British Leyland
Discussion
brrapp said:
I agree with this, my parents replaced the Austin 1800 landcrab that I learned to drive in with a Mk1 Golf. Apart from the fact that the lime green Golf was a far cooler car for a 17 year old to run a round in, the old Austin was a far superior car than the Golf which died of terminal rust at around 7 years old in 1982 (the front suspension strut burst free of the inner wing and sprung out of the bonnet half way round a roundabout . The 1971 landcrab which had been sold to a neighbour was still going strong for years after that.
If you watch the show "The Professionals" they often end up in a scrap yard and being the show was late 70's early 80's seeing cars piled on top of each other less than 10 years old is a reminder how deadly rust was back then.My mother had a Mk1 Golf which she bought new in 1982 and traded in for a Peugeot 309 in 1988. The Golf was a horrible car which drove with the delicacy of a tractor, had loads of carburettor problems and fuel leaks and was really quite rusty when she sold it at six years old, despite being a low mileage car which was always garaged. The Peugeot was a superior car in every way - much better to drive, more comfortable, completely reliable and had no visible rust whatsoever when it was sold by my brother (who took it over from her) in the mid 1990s. He did a lot of miles in it too. I don't understand people's love for the Golf.
The trouble with BL cars was that at any given time, there were always too many cars that were better - 'buying British' was the only excuse for buying any of them.
The Allegro and Marina are popular cars to target, but they were utter rubbish and both replaced cars that were very good and worthy, even at the end of their lives (1100 and Minor 1000).
Jaguars turned out to be the most rust prone and possibly most unreliable BL product - you could hear a Series 2 XJ rust on a quiet, still night. Lovely car when 'right', what a pity. Triumph stuff was mostly crap - good ideas but the usual BL problem of being utterly incapable of building it to the required standard. The Stag and Dolomite Sprint were fine examples of cars that Toyota should have built. The carburettored 2000 however was a superbly tough car, and the Toledo was nice and simple with a character that took it above the 1300 Escort. I have a soft spot (in the head) for the 18/22 Princess a car that was a dead end from day one. But as a sales prospect, a waste of time.
"Hey Mr Stokes, you know that big 1800 that sells really slowly because it's too big, too slow and too expensive? We've had a great idea................let's replace it with something that's too big, too slow and too expensive!"
"Brilliant idea!"
Regarding Datsun. In the seventies, the now defunct/demolished Robinsons Garage in Cambridge took on a Datsun franchise. The 100A Cherry, 140J Violet, 160B and 180B Bluebirds, 240Z, 200L Laurel etc. Sales were good but the workshop was empty. After the PDI that took all of 8 minutes because every car was built to the same standard (i.e perfect), you wouldn't see the car again until it needed a service. Parts gathered dust. Their answer was to take on a Fiat franchise and that kept the workshop busy.
The Allegro and Marina are popular cars to target, but they were utter rubbish and both replaced cars that were very good and worthy, even at the end of their lives (1100 and Minor 1000).
Jaguars turned out to be the most rust prone and possibly most unreliable BL product - you could hear a Series 2 XJ rust on a quiet, still night. Lovely car when 'right', what a pity. Triumph stuff was mostly crap - good ideas but the usual BL problem of being utterly incapable of building it to the required standard. The Stag and Dolomite Sprint were fine examples of cars that Toyota should have built. The carburettored 2000 however was a superbly tough car, and the Toledo was nice and simple with a character that took it above the 1300 Escort. I have a soft spot (in the head) for the 18/22 Princess a car that was a dead end from day one. But as a sales prospect, a waste of time.
"Hey Mr Stokes, you know that big 1800 that sells really slowly because it's too big, too slow and too expensive? We've had a great idea................let's replace it with something that's too big, too slow and too expensive!"
"Brilliant idea!"
Regarding Datsun. In the seventies, the now defunct/demolished Robinsons Garage in Cambridge took on a Datsun franchise. The 100A Cherry, 140J Violet, 160B and 180B Bluebirds, 240Z, 200L Laurel etc. Sales were good but the workshop was empty. After the PDI that took all of 8 minutes because every car was built to the same standard (i.e perfect), you wouldn't see the car again until it needed a service. Parts gathered dust. Their answer was to take on a Fiat franchise and that kept the workshop busy.
i love BL cars, had many many minis over the years, still have a few but ownership of them has been spoilt by the rising values and the worry of leaving them parked anywhere.
I swopped my beautiful XJR for a Austin 1100 and half a respray on my race car, and it was a great deal.
I ended up with a tatty 2 door mk2 that is a great nippy little drive, comfy, great heater, and I can park it anywhere with no worries of it been nicked
I like it that much ive bought another that I have stripped down to a bare shell to restore properly - sure, they are worth nothing, you can buy a minter for 5 grand, but its a great classic car to own
my daily is a rover 75 estate diesel - another car that people were so rude about that you can now buy fantastic ones for peanuts
I swopped my beautiful XJR for a Austin 1100 and half a respray on my race car, and it was a great deal.
I ended up with a tatty 2 door mk2 that is a great nippy little drive, comfy, great heater, and I can park it anywhere with no worries of it been nicked
I like it that much ive bought another that I have stripped down to a bare shell to restore properly - sure, they are worth nothing, you can buy a minter for 5 grand, but its a great classic car to own
my daily is a rover 75 estate diesel - another car that people were so rude about that you can now buy fantastic ones for peanuts
Yertis said:
Well it still is called japcrap in some quarters. I've always had some kind of inexplicable antipathy to Japanese cars but must now confess to having given up with Triumph's crappy gearbox quality and fitted a Supra gearbox to the TR6.
A Lotus Excel is not a Supra in drag, although some pub bores will tell you that it is, but the Excel does benefit greatly over its predecessor the Eclat by having the drivetrain from the Supra. brrapp said:
I agree with this, my parents replaced the Austin 1800 landcrab - the old Austin was a far superior car than the Golf
Dear boy, I think you have been near the glue pot....when I read "an Austin 1800 was superior to a Golf" - I nearly fell off my elephant....oh how my sides still ache
iSore said:
The trouble with BL cars was that at any given time, there were always too many cars that were better - 'buying British' was the only excuse for buying any of them.
The Allegro and Marina are popular cars to target, but they were utter rubbish and both replaced cars that were very good and worthy, even at the end of their lives (1100 and Minor 1000).
Jaguars turned out to be the most rust prone and possibly most unreliable BL product - you could hear a Series 2 XJ rust on a quiet, still night. Lovely car when 'right', what a pity. Triumph stuff was mostly crap - good ideas but the usual BL problem of being utterly incapable of building it to the required standard. The Stag and Dolomite Sprint were fine examples of cars that Toyota should have built. The carburettored 2000 however was a superbly tough car, and the Toledo was nice and simple with a character that took it above the 1300 Escort. I have a soft spot (in the head) for the 18/22 Princess a car that was a dead end from day one. But as a sales prospect, a waste of time.
Regarding Datsun. In the seventies, the now defunct/demolished Robinsons Garage in Cambridge took on a Datsun franchise. The 100A Cherry, 140J Violet, 160B and 180B Bluebirds, 240Z, 200L Laurel etc. Sales were good but the workshop was empty. After the PDI that took all of 8 minutes because every car was built to the same standard (i.e perfect), you wouldn't see the car again until it needed a service. Parts gathered dust. Their answer was to take on a Fiat franchise and that kept the workshop busy.
Did Hallens sell Toyota's in them days? use to go in the motorbike shop in Hawthorne Way?The Allegro and Marina are popular cars to target, but they were utter rubbish and both replaced cars that were very good and worthy, even at the end of their lives (1100 and Minor 1000).
Jaguars turned out to be the most rust prone and possibly most unreliable BL product - you could hear a Series 2 XJ rust on a quiet, still night. Lovely car when 'right', what a pity. Triumph stuff was mostly crap - good ideas but the usual BL problem of being utterly incapable of building it to the required standard. The Stag and Dolomite Sprint were fine examples of cars that Toyota should have built. The carburettored 2000 however was a superbly tough car, and the Toledo was nice and simple with a character that took it above the 1300 Escort. I have a soft spot (in the head) for the 18/22 Princess a car that was a dead end from day one. But as a sales prospect, a waste of time.
Regarding Datsun. In the seventies, the now defunct/demolished Robinsons Garage in Cambridge took on a Datsun franchise. The 100A Cherry, 140J Violet, 160B and 180B Bluebirds, 240Z, 200L Laurel etc. Sales were good but the workshop was empty. After the PDI that took all of 8 minutes because every car was built to the same standard (i.e perfect), you wouldn't see the car again until it needed a service. Parts gathered dust. Their answer was to take on a Fiat franchise and that kept the workshop busy.
You do fail to mention Datsun's were made from steel about the thickness of a Rizla paper but as you say they were reliable and the radio always seemed to work in them.
As pointed out elsewhere on here regarding VW Golf's, I had the unfortunate situation where I was given a 5 year old Golf in the mid 80s and it was a total piece of crap, the Pierburg carb fitted to them had to be the worse ever.
dbdb said:
My mother had a Mk1 Golf which she bought new in 1982 and traded in for a Peugeot 309 in 1988. The Golf was a horrible car which drove with the delicacy of a tractor, had loads of carburettor problems and fuel leaks and was really quite rusty when she sold it at six years old, despite being a low mileage car which was always garaged. The Peugeot was a superior car in every way - much better to drive, more comfortable, completely reliable and had no visible rust whatsoever when it was sold by my brother (who took it over from her) in the mid 1990s. He did a lot of miles in it too. I don't understand people's love for the Golf.
You're obviously French and I don't believe you!J
So what should BL have done differently?
Better designs? Better tooling?
I have the impression that they totally ignored the overseas competition, and just assumed that their customers would buy British cars no matter what. While that worked in the UK for a while, they lost the export markets in a relative eye blink.
Better designs? Better tooling?
I have the impression that they totally ignored the overseas competition, and just assumed that their customers would buy British cars no matter what. While that worked in the UK for a while, they lost the export markets in a relative eye blink.
AW111 said:
So what should BL have done differently?
Better designs? Better tooling?
I have the impression that they totally ignored the overseas competition, and just assumed that their customers would buy British cars no matter what. While that worked in the UK for a while, they lost the export markets in a relative eye blink.
One export market that was BL's for as long as they wanted it was the North American sportscar business. They could sell as many MGs and Triumps to the American market as they could make but just threw it away. Better designs? Better tooling?
I have the impression that they totally ignored the overseas competition, and just assumed that their customers would buy British cars no matter what. While that worked in the UK for a while, they lost the export markets in a relative eye blink.
I could never understand why BL did that.
AW111 said:
So what should BL have done differently?
Better designs? Better tooling?
I have the impression that they totally ignored the overseas competition, and just assumed that their customers would buy British cars no matter what. While that worked in the UK for a while, they lost the export markets in a relative eye blink.
Watch thisBetter designs? Better tooling?
I have the impression that they totally ignored the overseas competition, and just assumed that their customers would buy British cars no matter what. While that worked in the UK for a while, they lost the export markets in a relative eye blink.
https://youtu.be/VTCfJKNE2hg
This gives you some idea. But remember how bad the french and italian cars were. In the air cadets my CO bought a new BX. We joked they must had been building it pissed as the bonnet badge was to one side. Then I noticed the bonnet badge was upside down..
Speaking of which, here is the Renault factory canteen. Half bottle of wine per employee I reckon....
Stegel said:
Probably something I shall regret owning up to here, but I represented the landlord while SAIC removed the Maxus line and then I project managed the demolition and site clearance. The sense of camaraderie among the few remaining staff when I first attended site was so tangible, as was the stunned disbelief at how things unfolded. Many of the guys had decades of BL service under their belts, and were clearly badly served by management and successive owners. There were tales, I don't know how true, of VW being interested (before the Russians, possibly earlier) in the plant (the paint shop was state of the art apparently) but the deal foundered on management greed and self-interest, leaving LDV to its fate. I was merely an undertaker, with the fate already sealed, but as a car enthusiast and serial BL owner years before I felt we were destroying history.
The paint shop was ok, but the product let them down. The s
t they punted to the dealers that had passed 'quality control' was unbelievable. Often we had vans come through with rust starting to break through from the inside out, sealant applied on the piss between panels (quite often it didn't run from top to bottom of a seal, like someone had nicked the blokes stool and he couldn't reach the top). They could be dented by the power of thought but the worst part was the body lines. They couldn't afford new tooling for the panel stamps, prototype stamps aren't as hard wearing as they're only designed to stamp x amount of panels. Well LDV couldn't afford new ones so carried on using the ones they had which meant they weren't as crisp as they should be and slowly lost their shape.Oh and there was the side loading door that fell off and broke a customers foot on a Maxus that was only a few months old...
There were some good guys at head office, but a lot couldn't give a s
t. I had an opportunity to sell 50 odd to a newspaper for deliveries, the fleet guy couldn't be bothered to get off his arse and see them with me. We were joint LDV/Fiat dealer so I spoke the Fiat guy and he came to see the customer with me and got the deal.Buying used ones from them was always a lottery, if you did it over the phone they would send you a dog so you'd have to go up there and pick your own. I remember going up there with Mutley our driver to get a tipper and a luton. The used vehicles were kept on a demolished part of the factory, we were driving out and Mutley rang me to say he could hear something bouncing around in the back of the luton and we'll pull over round the corner. He opened the back and it was stuffed full of new minibus seats
We used to get 90 days free stocking on vans (90 days before you had to pay for them), if you had a van in stock for 80 odd days you'd speak to a dealer that you were friendly with and 'transfer' it in to their stock. After a couple of days they'd 'transfer' it back in to your stock and BINGO! Another 90 days free stocking
AW111 said:
So what should BL have done differently?
Better designs? Better tooling?
I have the impression that they totally ignored the overseas competition, and just assumed that their customers would buy British cars no matter what. While that worked in the UK for a while, they lost the export markets in a relative eye blink.
The list is long:Better designs? Better tooling?
I have the impression that they totally ignored the overseas competition, and just assumed that their customers would buy British cars no matter what. While that worked in the UK for a while, they lost the export markets in a relative eye blink.
(1) Pre-nationalisation, the pursuit of short term shareholder reward that underpins too much British business should have been set aside in favour of a long term view that valued investment. Re-tooling, bigger design and testing budgets, etc.
(2) The model ranges should have been radically trimmed and competition between and within brands eliminated.
(3) The Government should not have micro managed when it was in charge (surprisingly, Thatcher's regime was worse for micro management than its Labour predecessor).
(4) The TUC should have accepted Barbara Castle's "In Place of Strife" proposals (doing this would have eliminated any need for Thatcherism, and the world would have been a very different place).
(5) Managers should have been better trained and more decisive. More engineers and fewer PR guys should have been promoted to senior positions.
(6) Entryist anti-democratic Trotskyite t
ttery in the unions should have been resisted.(7) The dealer networks should have been slimmed down and made to give a toss.
(8) Fundamentally, there should have been investment, investment, and investment.
Breadvan72 said:
AW111 said:
So what should BL have done differently?
Better designs? Better tooling?
I have the impression that they totally ignored the overseas competition, and just assumed that their customers would buy British cars no matter what. While that worked in the UK for a while, they lost the export markets in a relative eye blink.
The list is long:Better designs? Better tooling?
I have the impression that they totally ignored the overseas competition, and just assumed that their customers would buy British cars no matter what. While that worked in the UK for a while, they lost the export markets in a relative eye blink.
(1) Pre-nationalisation, the pursuit of short term shareholder reward that underpins too much British business should have been set aside in favour of a long term view that valued investment. Re-tooling, bigger design and testing budgets, etc.
(2) The model ranges should have been radically trimmed and competition between and within brands eliminated.
(3) The Government should not have micro managed when it was in charge (surprisingly, Thatcher's regime was worse for micro management than its Labour predecessor).
(4) The TUC should have accepted Barbara Castle's "In Place of Strife" proposals (doing this would have eliminated any need for Thatcherism, and the world would have been a very different place).
(5) Managers should have been better trained and more decisive. More engineers and fewer PR guys should have been promoted to senior positions.
(6) Entryist anti-democratic Trotskyite t
ttery in the unions should have been resisted.(7) The dealer networks should have been slimmed down and made to give a toss.
(8) Fundamentally, there should have been investment, investment, and investment.
I dare say there are many more reasons such as these in the archives!
Raygun said:
I might be a bit biased here as this is my car but imho some of their cars looked great.
No problem with the design (of some) BL cars. However it was the execution and the delivery of the cars to the public that was totally lacking.Based on the above thought, what about the potential world beaters BL COULD have built:
Dolly Sprint - properly sorted....?
TR8- properly sorted.....?
MGC - properly sorted.....?
Stag - properly sorted.....?
TR6 - properly sorted.....?
Wedge - properly sorted.....?
SD1 - properly sorted.....?
Makes you quite sad to see potential wasted......bit George Best really!!
Raygun said:
AW111 said:
So what should BL have done differently?
Better designs?
I might be a bit biased here as this is my car but imho some of their cars looked great.Better designs?
The perennial fault with a lot of British cars seems to have been in development:
MGA twincam, Triumph fuel injection, Stag v8, k-series head gaskets - AFAIK in each case there was nothing fundamentally wrong with the basic design.
However they were flawed as released, and management then blundered around failing to fix the problems. This all added to a reputation for crap quality.
Was it an ego thing - "there's nothing wrong with my brilliant design"?
Was QC the poor relative of the design department?
Did they even have a QC dept.?
I find it sad that what should have been minor teething problems were allowed to become major, long-running issues.
ETA It may be obvious that I have spent a fair bit of my working life in QC and product development, which probably colours my views.
Edited by AW111 on Sunday 23 April 11:06
Breadvan72 said:
There was no money for anything. BL had to spec, design, prototype, test, type approve, tool, produce and sell a car on the budget that BMW set aside for sandwiches at planning meetings.
Makes me wonder if given another ten years or so of pruning the range and investing in the remaining good stuff might have turned things around. Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff