Brake Pipes Anyone?

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N7GTX

Original Poster:

7,823 posts

142 months

Friday 25th January 2019
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So, muggins here got a bit carried away and bought a nice shiney X5 2005 3.0d. Good look around as best I could and the bodywork and interior looked pretty good, full BMW service history and 72 point PDI/Service booklet. Drove it home on the motorway late afternoon so next day, as you do, have a proper look.
The salesman (as they do) told us it had been "serviced" (oh yeah, oil and filter you mean) and service lights all green so recently reset. Study it all a bit more and it should have had an Inspection 2 which on this tank is quite a bit of work and expense. 111,000 miles and still on original factory fitted fuel filter. So much for BMW service history.

Anyway, off with front wheels to find brake disc measurement. Disc minimum is 28.4mm:



Noticed the front hub nuts had been re-used (a no-no) and not locked eek



Check the rear brakes, and pads good, discs at the minimum. However, just happened to notice the steel brake pipes both sides between the 2 halves of the flexi pipes to the rear calipers (this is nearside):



This all happened just before Xmas so to keep us on the road, got new front pads and discs and fitted them. Also fitted new rear pads for peace of mind (no maker's name on them so may have been cheapo). Pressed the brake pedal a few times to centralise and ensure pads set ready for braking. To ensure no leaks, pressed the pedal down and it went straight to the floor yikes So what had I done wrong? Erm, nothing. The corroded brake pipe (offside) had blown through and dumped the brake fluid on the floor. Checking the service history (all BMW by the way), the brake fluid had not been changed in 8 years (should be every 2). In the pic, just below the union is a small hole:



I now have a terse conversation with the second hand car dealer and the 'service manager' arranges to get 2 new flexi pipes. I say I will fit them as I don't trust them to do it. I also tell him I want paying for all the parts to make this car safe, roadworthy and serviceable. He starts to argue saying they inspect the car to MOT standards, not to the manual. In 2014 there was an advisory for these brake pipes! At the time of the sale, I was handed a 72 point checklist, all fields marked 'green', and the brake entry states they were checked, adjusted and inspected within parameters. Plus signed declarations saying the car had been inspected to the standards of the manual (not the MOT manual).

Anyway, as I had to have them repaired, VOSA not interested despite MOT done mid October 2018 (took them 10 days to respond). Trading Standards not interested. Police not interested (unroadworthy vehicle is criminal offence). So sent a list of the parts, all bought at trade prices, to the dealer who has............completely ignored me. Nasty letters sent recorded (signed for by them) and still..........nothing. So, one more letter then its county court time. Oh joy.

P.S. Warning! Contacted 2 BMW dealers who say if a customer does not want to pay for, say a brake fluid change or a pollen filter, they will still stamp the service book as having serviced the vehicle. Makes it all rather pointless really.




Tony1963

4,699 posts

161 months

Saturday 26th January 2019
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So much work put in AFTER buying a used car!

And to be fair, as far as I know, replacing brake fluid isn’t included in the standard service menu, it’s an add-on that there’s an extra charge for.
So it might all be down to penny pinching owners rather than BMW dealers.

Nick-ST

66 posts

139 months

Saturday 26th January 2019
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I can't see any dealer paying you to fit the parts in all honesty. You will either have to put up with them doing it or end up doing it in your own time.

Also with regards to brake fluid changes. I think pretty much every manufacturer recommend it is done every 2 years but it isn't include as part of a service. On a performance car I can see it being worthwhile, however on a diesel barge like my wifes Volvo V40. I cannot see that being worthwhile. Each time you open up the brake system you run the risk of air going in.

Tony1963

4,699 posts

161 months

Saturday 26th January 2019
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Nick-ST said:
Each time you open up the brake system you run the risk of air going in.
If the system is bled properly, air is never the problem. Moisture, however, is. But that can only really make a difference if you leave the cap of the reservoir too long.

kev b

2,708 posts

165 months

Saturday 26th January 2019
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Its simple to check brake fluid with a multimeter or a cheap tester tool but basically if the fluid is as clear as lager then its probably ok but if it looks like brown ale then it needs changing.

In theory a simple job but throw in seized bleed screws and odd procedures on some makes then it can turn nasty pretty quickly. Best not tackle the job the night before a planned long trip.

Brake pipes can be a nightmare to change, BMW 3 series anyone?

If they are pitted they need replacing sooner rather than later, however there are a number of MOT test places around here and what passes at one will fail at another, sometimes I think depending on the difficulty of the task.

Replacing brake pipes is a simple profitable job in most cases but those that wind through the underbonnet area or are inaccessibly clipped under a fuel tank are more likely to get an advisory if the garage doesn't fancy doing them......

paintman

7,669 posts

189 months

Saturday 26th January 2019
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Time to have a car inspected is before buying it.

Now we've got that out of the way.

Googling suggests that Trading Standards are the ones who prosecute garages/dealers for selling unroadworthy vehicles.
This random google result from Wigan TS gives an idea of their level of interest:
www.wigan.gov.uk/Resident/Consumer-Advice/Trading-...

The MOT doesn't measure the thickness of discs. Just being below manufacturer's recommended minimum thickness is not a reason for failure.
If the pads appear to have over 1.5mm/aren't worn to a 'wear indicator' then they aren't going to due much else with them.
I am a bit surprised that the brake pipe pictured wasn't picked up as I would consider it excessively corroded.
www.mot-testing.service.gov.uk/documents/manuals/c...

I would suggest in order to have much success at court you will need a report from an independent qualified person who will be prepared to attend court & give evidence. This will be the condition of the car at the time they inspect it so if you've replaced parts that might be difficult.


N7GTX

Original Poster:

7,823 posts

142 months

Saturday 26th January 2019
quotequote all
Yes, brake fluid is an add on and why some owners wont pay for it. Tight gits.
The brake fluid was tested with one of those testers that heats up the fluid and was just within boiling point spec. However, you have to remember that the fluid in the reservoir does not do any work and the fluid at the caliper cannot be tested.

Yes what happens at Wigan Trading standards is far removed from west Yorkshire. Been here before with them a few years ago so shouldn't have been surprised at their stance. On that occasion they apologised for not taking more direct action after I had been to the county court and dealer ordered to pay for all the parts I had been obliged to fit. He didn't pay so bailiff employed who recovered all the costs plus a lot of interest.

Yes, I'm aware of MOT standards and know that being below minimum thickness is not a reason for a fail. But they have supplied a 72 point check list that clearly states the brakes have been inspected and checked within parameters. I take that to mean they removed the wheels and measured the discs and pads?

The brake pipes were flagged as an advisory in 2014 so you'd think the MOT tester and the inspecting mechanic would notice this?

It was unfortunate that this all happened over the Xmas period when most places are closed plus the driving holiday that would have cost a lot of money to cancel so late on. Oh well.....

Edited by N7GTX on Saturday 26th January 11:29

stevieturbo

17,229 posts

246 months

Saturday 26th January 2019
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14 day cooling off period after such a purchase ? Take the car back.

or do has others have done, and have it signwrited with the list of defects and stating where it was bought from.

With you driving it around like that, it might make them more understanding of their ste service. But most car dealers are crooks, they never service properly ( main dealers being the worst ), etc etc etc Although to be fair some of that is due to customers unwilling to pay to have it done properly.

Sheepshanks

32,526 posts

118 months

Saturday 26th January 2019
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The thing is - and don't take this the wrong way, as I run a late 2004 Merc - a 2005 car is 14yrs old now.

Depending on where you look, the design life of a car is 8-13yrs. You've bought a car at the end of its natural life. The only way to keep it going is to throw money at it.

Pericoloso

44,044 posts

162 months

Saturday 26th January 2019
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How do you know the fuel filter is the original ?

The replacement fitted at a dealer would look the same.....confused

Sheepshanks

32,526 posts

118 months

Saturday 26th January 2019
quotequote all
N7GTX said:
P.S. Warning! Contacted 2 BMW dealers who say if a customer does not want to pay for, say a brake fluid change or a pollen filter, they will still stamp the service book as having serviced the vehicle. Makes it all rather pointless really.
I don't know what happens now service books are electronic on newer cars, but there used to be loads of complaints on Merc forums that dealers wouldn't stamp the book unless all due work was done. People wanted to get the basic work done to keep the Merc history and preserve the Mobilo guarantee, but then use an indie for the other stuff.

As for brake fluid, it's a bit of scam in the UK - in the US it's not routinely changed.

magpie215

4,369 posts

188 months

Saturday 26th January 2019
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Inside of a brake master cylinder opened up after complete brake failure......guessing due to high moisture content of the very old brake fluid

paintman

7,669 posts

189 months

Saturday 26th January 2019
quotequote all
N7GTX said:
Yes, brake fluid is an add on and why some owners wont pay for it. Tight gits.
The brake fluid was tested with one of those testers that heats up the fluid and was just within boiling point spec. However, you have to remember that the fluid in the reservoir does not do any work and the fluid at the caliper cannot be tested.

Yes what happens at Wigan Trading standards is far removed from west Yorkshire. Been here before with them a few years ago so shouldn't have been surprised at their stance. On that occasion they apologised for not taking more direct action after I had been to the county court and dealer ordered to pay for all the parts I had been obliged to fit. He didn't pay so bailiff employed who recovered all the costs plus a lot of interest.

Yes, I'm aware of MOT standards and know that being below minimum thickness is not a reason for a fail. But they have supplied a 72 point check list that clearly states the brakes have been inspected and checked within parameters. I take that to mean they removed the wheels and measured the discs and pads?

The brake pipes were flagged as an advisory in 2014 so you'd think the MOT tester and the inspecting mechanic would notice this?

It was unfortunate that this all happened over the Xmas period when most places are closed plus the driving holiday that would have cost a lot of money to cancel so late on. Oh well.....

Edited by N7GTX on Saturday 26th January 11:29
You say you know all this & claim you have previous experience of successfully going through the courts but you appear to have learnt nothing.
.
Or was this a late night ebay purchase after more sherberts than is wise?




Edited by paintman on Saturday 26th January 22:59

GreenV8S

30,149 posts

283 months

Saturday 26th January 2019
quotequote all
Sheepshanks said:
As for brake fluid, it's a bit of scam in the UK - in the US it's not routinely changed.
Are you trying to imply that it doesn't need changing? If so, I disagree. Heat, moisture and debris from the seals all degrade it over time. I consider a brake fluid flush a routine part of a brake service.

Sheepshanks

32,526 posts

118 months

Saturday 26th January 2019
quotequote all
GreenV8S said:
Sheepshanks said:
As for brake fluid, it's a bit of scam in the UK - in the US it's not routinely changed.
Are you trying to imply that it doesn't need changing? If so, I disagree. Heat, moisture and debris from the seals all degrade it over time. I consider a brake fluid flush a routine part of a brake service.
No! But test it, and change based on the results.

It's not so much that changing it in itself is the scam, it's the price - £100 on a Merc, for example, so I imagine BMW charge similar. It takes a dealer 10 mins, and that's if they do it properly. Or at all, a VW dealer hand wrote "brake fluid change" on the service invoice as proof that it been changed.

M_A_S

1,441 posts

184 months

Sunday 27th January 2019
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You're measuring the front discs wrong. The outer lip is in the way.

steveo3002

10,493 posts

173 months

Sunday 27th January 2019
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what do you expect from a dealer that sells high milage 14 year old cars , not being a snob here but most 14 year old motors are well into being a bit of banger and you can probably find dozens of jobs need doing

sounds like you know your way around the basics ? you could have spotted these faults before buying and worked out a deal or looked elsewhere , instead you bought it and went straight home and picked it to bits

and yeah youre measuring the caliper wrong

stevieturbo

17,229 posts

246 months

Sunday 27th January 2019
quotequote all
Sheepshanks said:
No! But test it, and change based on the results.

It's not so much that changing it in itself is the scam, it's the price - £100 on a Merc, for example, so I imagine BMW charge similar. It takes a dealer 10 mins, and that's if they do it properly. Or at all, a VW dealer hand wrote "brake fluid change" on the service invoice as proof that it been changed.
test what...the reservoir only ?

Doesnt always prove anything.

And someone writing something on a service invoice means as much as a dealer service stamp in a book. Absolutely zero. It just means someone wrote something, or stamped a book.

In no way whatsoever does it mean that work was actually carried out. Which is a sad reality of many garages, especially main dealers, and perhaps an even worse reflection of any monitoring bodies who never do checks or raise prosecutions for it, given the safety implications ( and fraud of course )

N7GTX

Original Poster:

7,823 posts

142 months

Sunday 27th January 2019
quotequote all
M_A_S said:
You're measuring the front discs wrong. The outer lip is in the way.
No, there is a cut out on the calipers that allows for a lip.

N7GTX

Original Poster:

7,823 posts

142 months

Sunday 27th January 2019
quotequote all
Sheepshanks said:
The thing is - and don't take this the wrong way, as I run a late 2004 Merc - a 2005 car is 14yrs old now.

Depending on where you look, the design life of a car is 8-13yrs. You've bought a car at the end of its natural life. The only way to keep it going is to throw money at it.
Oh yes, I know that its getting on a bit (like its new owner) but the dealer produced the 72 point PDI/Service (as they call it) indicating they had checked everything and all was 'within parameters'. That plus a 6 week old MOT done elsewhere and not at their own MOT facility and they had replaced the rear wiper motor which was not working, led me to believe they were acting honestly.