Geely To Take Control of Lotus
Discussion
blueg33 said:
suffolk009 said:
again I'm not with the mainstream on this but I think the Evora is ghastly looking thing.
They can be difficult to photograph well, but a ghastly thing? Really? Why?Whereas I'd happily have a current Exige or early Elise in my garage.
suffolk009 said:
It's subjective I know, but to my mind the propotions are plain wrong. I think that's a problem for all mid engined 2+2s. But mostly I find the lines of the car unattractive; the slope of the nose and the width of the cars hips. And the upswept rear window line. And the shape of the headlights. And I don't like the detailing either. I agree with you about it being difficult to photograph, but I've seen a fair few in the flesh. Again, it is subjective. I just don't find it a good looking car.
Whereas I'd happily have a current Exige or early Elise in my garage.
Indeed subjective - the new machines look particularly good to my eye:Whereas I'd happily have a current Exige or early Elise in my garage.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouq0JlIjVgQ
[quote=suffolk009]
It's subjective I know, but to my mind the propotions are plain wrong. I think that's a problem for all mid engined 2+2s. But mostly I find the lines of the car unattractive; the slope of the nose and the width of the cars hips. And the upswept rear window line. And the shape of the headlights. And I don't like the detailing either. I agree with you about it being difficult to photograph, but I've seen a fair few in the flesh. Again, it is subjective. I just don't find it a good looking car.
Whereas I'd happily have a current Exige or early Elise in my garage.
[/quote
I agree its subjective everything is when it comes to looks. The wide hips are reminiscent of a Ferrari 360. the slope of the nose is IMO one of the good things especially from the drivers seat where the front quarters look very purposeful
It's subjective I know, but to my mind the propotions are plain wrong. I think that's a problem for all mid engined 2+2s. But mostly I find the lines of the car unattractive; the slope of the nose and the width of the cars hips. And the upswept rear window line. And the shape of the headlights. And I don't like the detailing either. I agree with you about it being difficult to photograph, but I've seen a fair few in the flesh. Again, it is subjective. I just don't find it a good looking car.
Whereas I'd happily have a current Exige or early Elise in my garage.
[/quote
I agree its subjective everything is when it comes to looks. The wide hips are reminiscent of a Ferrari 360. the slope of the nose is IMO one of the good things especially from the drivers seat where the front quarters look very purposeful
Sounds like a positive development IMO. Geely have been pretty good to Volvo, investing substantially (> 10 billion, that paid for a new engine family and a MQB style construction kit) and apparently leaving them enough freedom so that the products do not suffer. Results seem to follow, Geely profits are on the up, Volvo sales as well.
And apart from potential investment, there are sourcing and manufacturing opportunities in China that should help Lotus' profitability. They should also get much better access to the Chinese market. A lot of millionaires as potential customers. Sure Porsche isn't loosing sleep just yet, but if they find ~ 2000 wealthy Chinese per year they'll more than double their current volume. And I don't think this is unrealistic at all.
Another perspective: taking Geely a bit out of the picture. The fact that the much larger Volvo group could be available for co-operation soon can be positive. Much better fit than with Proton. Culture, European location, 'premium-ish' brand, global market presence, very large service network, good position in key markets (China and US). A lot of opportunities there.
For the very near future it is going to be interesting what they will do power train wise. Don't think that Geely proper have anything doing better than Euro 4 emissions which is not going to cut it in the US or EU. Volvo do everything with their 2.0 FI four pot. Depending on config that thing covers a very wide range of power, but no idea of the weight and pretty sure they are calibrated for a Diesel like power delivery. Hm.
Finally, a classic topic for any Lotus thread
-- why don't they make another giant-killing Elise and please for only a bit over MX5 money? Depends on their strategy obviously, but if there is one scenario where this could happen it's with an acquisition like this. Would mean bolting them together in China, but the car is not complex and Chinese manufacturing is *way* better than it used to be. I doubt they will touch jobs in Hethel either as they are needed to preserve the DNA and manufacture the expensive stuff.
Closing word on their current Boss. From a *customer* perspective I hope they will keep JMG on board. It's the first time I hear how he's supposed to have behaved as (unpleasant) manager. Not nice at all. But on the other hand, the outfit was, as usually, in a crisis, and he seems to understand the brand as well as have the ability to stabilise finances while at the same time do a lot from very little on the tech front of things. From the outside at least, I think he's doing all the right things.
And apart from potential investment, there are sourcing and manufacturing opportunities in China that should help Lotus' profitability. They should also get much better access to the Chinese market. A lot of millionaires as potential customers. Sure Porsche isn't loosing sleep just yet, but if they find ~ 2000 wealthy Chinese per year they'll more than double their current volume. And I don't think this is unrealistic at all.
Another perspective: taking Geely a bit out of the picture. The fact that the much larger Volvo group could be available for co-operation soon can be positive. Much better fit than with Proton. Culture, European location, 'premium-ish' brand, global market presence, very large service network, good position in key markets (China and US). A lot of opportunities there.
For the very near future it is going to be interesting what they will do power train wise. Don't think that Geely proper have anything doing better than Euro 4 emissions which is not going to cut it in the US or EU. Volvo do everything with their 2.0 FI four pot. Depending on config that thing covers a very wide range of power, but no idea of the weight and pretty sure they are calibrated for a Diesel like power delivery. Hm.
Finally, a classic topic for any Lotus thread
-- why don't they make another giant-killing Elise and please for only a bit over MX5 money? Depends on their strategy obviously, but if there is one scenario where this could happen it's with an acquisition like this. Would mean bolting them together in China, but the car is not complex and Chinese manufacturing is *way* better than it used to be. I doubt they will touch jobs in Hethel either as they are needed to preserve the DNA and manufacture the expensive stuff.Closing word on their current Boss. From a *customer* perspective I hope they will keep JMG on board. It's the first time I hear how he's supposed to have behaved as (unpleasant) manager. Not nice at all. But on the other hand, the outfit was, as usually, in a crisis, and he seems to understand the brand as well as have the ability to stabilise finances while at the same time do a lot from very little on the tech front of things. From the outside at least, I think he's doing all the right things.
I cycle past Hexagon, the London dealer, most days, and the stock is woeful.
When it first took on the Lotus dealership there was a decent collection of cars, now they have three or four Lotuses, and ten times as many Porsches.
Maybe it's a reflection of the North London market but if you rock up to look at a Lotus and the dealer doesn't seem to be committed you'll worry about service.
And maybe you'll be cross-sold into something else.
Simon
When it first took on the Lotus dealership there was a decent collection of cars, now they have three or four Lotuses, and ten times as many Porsches.
Maybe it's a reflection of the North London market but if you rock up to look at a Lotus and the dealer doesn't seem to be committed you'll worry about service.
And maybe you'll be cross-sold into something else.
Simon
simonrockman said:
I cycle past Hexagon, the London dealer, most days, and the stock is woeful.
When it first took on the Lotus dealership there was a decent collection of cars, now they have three or four Lotuses, and ten times as many Porsches.
Maybe it's a reflection of the North London market but if you rock up to look at a Lotus and the dealer doesn't seem to be committed you'll worry about service.
And maybe you'll be cross-sold into something else.
Simon
I said it when MJK was running the show, when Bahar took over, when Gales replaced him and again now - Lotus' biggest problem is public presence. McLaren, Porsche, Ferrari and all the rest invest in showcase showrooms that give potential owners that warm fuzzy feeling that unlocks wallets. Lotus have some awesome dealers, but they're stuck in the dark ages when it comes to coherent brand presence.When it first took on the Lotus dealership there was a decent collection of cars, now they have three or four Lotuses, and ten times as many Porsches.
Maybe it's a reflection of the North London market but if you rock up to look at a Lotus and the dealer doesn't seem to be committed you'll worry about service.
And maybe you'll be cross-sold into something else.
Simon
suffolk009 said:
It's subjective I know, but to my mind the propotions are plain wrong. I think that's a problem for all mid engined 2+2s. But mostly I find the lines of the car unattractive; the slope of the nose and the width of the cars hips. And the upswept rear window line. And the shape of the headlights. And I don't like the detailing either. I agree with you about it being difficult to photograph, but I've seen a fair few in the flesh. Again, it is subjective. I just don't find it a good looking car.
Whereas I'd happily have a current Exige or early Elise in my garage.
agree its a bad styling package on what is an excellent car.... stick a farrari'esque styling package on it that everyone likes not the just lotus geeks who have become accustomed to russell carrs strange contorted proportions and you have a globally attractive product.Whereas I'd happily have a current Exige or early Elise in my garage.
sex sells and the current car just isn't sexy enough to sell in big numbers. shame as its a good product.
I disagree. I think it looks great.
I am hardly a Lotus geek the Evora was my first Lotus and TBH IMO it makes things like a Cayman and an F type at the same price seem pretty "meh" and that's before you drive it.
Many other people who are not Lotus geeks appear to feel the same. It would be fair to say its get more comments such as "wow" and "that's fantastic" from passers by than any other car I have had, including a reflex purple Tuscan
I am hardly a Lotus geek the Evora was my first Lotus and TBH IMO it makes things like a Cayman and an F type at the same price seem pretty "meh" and that's before you drive it.
Many other people who are not Lotus geeks appear to feel the same. It would be fair to say its get more comments such as "wow" and "that's fantastic" from passers by than any other car I have had, including a reflex purple Tuscan
bobo said:
agree its a bad styling package on what is an excellent car.... stick a farrari'esque styling package on it that everyone likes not the just lotus geeks who have become accustomed to russell carrs strange contorted proportions and you have a globally attractive product.
sex sells and the current car just isn't sexy enough to sell in big numbers. shame as its a good product.
The 911 is horrifically proportioned, certainly far worse than the Evora, and that seems to sell OK. sex sells and the current car just isn't sexy enough to sell in big numbers. shame as its a good product.
Ive just been over to the Lotus website to have a look at the Evora because when it was first launched I liked the look of it but thought th interior was awful compared to the Porsche opposition. The website is terrible and the configuartor nothing more than colour swatches and stuff. If you search google for Lotus configurator you get taken to a dead page part of the official website. Money needs spending on promotion. They should have a configurator to match Porsche at least.
Wayoftheflower said:
I really hope they do, not withstanding the fact Toyota isn't making anything really suitable for Lotus any more what is really needed is to buy everything from the one place and actually get some consistency and hopefully economy of scale rather than parts binning across multiple big OEMs and models decades outdated.
Keep the unique alloy tub structure, plastic body and bespoke suspension and everything else should come from one source. Proton could never do that because there's no synergy at all between what they build and what Lotus do. Hopefully Geely will work better with Hethel.
You sure? What about the new 1.8l 205hp engine going in the Yaris? Sounds like a perfect recipe in the Elise to me, because let's face it, it's going to be turbo charged.Keep the unique alloy tub structure, plastic body and bespoke suspension and everything else should come from one source. Proton could never do that because there's no synergy at all between what they build and what Lotus do. Hopefully Geely will work better with Hethel.
Another post mentioned Volvo saying their next power units will be hybrid with no larger ICE than 2.0l IL4. And what's Toyota got lots of R&D in? Hybrids. So I can see a hybrid Evora going up against the likes of the BMW i8 here. Spectacular if it comes to fruition.
And my wife and I have been calling out for an affordable electic sports car. I'm sure Geely's got access to tech in this area as well as Toyota's IP that could make this happen and fly off the shelves, especially with a carbon composite tub; something similar to the 4C, but more cost effective. This could get really exciting.
As for staff treatment and the stuff the public don't see, if it's true, I think Lotus ought to be ashamed. But flip the coin, I don't envy the situation Gales was thrust into after the mad Frenchman's unsustainable antics. Being a little more forgiving instead of outright brutal doesn't cost money though. But I could bark on how that's the usual state of affairs within management in a lot of industries across the country; there's good and bad everywhere.
ChesterUK said:
You sure? What about the new 1.8l 205hp engine going in the Yaris? Sounds like a perfect recipe in the Elise to me, because let's face it, it's going to be turbo charged.
Another post mentioned Volvo saying their next power units will be hybrid with no larger ICE than 2.0l IL4. And what's Toyota got lots of R&D in? Hybrids. So I can see a hybrid Evora going up against the likes of the BMW i8 here. Spectacular if it comes to fruition.
And my wife and I have been calling out for an affordable electic sports car. I'm sure Geely's got access to tech in this area as well as Toyota's IP that could make this happen and fly off the shelves, especially with a carbon composite tub; something similar to the 4C, but more cost effective. This could get really exciting.
From what has been published in the media that 205hp 1.8 sounds a lot like Toyota borrowing back Lotus' supercharged 2ZR-FE rather than a shiney new turbo unit.Another post mentioned Volvo saying their next power units will be hybrid with no larger ICE than 2.0l IL4. And what's Toyota got lots of R&D in? Hybrids. So I can see a hybrid Evora going up against the likes of the BMW i8 here. Spectacular if it comes to fruition.
And my wife and I have been calling out for an affordable electic sports car. I'm sure Geely's got access to tech in this area as well as Toyota's IP that could make this happen and fly off the shelves, especially with a carbon composite tub; something similar to the 4C, but more cost effective. This could get really exciting.
A hybrid Evora and electric Elise could be great products, unfortunately they will require large amounts of investment and time. This could never happen under the conservative Malaysian leadership but I hope for better from Geely.
bobo said:
agree its a bad styling package on what is an excellent car.... stick a farrari'esque styling package on it that everyone likes not the just lotus geeks who have become accustomed to russell carrs strange contorted proportions and you have a globally attractive product.
sex sells and the current car just isn't sexy enough to sell in big numbers. shame as its a good product.
You couldn't be more wrong. i sat behind one for over 100 miles at the weekend and the amount of people doing a 'double take' or nudging the person they were with to point the car out was amazing. Its low, wide and curvaceous and that does 'it' for most people. Yes, its proportions are far from ideal but its still a 'supercar' in the public eyes.sex sells and the current car just isn't sexy enough to sell in big numbers. shame as its a good product.
Frimley111R said:
It is not. Lotus is tiny in comparison to most manufacturers. They simply do not have huge budgets and 100s of staff to manage their marketing.
That's true. However, in their engineering the lack of budget leads to creative solutions and innovation. In marketing, they're playing catch-up at best.As a small manufacturer they could be completely redefining their relationship with the customer. They could be using some of the latest 'big data' techniques to build a cradle to grave involvement with customers past, present and future. From the kid that uses a Lotus as his phone wallpaper through to the guy browsing the classifieds for a restoration project, they should be out there offering support, advice and 'brand presence'.
Yet we've still got the same disjointed manufacturer/dealer relationship where every client interaction with Lotus is effectively started from scratch.
Some of this is pure marketing stuff, but some of it is basic changes in business. Look how Tesla have completely upended the way you buy and maintain a car. There are some interesting possibilities about how the manufacturer manages the full life-cycle of the cars it produces (and the historic cars it has already made - Lotus' heritage and glacial depreciation of the modern cars are strengths they don't always play on).
And some of it is about making a strength from a weakness. In the London area there are just a handful of dealers - so why not deliver test drives direct to your office (in the colour and trim combo you've been looking at on the configurator) on a Friday evening ready for you to spend the weekend with a new car?
These days it's not necessarily about spending millions of pounds on a marketing campaign - that's old school in the extreme - it's about being prepared to try something radically different to deliver real value to the customer. Lotus is at a size where they should be able to contemplate the impossible when it comes to how people buy and own their cars. That's what has allowed Tesla to get as far as it has and increasingly (though slowly) it's how the mainstream manufacturers will go in future.
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