Orange peel removal!!

[JulesB]

Gio G said:

Is the process wet sanding down the clear coat, to get rid of the texture? Which then leaves a glass/mirror like finish?

Having looked at some information online, some experts suggest not to do this on factory paint, due to the paint being so thin. Any views on this?

The car in question is a brand new Audi A4 in daytona grey. I have seen cars worth three times mine having the same finish, which I find astonishing. Have standards dropped or is it just cost savings?

How old is the car, weeks or months? Paint fresh from manufacturer will not have fully cured, this step often takes months before the paint has fully cured. When the paint is fresh from manufacturer this is the thickest the original paint will be until you start painting on top of it.

Standards have massively slipped from the manufacturer lately, it is now more about volume than quality. Often see orange peel + paint defects in new cars now which you wouldnt of found on an old car.

[TonyHetherington]

I said, way up above somewhere, I'm not trying to out him as a charlatan, merely get him to realise the amount of work involved.

[Jaykaybi]

JulesB said:

1) How long to wash the car? 30 minutes
2) How long to prepare the car? 1 hour
3) How long to mask the car ready for polishing? 30 minutes
4) How long to wet sand the whole car, removing orange peel from each panel? N/A
5) How long to polish the whole car from matt freshly sanded, to perfect finish? Step 4+5 completed panel by panel not complete car to ensure best finish on each panel, 8 hours tops?
6) How long applying waxes/sealants? 1 hour
7) How long adding finishing touches to car (tyres dressed, windows cleaned etc.)? 20 minutes

Total time = 11 hours and 20 minutes. This was roughly the time spent on a Black 56 reg Renault Laguna Estate with two of us on the car, customer was charged £500 and left very happy

Even though with two of you that's 22 hours and 40 minutes, that still seems like extremely fast work. You must have taken a few pics of the finished job?

[Jaykaybi]

TonyHetherington said:

I said, way up above somewhere, I'm not trying to out him as a charlatan, merely get him to realise the amount of work involved.

Same here, and only because my understanding was that it takes much, much longer to achieve an acceptable result. I'm willing to graciously and humbly stand corrected, if proven wrong.

[TonyHetherington]

JulesB said:

Total time = 11 hours and 20 minutes. This was roughly the time spent on a Black 56 reg Renault Laguna Estate with two of us on the car, customer was charged £500 and left very happy

Ah ok - so two of you means you spent 22 hours 40 mins working on the car.

Nevertheless, I still suggest that would be the amount of time you could do a good multi stage polish in, let alone orange peel removal. You're obviously doing it and have happy customers - kudos to you for that.

But, do take a look at every other detailer in the country's websites and see how long they estimate for the same work, it is vastly different.

[Gio G]

JulesB said:

Gio G said:

Is the process wet sanding down the clear coat, to get rid of the texture? Which then leaves a glass/mirror like finish?

Having looked at some information online, some experts suggest not to do this on factory paint, due to the paint being so thin. Any views on this?

The car in question is a brand new Audi A4 in daytona grey. I have seen cars worth three times mine having the same finish, which I find astonishing. Have standards dropped or is it just cost savings?

How old is the car, weeks or months? Paint fresh from manufacturer will not have fully cured, this step often takes months before the paint has fully cured. When the paint is fresh from manufacturer this is the thickest the original paint will be until you start painting on top of it.

Standards have massively slipped from the manufacturer lately, it is now more about volume than quality. Often see orange peel + paint defects in new cars now which you wouldnt of found on an old car.

The car is 2 months old. Do you have any pictures of the car you did?

[JulesB]

TonyHetherington said:

Ah ok - so two of you means you spent 22 hours 40 mins working on the car.

Nevertheless, I still suggest that would be the amount of time you could do a good multi stage polish in, let alone orange peel removal. You're obviously doing it and have happy customers - kudos to you for that.

But, do take a look at every other detailer in the country's websites and see how long they estimate for the same work, it is vastly different.

no we spent 11 hours working on the car, just becuase there was two of us does not change how the clocks tick!

Im gonna have to end this conversation with you now but you work in IT with computers, you dont work in the motortrade with paintwork. As much as I appreciate your input I feel my pricing structure and quality of work has not let me down so far so I will stick to my guns!

[JulesB]

Gio G said:

The car is 2 months old. Do you have any pictures of the car you did?

Not off hand but I can get some sorted out tomorrow evening

[Jaykaybi]

Bookmarked.

[TonyHetherington]

JulesB said:

no we spent 11 hours working on the car, just becuase there was two of us does not change how the clocks tick!

Im gonna have to end this conversation with you now but you work in IT with computers, you dont work in the motortrade with paintwork. As much as I appreciate your input I feel my pricing structure and quality of work has not let me down so far so I will stick to my guns!

Let me put it differently; you spent 22 man hours working on the car. I.e. if you were charging per hour for the work, you'd charge the customer 22 man hours of work (rather than 11).

I don't work daily with paint, you're quite right, but I do have huge exposure to all of the tasks we've discussed today, which is where I base my questions.

Nevertheless, as you say you have happy customers and they seem happy with the quality of your work so clearly you are doing something very right

[Jaykaybi]

Actually, while we're waiting for Jules to come back with pics of his work (which I genuinely can't wait to see - if they're as good as his confidence suggests, I'll be booking in my car), I'll contribute something meaningful for the OP.

Gio G, the job in this link was 80 hours of tiring manual labour on the paintwork. I can tell you that for 80 hours work, the culmination of 20+ years of expertise in wet sanding, and the quality of result you'll get (and remember it's permanent), the price you'd be paying KDS to correct your A4 is in fact laughably cheap.

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.p...

KDS in the link above said:

Now getting into the reason you pay to have a professional detail, as well as the equipment needed.

First thing is to inspect the paint for flaws and but more important is to measure the paint depth to build up a map of the car's varying paint depth giving the detailer the information needed to be confident the car can have the wet sand and machine polish process.

The measurements were taken all over the cars panels to gain an average figure:

[Gio G]

Jaykaybi said:

Actually, while we're waiting for Jules to come back with pics of his work (which I genuinely can't wait to see - if they're as good as his confidence suggests, I'll be booking in my car), I'll contribute something meaningful for the OP.

Gio G, the job in this link was 80 hours of tiring manual labour on the paintwork. I can tell you that for 80 hours work, the culmination of 20+ years of expertise in wet sanding, and the quality of result you'll get (and remember it's permanent), the price you'd be paying KDS to correct your A4 is in fact laughably cheap.

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.p...

KDS in the link above said:

Now getting into the reason you pay to have a professional detail, as well as the equipment needed.

First thing is to inspect the paint for flaws and but more important is to measure the paint depth to build up a map of the car's varying paint depth giving the detailer the information needed to be confident the car can have the wet sand and machine polish process.

The measurements were taken all over the cars panels to gain an average figure:

Thanks Jaykaybi,

So what you are saying is use Kelly @ KDS? Have to admit that M3 was pretty bad, on refelction my Audi is not that bad.

[Jaykaybi]

Gio G said:

Jaykaybi said:

Actually, while we're waiting for Jules to come back with pics of his work (which I genuinely can't wait to see - if they're as good as his confidence suggests, I'll be booking in my car), I'll contribute something meaningful for the OP.

Gio G, the job in this link was 80 hours of tiring manual labour on the paintwork. I can tell you that for 80 hours work, the culmination of 20+ years of expertise in wet sanding, and the quality of result you'll get (and remember it's permanent), the price you'd be paying KDS to correct your A4 is in fact laughably cheap.

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.p...

KDS in the link above said:

Now getting into the reason you pay to have a professional detail, as well as the equipment needed.

First thing is to inspect the paint for flaws and but more important is to measure the paint depth to build up a map of the car's varying paint depth giving the detailer the information needed to be confident the car can have the wet sand and machine polish process.

The measurements were taken all over the cars panels to gain an average figure:

Thanks Jaykaybi,

So what you are saying is use Kelly @ KDS? Have to admit that M3 was pretty bad, on refelction my Audi is not that bad.

BMW are indeed probably the current worst offender but I know what your Audi's paint will look like, I've seen plenty of 'em, and I bet when it's properly inspected you'll be even more shocked and there will be at least 5 problems with it you hadn't yet even spotted yourself.

Years ago I toyed with the idea of being a detailer (I once even detailed Tony's Exige S) but after meeting Kelly at KDS I quickly learned that I didn't know the first thing about it. Ahh, what it was to be young and reckless.

Despite already having 'done' a handful of cars, being a genuine, decent kind of fellow I felt a deep sense of guilt at charging 75% of Kelly's prices when I knew I had just 3% of his knowledge, 2% of his skill and <1% of his professional tools/facilities.

I am now a customer of KDS and give my full recommendation in every regard. I've not wanted to say as much on this thread because I don't want to stifle Jules's response; I hope he does come back with pics. £300 to £600 for a full wet sand detail in a day and a half is an industry-altering claim.

Edited by Jaykaybi on Tuesday 26th June 16:40

[Gio G]

Jaykaybi said:

Gio G said:

Jaykaybi said:

Actually, while we're waiting for Jules to come back with pics of his work (which I genuinely can't wait to see - if they're as good as his confidence suggests, I'll be booking in my car), I'll contribute something meaningful for the OP.

Gio G, the job in this link was 80 hours of tiring manual labour on the paintwork. I can tell you that for 80 hours work, the culmination of 20+ years of expertise in wet sanding, and the quality of result you'll get (and remember it's permanent), the price you'd be paying KDS to correct your A4 is in fact laughably cheap.

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.p...

KDS in the link above said:

Now getting into the reason you pay to have a professional detail, as well as the equipment needed.

First thing is to inspect the paint for flaws and but more important is to measure the paint depth to build up a map of the car's varying paint depth giving the detailer the information needed to be confident the car can have the wet sand and machine polish process.

The measurements were taken all over the cars panels to gain an average figure:

Thanks Jaykaybi,

So what you are saying is use Kelly @ KDS? Have to admit that M3 was pretty bad, on refelction my Audi is not that bad.

BMW are indeed probably the current worst offender but I know what your Audi's paint will look like, I've seen plenty of 'em, and I bet when it's properly inspected you'll be even more shocked and there will be at least 5 problems with it you hadn't yet even spotted yourself.

Years ago I toyed with the idea of being a detailer (I once even detailed Tony's Exige S) but after meeting Kelly at KDS I quickly learned that I didn't know the first thing about it. Ahh, what it was to be young and reckless.

Despite already having 'done' a handful of cars, being a genuine, decent kind of fellow I felt a deep sense of guilt at charging 75% of Kelly's prices when I knew I had just 3% of his knowledge, 2% of his skill and <1% of his professional tools/facilities.

I am now a customer of KDS and give my full recommendation in every regard. I've not wanted to say as much on this thread because I don't want to stifle Jules's response; I hope he does come back with pics. £300 to £600 for a full wet sand detail in a day and a half is an industry-altering claim.

Edited by Jaykaybi on Tuesday 26th June 16:40

Thanks Jaykaybi,

I have only seen Kelly's work on the forums - I have to admit, it looks pretty amazing, however it does come with a cost, which I would need to think about..Whether to put up with a car in it's current state or have the work done.

As strange as it might seem, I quite like cleaning my own cars, just gives me a bit of escape from work and the family. It does bug me that the finish could be better. I always hark back to a black Cayenne Turbo I used to own many years. Jason Brough came and did some work on it and reminds me of those reflection shots from that M3. He got it so perfect.

[Jaykaybi]

Gio G said:

Thanks Jaykaybi,

I have only seen Kelly's work on the forums - I have to admit, it looks pretty amazing, however it does come with a cost, which I would need to think about..Whether to put up with a car in it's current state or have the work done.

As strange as it might seem, I quite like cleaning my own cars, just gives me a bit of escape from work and the family. It does bug me that the finish could be better. I always hark back to a black Cayenne Turbo I used to own many years. Jason Brough came and did some work on it and reminds me of those reflection shots from that M3. He got it so perfect.

On a brand new car that you've only just invested in, where you've still got the vast majority of your ownership ahead of you, and where the pics/first impressions when it comes to sell could make a significant difference to your final resale value, I'd say there's never been more ideal scenario to invest in the wet-sand treatment. It is, after all, a permanent effect akin to cosmetic surgery. Sure you'll pick up swirls along the way but they can be much more cheaply got rid of (or masked by something like AutoGlym SRP if you don't want to outlay the ££), as and when you please.



Best,
Jay

[Squiggs]

JulesB said:

How old is the car, weeks or months? Paint fresh from manufacturer will not have fully cured, this step often takes months before the paint has fully cured. When the paint is fresh from manufacturer this is the thickest the original paint will be until you start painting on top of it.

Standards have massively slipped from the manufacturer lately, it is now more about volume than quality. Often see orange peel + paint defects in new cars now which you wouldnt of found on an old car.

Surely even if the car is as far as owner knows only a few weeks old, the lacquer could have been applied months ago?
Manufacturers don't generally wait for an order and then get the car built and painted.

As far as time (& cost) spent on a car a guess it's all in the detail (pun intended)
I wouldn't expect a 22 man hr job to be of the same quality as an 80 hr job, and the cost obviously reflects this.

It's the same with anything you buy! You can buy a brand from the cheap end of the market and more often than not it will just about do what you bought it to do - but generally it won't do it as well as the better brand at expensive end of the market ......and this is not a new phenomenon.

To quote John Ruskin (1819-1900)

"It is unwise to pay too much, but it’s unwise to pay to little.
When you pay too much you lose a little money, that’s all.
When you pay to little you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing you bought it to do.
The common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot. It can’t be done.
If you deal with the lowest bidder, it’s as well to add something on for the risk you run.
And if you do that, you will have enough to pay for something better."

Edited by Squiggs on Tuesday 26th June 18:26

[Jaykaybi]

Squiggs said:

As far as time (& cost) spent on a car a guess it's all in the detail (pun intended)
I wouldn't expect a 22 man hr job to be of the same quality as an 80 hr job, and the cost obviously reflects this.

It's the same with anything you buy! You can buy a brand from the cheap end of the market and more often than not it will just about do what you bought it to do - but generally it won't do it as well as the better brand at expensive end of the market ......and this is not a new phenomenon.

Hi Squiggs,


I fully get what you mean but I think what Tony and I are amazed at is this: given the right tools, it takes skilled professionals (let alone me) 10 hours or more to take a full car from what's on the left to what's on the right:



Now, that's tiresome enough, but wet sanding involves VERY CAREFULLY scuffing the car up to look like this first:



The reason you have to be careful is because a) you are systematically wrecking the paintwork, and could very easily leave marks that cause an inconsistent finish and b) you only want to remove as little lacquer as possible. That part of the process alone takes feckin' ages. As you can imagine, then the polishing/refining process takes even longer...

[Squiggs]

Jaykaybi said:

Hi Squiggs,


I fully get what you mean but I think what Tony and I are amazed at is this: given the right tools, it takes skilled professionals (let alone me) 10 hours or more to take a full car from what's on the left to what's on the right:



Now, that's tiresome enough, but wet sanding involves VERY CAREFULLY scuffing the car up to look like this first:



The reason you have to be careful is because a) you are systematically wrecking the paintwork, and could very easily leave marks that cause an inconsistent finish and b) you only want to remove as little lacquer as possible. That part of the process alone takes feckin' ages. As you can imagine, then the polishing/refining process takes even longer...

I know, I know, I know

And it's always annoying when you're in an industry where time taken (should) represent a top job, which (should) represent top dollar ... and then someone comes along saying they can do the same job in a quarter of the time at a cheaper price - which can by no means be of the same quality.
But there will be a market place for both.

Edited by Squiggs on Tuesday 26th June 19:58

[TROOPER88]

http://pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f...

If it does not take you straight to page 8, that the bit you want if you want to see orange peel and the removal.

It is not a difficult process but the rub to hard; especially near edges and you WILL go through the colour.

To wet sand and polish the whole car it probably took 12 hours.

[jds32]

I find it hard to believe that people don't think an experienced painter could do the job in the time and for the price he has said? Im sure he knows how much work is involved.

People have been sucked in by the detailing world and fair play to the detailers who make the money from them.