Is it alignment or something else ????

[fendertele]

Hey guys,


Hoping someone could try and figure out this feeling I'm getting while driving.

rear of the car feels solid and I can feel both the wheels connecting/sitting perfectly on the road.

but at the front end something seems to cause the feeling of the car leaning or a flat tyre at one side, and with each alignment it can switch from left to right side.

been told the geometry of the car is okay no issues with suspension... brand new tyres.. all inflated equally... and when I park the car and look at it head on neither side is sitting higher or lower... so it is purely a sensation I get when driving and the fact it can switch from side to side with each alignment readjustment tells me that it is linked to something being done during this process.

thanks for any advice.

[GreenV8S]

fendertele said:

something seems to cause the feeling ...

It's hard to make sense of the 'feeling' you describe and I wonder whether it may be in your head i.e. that you have got the idea there may be a problem and now your subconscious is trying to justify that. This is supported by the way you feel that the problem changes when you have the alignment checked - I assume the checks didn't find any significant problems with the alignment since you didn't mention them.

[stevieturbo]

More to the point....what has changed from it feeling ok before...to it not feeling ok now ?

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

It's hard to make sense of the 'feeling' you describe and I wonder whether it may be in your head i.e. that you have got the idea there may be a problem and now your subconscious is trying to justify that. This is supported by the way you feel that the problem changes when you have the alignment checked - I assume the checks didn't find any significant problems with the alignment since you didn't mention them.

Sorry I didn't go into much detail, when I initially got the car is was veering to the right when the steering wheel was held centered, after a few alignments being unable to get it right. One well respected and knowledgeable guy told me the rear needed shimmed and the front end needed camber bolts to get I back in spec.

I paid for this work and although I immediately felt a huge improvement when I was driving the car it felt like the front left had a flat tyre/lean I took it back for a second check and he asked me to centre the wheel this time and then made a few adjustments and when I drove off this time it felt like the car was now leaning/flat trye on the front right side.

So I was just wondering could too much positive camber on one side cause this sensation when driving ? even if it isn't a massive amount ? or uneven tie rod lengths ? because he is certain this car is now perfectly aligned and as I know the tyres are brand new also ( put new ones on before the work was done).

Another way I could describe the feeling is similar to when you leave the car parked up a few nights with the road crowning when you go to drive off it feels a bit flat on the side the car was leaning.

And this is most noticeable when I take roundabouts... whatever side i'm feeling the lean/flat tyre leans more on turns where as the other side feels great taking turns.

hope that gives a better idea

cheers.

Edited by fendertele on Saturday 6th January 18:20

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

It's hard to make sense of the 'feeling' you describe and I wonder whether it may be in your head i.e. that you have got the idea there may be a problem and now your subconscious is trying to justify that. This is supported by the way you feel that the problem changes when you have the alignment checked - I assume the checks didn't find any significant problems with the alignment since you didn't mention them.

Sorry I didn't go into much detail, when I initially got the car is was veering to the right when the steering wheel was held centered, after a few alignments being unable to get it right. One well respected and knowledgeable guy told me the rear needed shimmed and the front end needed camber bolts to get I back in spec.

I paid for this work and although I immediately felt a huge improvement when I was driving the car it felt like the front left had a flat tyre/lean I took it back for a second check and he asked me to centre the wheel this time and then made a few adjustments and when I drove off this time it felt like the car was now leaning/flat trye on the front right side.

So I was just wondering could too much positive camber on one side cause this sensation when driving ? even if it isn't a massive amount ? or uneven tie rod lengths ? because he is certain this car is now perfectly aligned and as I know the tyres are brand new also ( put new ones on before the work was done).

Another way I could describe the feeling is similar to when you leave the car parked up a few nights with the road crowning when you go to drive off it feels a bit flat on the side the car was leaning.

And this is most noticeable when I take roundabouts... whatever side i'm feeling the lean/flat tyre leans more on turns where as the other side feels great taking turns.

hope that gives a better idea

cheers.

Edited by fendertele on Saturday 6th January 18:23

[GreenV8S]

fendertele said:

it felt like the front left had a flat tyre/lean

made a few adjustments

it felt like the car was now leaning/flat trye on the front right side.

Your references to 'leaning' and 'flat tyre' seem to be interpretations of the symptoms and not the actual symptoms. Clearly the car wasn't actually leaning and didn't have a flat tyre. What are the actual symptoms? Also, specifically what adjustments were made which made you feel the symptoms had changed?

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

Your references to 'leaning' and 'flat tyre' seem to be interpretations of the symptoms and not the actual symptoms. Clearly the car wasn't actually leaning and didn't have a flat tyre. What are the actual symptoms? Also, specifically what adjustments were made which made you feel the symptoms had changed?

That's exactly it the car doesn't have a flat tyre nor does it sit lower/lean as when I park up the car I no longer feel it, I only feel it when driving.. I have no idea what was actually adjusted beyond he need to shim the rear and adjust the front with camber bolts, I didn't see any hunter/supertracker equipment I believe he is old school he is very well recommended as they do rally cars etc.. and when I even suggested it was off a little got very defensive.

I feel there is still a slight steer to the right but he told me that was just the torque, another thing I have noticed when I come out of a turn it feels likes the tire scuffs when straightening up.

but these things don't bother me as much as the feeling of the car not sitting evenly tire to tire when driving.

I know I sound mad but I have driven cars perfectly aligned and had no issues I have also driven cars in the past where I have felt something similar one in particular has the seem feeling at the back end and was caused by hitting the back left in a big pothole and it forever felt like the back right side was leaning/flat.

Edited by fendertele on Saturday 6th January 18:48

[fendertele]

sorry if this is sounding a bit crazy but I just know something aint quite right at the front end, I will book in with another place with the hunter setup to verify the work that's just been done and hopefully they maybe spot something just out a little bit that might get to the bottom of this.

thanks

[E-bmw]

What you need to do is to try different roads & see if this affects the feeling as from what you describe it could equally just be the road having a more/less pronounced crown.

[fendertele]

E-bmw said:

What you need to do is to try different roads & see if this affects the feeling as from what you describe it could equally just be the road having a more/less pronounced crown.

just took it a drive there and what I noticed is i'm slowing down heavily when I come to bumpy roads a lot, reason being I'm unsure how the car is going to react going over them... don't get me wrong the car is a lot better than it was before taking it to him but something just feels off and slightly unstable.

I will report back once I've taken it into a hunter 4 wheel place, I just hope that the shim work and camber bolts won't make it a problem for the next guys.

I forgot to mention he did say he was going to toe in the back for better stability cornering and I have noticed my car doesn't want to slide out at the back as much so I think the back end is bang on just that something is off at the front...

[GreenV8S]

Everything you have described so far reads like a lack of confidence in the car and not a tangible problem. Can you pin down some actual symptoms? For example does the steering pull to either side consistently when the road is flat, is the steering weight different in similar left and right corners? Just a vague feeling that something isn't right is extremely difficult to diagnose and I suspect you may end up wasting time and money having people check and recheck your suspension settings and making random changes, unless you can identify the actual symptoms you want to fix.

fendertele said:

I have noticed my car doesn't want to slide out at the back as much

What on earth does this mean? Are you actually breaking traction on the rear wheels, or is this 'wanting to slide out' another 'feeling'?

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

What on earth does this mean? Are you actually breaking traction on the rear wheels, or is this 'wanting to slide out' another 'feeling'?

on a flat motorway with the steering wheel held dead centre the car will gradually drive from the inside lane to the outside lane if I don't adjust the steering wheel... but was told this is due to torque. however when I clutch down the car still continues on the same line so not sure what to think of it.

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

What on earth does this mean? Are you actually breaking traction on the rear wheels, or is this 'wanting to slide out' another 'feeling'?

can you explain the steering weight on corners thing ?

[HustleRussell]

The alignment is either in spec or not- the hunter machine will create a print-out, did the mechanic give it to you?

Your description of the symptom isn’t great but it does sound as though something isn’t right. If we can rule out geometry that’s great. It could be the camber or castor is way off because something is bent or there’s a worn bush under there which is allowing excessive movement.

Does the brand and age of the tyres on the axles match? What about the shock absorbers and springs?

[fendertele]

HustleRussell said:

The alignment is either in spec or not- the hunter machine will create a print-out, did the mechanic give it to you?

Your description of the symptom isn’t great but it does sound as though something isn’t right. If we can rule out geometry that’s great. It could be the camber or castor is way off because something is bent or there’s a worn bush under there which is allowing excessive movement.

Does the brand and age of the tyres on the axles match? What about the shock absorbers and springs?

I bought the car brand new but from the first time I drove it it felt off.... I took it to the dealership as it is under warranty and when they supplied the print out it was still out and told me they could understand if I was unhappy with it and to bring it back.

I then got in contact with the dealer that supplied me the car asking to swap it and they wouldn't back down about exchanging it and wanted the chance to rectify it.... roll on 8000 miles and countless alignments I got the finance company involved and they offered to fix whatever needed fixed and that is when I visited the most recent guy who told me that the front was out and needed camber bolts and the that rear thrust line was off and needed shimmed.

I expected this time that the car would be driving near perfect with the work that got done and when I drove off it still felt like it was driving slightly to the right... when I questioned this he got a little defensive and told me it is the torque... he never gave a printout and I believe from what I seen in his garage he does it with old school methods as I didn't see any hunter or tracker system setup... but he came very highly recommended but for his good work he is quite expensive but as the finance guys were helping out I decided to go with him.

the car is much improved on what it was like when I brought it too him I can't argue this... but it is still out and I get the feeling it is at the front somewhere..


Sorry forgot to reply to the tyre question all 4 tyres are brand new and the same, I got them put on before he did the fixes.

Edited by fendertele on Saturday 6th January 23:46

[fendertele]

anyways cheers for help guys i'll not ramble on about it and said without proper printouts and going on how it feels it could be anything.

if he has aligned it with some old school method i'm not sure if it would be as accurate as say the hunter machine or not, but I will try seeing what it looks like on a hunter machine without them changing anything and hopefully then I can show what work he has done.

[E-bmw]

fendertele said:

on a flat motorway with the steering wheel held dead centre the car will gradually drive from the inside lane to the outside lane if I don't adjust the steering wheel... but was told this is due to torque. however when I clutch down the car still continues on the same line so not sure what to think of it.

As you say obviously that isn't due to torque steer.

IIRC the "thrust-line" of a car as standard will do exactly what you describe, so it sounds like a non-issue to me but a Hunter check/printout will confirm this.

[fendertele]

E-bmw said:

As you say obviously that isn't due to torque steer.

IIRC the "thrust-line" of a car as standard will do exactly what you describe, so it sounds like a non-issue to me but a Hunter check/printout will confirm this.

Well that was why the back was shimmed to fix the thrust line being off, so if it is then that would mean it wasn't corrected quite enough.. but I know he toed both back wheels inwards for better cornering.. he mentioned all cars should have toe inwards at the back for better stability

[E-bmw]

I will say that again.

Without a Hunter (or similar) print out to go by we all have no idea whether your alignment is at fault.

As has been said by others.

[GreenV8S]

fendertele said:

I bought the car brand new but from the first time I drove it it felt off.... I took it to the dealership as it is under warranty and when they supplied the print out it was still out and told me they could understand if I was unhappy with it and to bring it back.

What car is this? Have you driven a similar car so you know what to expect?

I still don't know what actual symptoms you have or what your geometry and tyre pressures are and how these relate to the spec and what changes were made and how they affected the symptoms. Without that information it seems pointless to speculate about possible faults you may have had or still have.

All I can say for sure is that if it's a brand new car it should have suspension exactly matching the spec and it should drive perfectly and identically to another new car of the same specification. If not, that's the supplier's problem and not yours.