Classics dwarfed by moderns
Discussion
I think we have to accept that both Ford and Vauxhall/Opel gave up on selling Executive cars under their own brand long ago. We probably have BMW and Mercedes to thank for that.
Ford never replaced the Scorpio when production ended in 1998. It apparently took them 2 years to shift the remaining stocks.
The RWD Carlton and the Senator ranges were really combined and begat the Omega, which was never replaced when production ended in 2003.
Both companies owned premium brands which they could concentrate on in the Executive segment.
Meanwhile they stuck to family and fleet cars, such as the Cavalier > Vectra > Insignia line.
Ford never replaced the Scorpio when production ended in 1998. It apparently took them 2 years to shift the remaining stocks.
The RWD Carlton and the Senator ranges were really combined and begat the Omega, which was never replaced when production ended in 2003.
Both companies owned premium brands which they could concentrate on in the Executive segment.
Meanwhile they stuck to family and fleet cars, such as the Cavalier > Vectra > Insignia line.
Agoogy said:
I disagree, the fact smaller, lesser vehicles are shoehorned beneath it means nothing, it still occupies the same place otherwise BMW would call it something else....
unless you believe that the next Porsche 911 could/would actaully be a 5 door 7 seater?
Car makers do it because selling more expensive cars generally have a larger profit margin. So by moving the 3 Series up a market and retaining most of your customer base means more turnover and more profit.unless you believe that the next Porsche 911 could/would actaully be a 5 door 7 seater?
For example how many Golf buyers today were Golf buyers and want to be Golf buyers from yesteryear? I suspect quite a healthy percentage. But today's Golf is significantly more expensive and plush than the Golf of the 1970's.
Agoogy said:
Gone in the same way the Carlton/Senator has - no money to be made there...the reason why there are no big Renaults and big Citreons...they just don't sell...thats not to say we won't evr see their like again though...
Well there was the Citreon C6...But that aside there are BIG Fords and Vauxhalls - the Insignia and the Mondeo. You yourself say you'd change the name. Well Insignia is not the same name as Vectra....
Agoogy said:
And then Mini and Fiesta still arguably compete today, again introducing a sub market - Ka doesn't mean the Fiesta is moved 'up'...otherwise one day if one particular manufactuerer left it's vehicle naming alone and the other did not, you could have a giant test in CAR magazine of the new Fiesta, vs the 911 vs the S Class....never happens does it....its alwasy Focus/Astra/Golf....Mondeo, 3 series, A4, C class etc
You are taking it to an extreme. And ignoring the fact that car makers do actually use new names and the ones that don't usually up move the model, so name for name they still compete with the same vehicles.Agoogy said:
The Rover 200 was poorly packaged from the outset and was simply caught out by the competition...it was the begining of the end in terms of Rover's product planning and strategy...
Erm it was one of Rover's best selling cars. It was brilliantly packaged and did very well. Would you like a link to a full on article about it's development history and production success?Agoogy said:
All answered previously - each car, if it were to occupy a 'new' market sector would be renamed, why would you move the name up market?
You don't have to rename anything. Often a successful model has a good customer base, following and reputation. Also the market likes familiarity. However at other times something new and fresh is needed.e.g.
Escort to Focus - this alone goes against what you've just said. Why would they rename it if it wasn't moving the market position?
Rover 600 & 800 to Rover 75
Vauxhall Vectra to Insignia
Agoogy said:
that clearly doesn't work....
Maybe you should take a look at the price of a new Range Rover in the 1980's vs a new one today. It clearly works. While the original RR was an up market Land Rover, it was very much pitched at being highly available.The current RR is a top class luxury vehicle and commands eye watering price tags, so much so that despite being heavily involved in the Land Rover community I don't actually know a single person who owns a new full fat Range Rover.
Land Rover even introduced the Discovery model to fill the void by moving the Range Rover more up market.
Agoogy said:
If an Insignia happened to be 5 series sized would it be marketed as an Insignia - the replacement for the Vectra?
lol read your sentence back to yourself, it doesn't make sense. 
The Insignia was a "new" model name, so firstly counters your earlier argument. But you are also ignoring the fact that the MK2 Vectra moved the Vectra more up market. Which is probably why you see far less of them. Neither are 5 Series rivals, but in relative market position they are not the same as a Cavalier was.
Agoogy said:
- just imagine that the Vectra replacement happened to have grown so much in size (and price) that it now sat within the confines of the 5 series price list....who would choose that? how would it get past the bean counters and marketing people? it wouldn't, it 'sits' within the 3 series, Mondeo, Passat, A4 market, and each of them were successors of the previous generation - sometimes the name changes to promote something 'new'...sometimes they don't, that doesn't mean the lineage is broken or not there....the buying public just demand more and the manufacturers try and give it along with the necessary legislation adhering increase in size for safety and practical reasons.
I think we'll have to agree to disagree. The only thing I see is a similar naming or naming strategy on some models and makes. I do however see cars being pitched at different sectors, potential customers and sitting in a different positions within a car makers own line up, regardless of their name.300bhp/ton said:
I think we'll have to agree to disagree.
Its a shame you didn't put that at the begining..
If all cars are increasing in size at approximately the same rate, all alowing for the common legislation they must all adhere to and keeping the same respective name (changing names only as a marketing excecrise to help the public along in perceiving radical change and in most cases unshackeling from negative conotations)....in line with the rise in public income and overall rise in average wealth...
Then like for like the car operates within the same sector.
a 1970's family of 4 would choose a BMW 3, they could have chosen a Cortina, they were comparible on paper and physical size. The BMW was the percieved the more special as there were less, they were engineered better, cost a bit more like for like...
In 2010's a family of 4 would choose a.....3 series, they could choose a Mondeo, they are compariable on paper and physical size...the BMW now percieved as better....for less clear reasoning...brand value most likely.... but the point remains the same.
Despite increasing dimensions and increasing prices (which actaully may or may not be around the same if inflation is taken into account) average buyers still have the same names/sector of car to choose from.
There are exceptions which prove the rule, the Range Rover being an excellent one.
The Rover 200 was meant as a replaceemnt for the Metro...and marketed/priced as an Escort competitor....a handsome success if considered as the former....a badly packaged (as recognised in most/all road tests) failure when regarded as the latter.
300bhp/ton said:
Escort to Focus - this alone goes against what you've just said. Why would they rename it if it wasn't moving the market position?
Ford changed the name because they need to make a clean break from what the Escort represented - a cynical attempt to conform to the perceived 'class norm' at the lowest possible cost. With the Escort V the game was up thanks to better informed customers who took note of the dismal crash test performance and road tests that - unlike the polite reception that even the most notorious slackers in their respective segments enjoyed in the olden days - for the first time for a mainstream product pulled no punches, which meant the Escort nameplate had become a liability.Had the Mk5 Escord not flunked the way it did - necessitating three emergency facelifts with some very extensive re-engineering in '95 to keep it alive in the marketplace for its 7 year lifespan - the beancounters and marketeers would never had allowed the engineering department the leeway they got with the brilliant Mk1 Focus. That car was still very much aiming at the same market, only the approach was very different.
Similarly, the Toyota Auris competes in exactly the same market as the hatchback Corolla did before; it was simply an attempt to disassociate the model from the beige cardigan associations of the nameplate. Unsurprisingly that doesn't work so well when the new model shows perfect continuity in what it looks like and offers compared to the old one...
"Large" Ford Model, the Scorpio:-
Exterior Measurements MM Saloon
A Overall length 4825
B Overall width without mirrors 1760
C Overall width with mirrors 1875
D Unladen height 1388
E Wheelbase 2770
New Mondeo - replacement of Sierra etc. so mid-size hatchback - dimensions
Vehicle Dimensions
Height 1500 mm
Length 4778 mm
Wheelbase 2850mm
Width 1886 mm
Width - including mirrors 2092 mm
Weight 1567kg
What stands out is that the Mondeo is almost 200 kgs heavier than the Scorpio
Exterior Measurements MM Saloon
A Overall length 4825
B Overall width without mirrors 1760
C Overall width with mirrors 1875
D Unladen height 1388
E Wheelbase 2770
New Mondeo - replacement of Sierra etc. so mid-size hatchback - dimensions
Vehicle Dimensions
Height 1500 mm
Length 4778 mm
Wheelbase 2850mm
Width 1886 mm
Width - including mirrors 2092 mm
Weight 1567kg
What stands out is that the Mondeo is almost 200 kgs heavier than the Scorpio
300bhp/ton said:
Agoogy said:
Cavalier -Vectra - Insignia
Erm so where's the Carlton and Senator gone? I think the current Insignia far closer resembles the Senator than the Cavalier in terms of market position.Agoogy is correct with regard to model blood line.
Carlton and Senator are represented these days by the VXR8. Vauxhall only choose to bring in the sporty version of this model as part of the VXR brand as they know the price for the base models would not sell for the price they import compared to competition. As you highlight growth of the smaller model means they also don't have to.
Edited by NotNormal on Tuesday 20th November 13:46
lowdrag said:
"Large" Ford Model, the Scorpio:-
Exterior Measurements MM Saloon
A Overall length 4825
B Overall width without mirrors 1760
C Overall width with mirrors 1875
D Unladen height 1388
E Wheelbase 2770
New Mondeo - replacement of Sierra etc. so mid-size hatchback - dimensions
Vehicle Dimensions
Height 1500 mm
Length 4778 mm
Wheelbase 2850mm
Width 1886 mm
Width - including mirrors 2092 mm
Weight 1567kg
What stands out is that the Mondeo is almost 200 kgs heavier than the Scorpio
The current Mondeo has nothing to do with the Sierra and is not a replacement for it in any shape or form. It's Ford's current flagship model and the biggest car they sell in the UK. Also the most expensive of their mainstream offerings.Exterior Measurements MM Saloon
A Overall length 4825
B Overall width without mirrors 1760
C Overall width with mirrors 1875
D Unladen height 1388
E Wheelbase 2770
New Mondeo - replacement of Sierra etc. so mid-size hatchback - dimensions
Vehicle Dimensions
Height 1500 mm
Length 4778 mm
Wheelbase 2850mm
Width 1886 mm
Width - including mirrors 2092 mm
Weight 1567kg
What stands out is that the Mondeo is almost 200 kgs heavier than the Scorpio
Oh do give it a rest (300, that is). The Mondeo is the Sierra, Insignia is a Cavalier and similar with Peugeot/Citroen/Renault, etc. And yes, they also cover the larger car that used to be Granada, Carlton and so on, which no longer exist in the "sub-premium" brands. And a Fiesta is still a Fiesta. Times has changed, though, with smaller cars introduced and mid-range sizes added so that the four-car range that existed many years ago is simply not there. Back in the late eighties I dated a girl who had a Fiesta, and the current squeeze also drives a Fiesta. Mk2 vs Mk6, though, so different sizes (the cars...) but the same ethos, and that's just the way it is.
Can we just get this back to a picture thread as it was intended?
Can we just get this back to a picture thread as it was intended?
AllNines said:
Oh do give it a rest (300, that is). The Mondeo is the Sierra, Insignia is a Cavalier and similar with Peugeot/Citroen/Renault, etc. And yes, they also cover the larger car that used to be Granada, Carlton and so on, which no longer exist in the "sub-premium" brands. And a Fiesta is still a Fiesta. Times has changed, though, with smaller cars introduced and mid-range sizes added so that the four-car range that existed many years ago is simply not there. Back in the late eighties I dated a girl who had a Fiesta, and the current squeeze also drives a Fiesta. Mk2 vs Mk6, though, so different sizes (the cars...) but the same ethos, and that's just the way it is.
Can we just get this back to a picture thread as it was intended?
Fine. But I still have my opinion too.Can we just get this back to a picture thread as it was intended?
As for pictures, well here's a good one showing how much smaller modern cars have gotten:
Good picture of the classic Lotus showing how the newer models are so much
The older TVR making the newer one look massive!
The newer 101 totally outsizing the older S11b....
A 420 being dwarfed by the newer bigger XJ
The obvious size increase from 3rd to 4th generation Firebirds
Yep it's true all cars are definitely getting bigger.
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