally from the front and now from the rear, originally to the right and now to the left etc etc...

The latest mechanic tested the car extensively according to fuel use and presumably concluded that it was ok? (although you haven't actually told us this)

The common denominator is you and your insistence that the car isn't driving properly which after all this makes me wonder if it's all in your head?

I never spoke with the mechanic just the service girl... and then I took it straight for an alignment check after the work was done. I have always said the car steers to the right and pulls/leans to the left. But someone pointed out a few replies back that the car cannot lean so I then concluded it must be just how it feels due to the pull and it not actually leaning.

I mentioned that the pull could come and go after taking a roundabout or peforming a 3 point turn which made me believe it was something moving/shifting about during such manoeuvres.

I would imagine that anything that is bent or broken would have been spotted when they stripped the car down to replace the axles or when they fitted the camber bolts on the front ?

The reason I posted today was to figure out why the rear although in spec is still sitting overall to the right toe ? I would have thought when replacing the rear axle that both rear wheels would be close to 0 but both the left is toed in and the right is slightly toed out causing the thrust angle to be to the right...

but basically the only time the car feels right and i'm comfortable driving it is when the road is crowning to the right/drivers side.... when the road is flar or crowning left it feels off.. I don't want to use the word lean as that isn't possible but that is exactly how I would describe it... leaning/slightly pulling left.

now I know it is normal for a car to pull more when the road is crowning... but I do not feel the pull half as much when the road is crowning to the right/drivers side.

anyways cheers for the reply i'll drive on it for a while and keep an eye on it

Edited by fendertele on Wednesday 21st February 18:23

[GreenV8S]

You absolutely need to get an experienced driver familiar with this type of car to go for a drive with you, experience the same behaviour you experience and tell you whether there is a problem and what the symptoms are. Frankly, your descriptions of what you think is wrong are utterly incomprehensible and I have no idea whether there ever was anything wrong with it or what the cause might be. I wouldn't expect anyone you take the car to to understand it any better, if this is how you're describing the problem. Don't assume that because the fuel level went down, the people working on the car road tested it and noticed the same problem you think you have and diagnosed it correctly and know how to fix it. For all you know they drove it home and spent the afternoon doing burnouts.

I'm afraid you're simply wasting time and money asking more and more people to work on the car without both you and them being clear what problem they need to fix. Of course they aren't going to turn your business away and if you're happy to throw money at them for no good reason, well they're going to keep taking it.

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

You absolutely need to get an experienced driver familiar with this type of car to go for a drive with you, experience the same behaviour you experience and tell you whether there is a problem and what the symptoms are. Frankly, your descriptions of what you think is wrong are utterly incomprehensible and I have no idea whether there ever was anything wrong with it or what the cause might be. I wouldn't expect anyone you take the car to to understand it any better, if this is how you're describing the problem. Don't assume that because the fuel level went down, the people working on the car road tested it and noticed the same problem you think you have and diagnosed it correctly and know how to fix it. For all you know they drove it home and spent the afternoon doing burnouts.

I'm afraid you're simply wasting time and money asking more and more people to work on the car without both you and them being clear what problem they need to fix. Of course they aren't going to turn your business away and if you're happy to throw money at them for no good reason, well they're going to keep taking it.

I know ?? so what options do I have ? I can only describe it how I feel it and as you said to most it doesn't make sense

I have been driving around tonight and honestly feel like driving it into a wall it's annoying me so much and I've never had it with previous cars...


As said it feels like it leans/pulls to the left but when the wheel is dead centre held it will drive to the right, when I take left corners it feels fine but when I take right corners it feels like the car is wanting to pull left hard.

Edited by fendertele on Thursday 22 February 04:48

[PositronicRay]

It doesn't sound like you'll ever be satisfied with the car.


Sell it.

[HustleRussell]

fendertele said:

I know ?? so what options do I have ? I can only describe it how I feel it and as you said to most it doesn't make sense

I have been driving around tonight and honestly feel like driving it into a wall it's annoying me so much and I've never had it with previous cars...

As said it feels like it leans/pulls to the left but when the wheel is dead centre held it will drive to the right, when I take left corners it feels fine but when I take right corners it feels like the car is wanting to pull left hard.

Stop throwing money at it. There's nothing wrong with the geometry. Unless something is wrong with the brakes or something is loose or incorrectly assembled, there is probably nothing wrong with the car.

I can only imagine that what you're experiencing is related to torque steer, varying traction across the axle due to the road surface, or road camber and there is actually no problem. The car probably has a different kind of PAS system from your previous car etc and you can't get on with it.

Find a large, flat, uniform surface. Large carpark etc. See if the car pulls one way or the other on that surface or whether it tracks straight and steers evenly there.

Better still go out in the car in the passenger seat with an experienced technician / mechanic / QA guy driving.

[Dave Brand]

Would it be cynical of me to suggest that a mechanic who's using a lot of petrol isn't necessarily "road testing" the car.

Options as I see it are:

insist on going out in the car with a mechanic & explain the problem

take the car to someone who knows what they are doing

accept that some cars do follow the camber of the road

sell it & buy a pushbike

[GreenV8S]

fendertele said:

GreenV8S said:

You absolutely need to get an experienced driver familiar with this type of car to go for a drive with you, experience the same behaviour you experience and tell you whether there is a problem and what the symptoms are.

I know ?? so what options do I have ? I can only describe it how I feel it and as you said to most it doesn't make sense

Get an experienced driver familiar with this type of car to go for a drive with you, experience the same behaviour you experience and tell you whether there is a problem and what the symptoms are.

[fendertele]

I would accept I'm not gonna be happy with the car if it wasn't for the fact it did feel good for a week or so when it was first shimmed and had new tyres on it.

When it was first shimmed I believe both back wheels were toed in and at the front was neutral.

There was no pulling and no lean at the front.

Now with the axle all of a sudden I feel the car leaning when driving in a straight line... Tyres? The fact the rear wants to go right causing a squirming?


This isn't costing me money my finance company are paying for repairs

Edited by fendertele on Thursday 22 February 13:18

[fendertele]

I would accept I'm not gonna be happy with the car if it wasn't for the fact it did feel good for a week or so when it was first shimmed and had new tyres on it.

When it was first shimmed I believe both back wheels were toed in and at the front was neutral.

The guy that shimmed it also mentioned adjusting the sub frame... So if so when the rear axle was put on would the previous sub frame work now cause any issues etc

There was no pulling and no lean at the front.

Now with the axle all of a sudden I feel the car leaning when driving in a straight line... Tyres? The fact the rear wants to go right causing a squirming?

Edited by fendertele on Thursday 22 February 13:23

[HustleRussell]

You have a print out of the current geometry on the previous page and it’s all fine. Forget geometry adjustment, it clearly isn't that.

I keep saying this could potentially be brake or assembly related but you seem to have completely ignored that each time?

As long as you are speculating about the issue we are all wasting our time as you don’t have the technical knowledge to describe the symptoms let alone accurately guess the cause- this is why you need to replicate the symptoms with somebody who knows what they’re doing in the drivers seat.

[fendertele]

HustleRussell said:

You have a print out of the current geometry on the previous page and it’s all fine. Forget geometry adjustment, it clearly isn't that.

I keep saying this could potentially be brake or assembly related but you seem to have completely ignored that each time?

As long as you are speculating about the issue we are all wasting our time as you don’t have the technical knowledge to describe the symptoms let alone accurately guess the cause- this is why you need to replicate the symptoms with somebody who knows what they’re doing in the drivers seat.

Sorry mate there was a few replies n I may have passed over it.

Brakes ? Well not sure if related but since the guy replaced my rear axle I noticed my handbrake was tighter than it had been before holds at very little clicks so don't know if he may have also been in at the brakes also..

What other parts of the assembly should I get looked at?


Forgot to mention I picked up a friend last night near end of my shift and went a drive...

We went down an old farm road that had a good bit of road crown.

First time we drove down it with road crown on my side and the car leaned a little into it.. however when I turned the car round and drove back up it so the road crowning was on my mates side it appeared to lean into it much more on his side... Felt like he was sliding into his door.

And I could feel it through my seat position as well...

But when I parked the car on flat ground the car looked perfectly fine and even.

[GreenV8S]

fendertele said:

Forgot to mention ...

'Felt like it was leaning ...', but it wasn't leaning.
'Felt like he was sliding into the door ...' but it wasn't leaning.

I appreciate that you're trying to explain what you're experiencing and this is not easy to convey, but the descriptions you're giving are making no sense at all. I suggest you stop trying to tell us what you think is wrong, get an experienced driver familiar with this type of car to drive it when you think the problem happens and tell you whether there is a problem and what the symptoms are.

To be honest, unless and until you do that, any other speculation is a waste of time

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

'Felt like it was leaning ...', but it wasn't leaning.
'Felt like he was sliding into the door ...' but it wasn't leaning.

I appreciate that you're trying to explain what you're experiencing and this is not easy to convey, but the descriptions you're giving are making no sense at all. I suggest you stop trying to tell us what you think is wrong, get an experienced driver familiar with this type of car to drive it when you think the problem happens and tell you whether there is a problem and what the symptoms are.

To be honest, unless and until you do that, any other speculation is a waste of time

well when I say its not leaning, I mean when it's parked on a flat surface there is no difference in ride height... so I don't know how it could excessively lean to one side when on a crowned road... but it does... I feel it through the seat and the passenger felt they were sliding in the door....

and as mentioned when I drove back down the same road the opposite direction, it wasn't as excessive...

I will try and switch the tyres from left to right as from back to front made no difference... if that is no good I will take it back to Seat and see what they can feel... just worried I won't be able to explain it properly to them... will keep you posted

Tbh i'm getting really good at driving this thing despite it feeling all over the place... its like the Russian roulette of cars.. when I go over this bump who knows which way the car will want to goooo... lol

[anonymous-user]

I'll ask again.

What tyres did you fit and are they all the same?

[GreenV8S]

fendertele said:

just worried I won't be able to explain it properly to them...

Don't bother trying to explain it to them. It's clear that you can't describe it in a way that makes sense. Show them the problem: get an experienced driver familiar with this type of car to drive it with you, and experience the problem. If they tell you they can feel the symptoms you're feeling and believe it is a problem they can fix, then think about having them fix it. You telling them "it feels like it is leaning but it isn't" and so on and asking them to fix it on that basis is going to get you nowhere and just waste more time and money.

[fendertele]

jsf said:

I'll ask again.

What tyres did you fit and are they all the same?

ill get back to you on the make and they are all the same.

i'm heading to wash the car I will take pics of the tyres to see how they look with make, ill also take some shots from front and rear of how the car sits to see if anything looks off... etc.