Effects of incorrect camber and toe on rear of car?

Effects of incorrect camber and toe on rear of car?

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Discussion

stephen-0s370

Original Poster:

14 posts

45 months

Wednesday 10th June 2020
quotequote all
Recently bought a new vehicle and had to get the tracking/alignment done.

Initially the chap using the hunter machine input the wrong details and had it down as my car had rough road suspension when it hasn't.

It's a 68 plate Octavia vrs 245.

I took it back after I saw the mistake and he changed it to what he thought was the correct car. Unfortunately it's not and I've lost faith in the garage now as I also overheard the tyre fitters and the alignment bloke taking the piss out if me for taking it back.


The upshot of all this is that my rear toe is set at 5 degrees and should be 8

The rear camber is set at -1.09 one side and -1.18 the other. Both sides should be -1.45


Will these differences have an effect on the handling.

The car doesn't feel stable at all and feels like it's always trying to over steer.

Cheers.

Steve.

Daz_86

387 posts

185 months

Wednesday 10th June 2020
quotequote all
Incorrect alignment as you're experiencing will cause Instability and the thrust angle may be out, this will cause steering issues and may cause uneven tyre wear

Need to get it to an alignment centre who aren't a bunch of clowns and good equipment such as a hunter or beissbarth system

stephen-0s370

Original Poster:

14 posts

45 months

Wednesday 10th June 2020
quotequote all
Recently bought a new vehicle and had to get the tracking/alignment done.

Initially the chap using the hunter machine input the wrong details and had it down as my car had rough road suspension when it hasn't.

It's a 68 plate Octavia vrs 245.

I took it back after I saw the mistake and he changed it to what he thought was the correct car. Unfortunately it's not and I've lost faith in the garage now as I also overheard the tyre fitters and the alignment bloke taking the piss out if me for taking it back.


The upshot of all this is that my rear toe is set at 5 degrees and should be 8

The rear camber is set at -1.09 one side and -1.18 the other. Both sides should be -1.45


Will these differences have an effect on the handling.

The car doesn't feel stable at all and feels like it's always trying to over steer.

Cheers.

Steve.

stephen-0s370

Original Poster:

14 posts

45 months

Wednesday 10th June 2020
quotequote all
This is what it's set at .....



These are the setting it should be ......


GreenV8S

30,150 posts

283 months

Wednesday 10th June 2020
quotequote all
stephen-0s370 said:
The upshot of all this is that my rear toe is set at 5 degrees and should be 8

The rear camber is set at -1.09 one side and -1.18 the other. Both sides should be -1.45


Will these differences have an effect on the handling.

The car doesn't feel stable at all and feels like it's always trying to over steer.
Do you have the printout? I guess the toe figures you're quoting are in minutes rather than degrees. It would be easy to mix up a positive and negative value with the way you are giving individual numbers, and they have hugely different consequences.

If you haven't check the tyre pressures yet, do that. That's a far more likely cause of stability problems if the geometry is roughly right, which yours looks to be given reasonable assumptions about which numbers you're giving us.

stephen-0s370

Original Poster:

14 posts

45 months

Wednesday 10th June 2020
quotequote all
Thanks for the reply.

Tyre pressures are set as recommended by Skoda.

This is how it's set currently .....

photoupload


And these are the correct settings for the car ...


CubanPete

3,630 posts

187 months

Wednesday 10th June 2020
quotequote all
What are the symptoms? What car did you come from?

Tyres (size & brand) and tyre pressures would be my first step.

Julian Thompson

2,490 posts

237 months

Wednesday 10th June 2020
quotequote all
The settings look decent to me but sometimes the execution is the issue.

Just because a garage has some “lasers” doesn’t mean so much because we are relying on their slip plates to work properly to let things move and settle and also that the equipment is set up correctly by the operator.

In terms of what you would tend to expect, more toe in will tend to give a more stable car that doesn’t want to turn in quite as much. Bear in mind that worn stuff such as bushings can impact these settings in a dynamic sense, as the suspension moves through its range of travel and under load.

Personally I would tend to take the car to another place if you are unsure, and get them to read what’s there now blind. You can then compare to the earlier readings and see how repeatable things are.

Don’t underestimate the impact of correct tyre pressures and compounds, either.

Best of luck!

stephen-0s370

Original Poster:

14 posts

45 months

Wednesday 10th June 2020
quotequote all
Hi.

I'm comparing it to our other car which is a 16 plate Octavia vrs.

New car is a 68 plate Octavia vrs.

Both cars have the same wheels.

Both cars have same size tyres 225/40/18 all set to 35 psi as per Skoda

The 16 plate is planted on the road. Handles really well and doesn't fidget about.

New car is really unsettled and feels like it wants to over steer everywhere. I turn into a corner and the back end just rolls.

GreenV8S

30,150 posts

283 months

Wednesday 10th June 2020
quotequote all
The toe in settings are close enough to ignore. There isn't much negative camber all round but that wouldn't account for the symptoms you describe.

If those readings are accurate I think you may be better off foccusing on tyre pressures, suspension bushes and damper conditions.

Ray Luxury-Yacht

8,910 posts

215 months

Wednesday 10th June 2020
quotequote all
Whereabouts are you? If you are near / can stomach a drive down to the South Coast, it's worth taking it to our own tame wheel-alignment guru, Nick, based in Southampton. Your faith will be restored.

Thread here

stephen-0s370

Original Poster:

14 posts

45 months

Thursday 11th June 2020
quotequote all
Hi all.

Thanks for the replies

If I compare what they have set my car to and what it should be set to then the rear camber is off the scale and the toe is nearly red too.

I've checked tyre pressures again this morning and all set to correct spec for car.

It feels so unstable on the motorway. Really fidgety and any steering input makes the car feel like it has flat rear tyres and the back end wants to come round.

E-bmw

9,106 posts

151 months

Thursday 11th June 2020
quotequote all
In all of this I can see no mention of the actual tyres, what are fitted?

stephen-0s370

Original Poster:

14 posts

45 months

Thursday 11th June 2020
quotequote all
Hi mate.

Front tyres are Bridgestone potenza.

Rear tyres are brand new pirelli p zero Nero GT

All 225/40/18.

I have also swapped the wheels over from our other VRS which has Dunlop sport max rt2 all round and the feeling was exactly the same.

xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Thursday 11th June 2020
quotequote all
stephen-0s370 said:
Recently bought a new vehicle and had to get the tracking/alignment done.

Initially the chap using the hunter machine input the wrong details and had it down as my car had rough road suspension when it hasn't.

It's a 68 plate Octavia vrs 245.

I took it back after I saw the mistake and he changed it to what he thought was the correct car. Unfortunately it's not and I've lost faith in the garage now as I also overheard the tyre fitters and the alignment bloke taking the piss out if me for taking it back.


The upshot of all this is that my rear toe is set at 5 degrees and should be 8

The rear camber is set at -1.09 one side and -1.18 the other. Both sides should be -1.45


Will these differences have an effect on the handling.

The car doesn't feel stable at all and feels like it's always trying to over steer.

Cheers.

Steve.
I don't think it's in degrees at that level, it will be likely 5 minutes, 5 degrees is insane. 8 Degrees even more.


As long as both sides are roughly equal in the straight ahead, and the car drives straight then who cares.

Theory is some positive toe (ie the wheels point outwards like this \---/ would give you a more "active" feeling rear end, reducing mid corner understeer and such.

And the theory being negative toe (like this /---\ ) would create a more stable feeling car and reduce the mobility on the rear.



The alignment printout looks fine to me if I'm honest and certainly you won't notice a very small amount of toe in or out in such an understeery car.

I don't buy the "poor alignment" issue really as if you are vaugely switched on you can tell how your car is within 5 minutes of having it done and if you're not happy then you should go back.

I used £20 local tyre (independant) alignments for around 5 years and never had any issues with tyre wear. Probably had 15-16 alignments from those guys and only had to get it corrected once, when the steering wheel wasn't quite straight.

stephen-0s370

Original Poster:

14 posts

45 months

Thursday 11th June 2020
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
I don't think it's in degrees at that level, it will be likely 5 minutes, 5 degrees is insane. 8 Degrees even more.


As long as both sides are roughly equal in the straight ahead, and the car drives straight then who cares.

Theory is some positive toe (ie the wheels point outwards like this \---/ would give you a more "active" feeling rear end, reducing mid corner understeer and such.

And the theory being negative toe (like this /---\ ) would create a more stable feeling car and reduce the mobility on the rear.



The alignment printout looks fine to me if I'm honest and certainly you won't notice a very small amount of toe in or out in such an understeery car.

I don't buy the "poor alignment" issue really as if you are vaugely switched on you can tell how your car is within 5 minutes of having it done and if you're not happy then you should go back.

I used £20 local tyre (independant) alignments for around 5 years and never had any issues with tyre wear. Probably had 15-16 alignments from those guys and only had to get it corrected once, when the steering wheel wasn't quite straight.
Im not suggesting its a poor alignment, Im saying they have done it for the wrong suspension type twice now.


If you were to put my car onto a hunter alignment with the correct suspension set up the rear camber on both sides would be red and the toe would be red also.

Rear Camber should be -1.45 on mine, One side is -1.09 and the other is -1.17

The car isnt driving straight, the slighest quick steering input makes it feel like its going to swap ends.

The car feels far too lively and unsettled on the rear for me, its not a track car where I want tons of oversteer.

xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Thursday 11th June 2020
quotequote all
stephen-0s370 said:
Im not suggesting its a poor alignment, Im saying they have done it for the wrong suspension type twice now.


If you were to put my car onto a hunter alignment with the correct suspension set up the rear camber on both sides would be red and the toe would be red also.

Rear Camber should be -1.45 on mine, One side is -1.09 and the other is -1.17

The car isnt driving straight, the slighest quick steering input makes it feel like its going to swap ends.

The car feels far too lively and unsettled on the rear for me, its not a track car where I want tons of oversteer.
The rear camber will not cause that issue.

stephen-0s370

Original Poster:

14 posts

45 months

Thursday 11th June 2020
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
The rear camber will not cause that issue.
In your opinion then what do you suggest it may be?

xjay1337

15,966 posts

117 months

Thursday 11th June 2020
quotequote all
stephen-0s370 said:
xjay1337 said:
The rear camber will not cause that issue.
In your opinion then what do you suggest it may be?
It's not just my opinion, it's fact :-)

Usually that is because of toe being out of alignment.



You also are paying too much attention to "the correct alignment" based on your "suspension type" , all the suspension type does is show the "ranges" , it doesn't necessarily mean anything outside of these ranges is going to be "bad" or unstable, for example having -1.1 (roughly) negative camber on the rear will in no way affect your directional stability compared to having -1.45...

Perhaps the alignment was done badly or the machine is out of calibration or it was just "bodged" to look vaguely correct.

I would suggest you go to another alignment center and ask them.



stephen-0s370

Original Poster:

14 posts

45 months

Thursday 11th June 2020
quotequote all
Sorry I didn't mean it to sound as though I was questioning.

I'm just trying to find out that if you think the geometry is ok and within limits what would make the car feel like it is massively over steering ?

Tyre pressures fine
No damage
Nothing out of line or untoward
Wheels straight and all balanced

The front of the car feels absolutely fine ?