Another mystery car
Discussion
Nothing in this photo gallery of Australian specials is close to a match, but the odd feature might inspire someone or trigger a memory to a connected car:
http://www.bucklecoupe.com.au/AustralianSpecials01...
-Ed
http://www.bucklecoupe.com.au/AustralianSpecials01...
-Ed
torquespeak said:
Nothing in this photo gallery of Australian specials is close to a match, but the odd feature might inspire someone or trigger a memory to a connected car:
http://www.bucklecoupe.com.au/AustralianSpecials01...
-Ed
Nice find, some nice looking cars in there!.http://www.bucklecoupe.com.au/AustralianSpecials01...
-Ed
texaxile said:
torquespeak said:
Nothing in this photo gallery of Australian specials is close to a match, but the odd feature might inspire someone or trigger a memory to a connected car:
http://www.bucklecoupe.com.au/AustralianSpecials01...
-Ed
Nice find, some nice looking cars in there!.http://www.bucklecoupe.com.au/AustralianSpecials01...
-Ed
While on about Australia, this is not so well-known. Nothing to do with the mystery car though.
In the 50s a graduate engineer in the UK became a very successful motorcycle scrambler riding for BSA. He was more than remarkable, and in the early 60s, while manager of a soft drinks bottling plant in London, he bought a Ginetta G4 and had incredible success racing it.
After this he went off to Australia where he not only designed his own car, which he also raced, but it was also exhibited at the 1968 Sydney International Motor Show. It featured on the front of Australian car mags. He then built up his fortune from flying crop-dusting aircraft, after which he moved back in this direction to the Channel Islands: there he designed and built sailing yachts.
Next he came back to the mainland to Cornwall around 1980. His next move was something more incredible: he purchased a WW2 Spitfire in boxes of bits at auction - perhaps the penny has dropped a as to his name now? If not, he had the crates of parts delivered to his home as two lorry loads! He spent 5 long years painstakingly rebuilding the plane, then flew it! This incredible man also found the time to restore a ME109, which he also flew. Then tragedy, he was killed in a road accident in 1988.
That Spitfire has since been renowned around the world, flown by his wife, Carolyn. He was Nick Grace.
Back to the car he built and designed and raced in Australia. It was called the Brolga, pictured with the great man alongside his car.
No apologies for the interruption. Carry on...
texaxile said:
torquespeak said:
Nothing in this photo gallery of Australian specials is close to a match, but the odd feature might inspire someone or trigger a memory to a connected car:
http://www.bucklecoupe.com.au/AustralianSpecials01...
-Ed
Nice find, some nice looking cars in there!.http://www.bucklecoupe.com.au/AustralianSpecials01...
-Ed
dandarez said:
texaxile said:
torquespeak said:
Nothing in this photo gallery of Australian specials is close to a match, but the odd feature might inspire someone or trigger a memory to a connected car:
http://www.bucklecoupe.com.au/AustralianSpecials01...
-Ed
Nice find, some nice looking cars in there!.http://www.bucklecoupe.com.au/AustralianSpecials01...
-Ed
While on about Australia, this is not so well-known. Nothing to do with the mystery car though.
In the 50s a graduate engineer in the UK became a very successful motorcycle scrambler riding for BSA. He was more than remarkable, and in the early 60s, while manager of a soft drinks bottling plant in London, he bought a Ginetta G4 and had incredible success racing it.
After this he went off to Australia where he not only designed his own car, which he also raced, but it was also exhibited at the 1968 Sydney International Motor Show. It featured on the front of Australian car mags. He then built up his fortune from flying crop-dusting aircraft, after which he moved back in this direction to the Channel Islands: there he designed and built sailing yachts.
Next he came back to the mainland to Cornwall around 1980. His next move was something more incredible: he purchased a WW2 Spitfire in boxes of bits at auction - perhaps the penny has dropped a as to his name now? If not, he had the crates of parts delivered to his home as two lorry loads! He spent 5 long years painstakingly rebuilding the plane, then flew it! This incredible man also found the time to restore a ME109, which he also flew. Then tragedy, he was killed in a road accident in 1988.
That Spitfire has since been renowned around the world, flown by his wife, Carolyn. He was Nick Grace.
Back to the car he built and designed and raced in Australia. It was called the Brolga, pictured with the great man alongside his car.
No apologies for the interruption. Carry on...
dandarez said:
_Sorted_ said:
Few more renders.
gBs[/url]
[url]
|https://thumbsnap.c
Thought I'd just look back in see if any progress... gBs[/url]
[url]
|https://thumbsnap.c
WOW!Really wasn't prepared for that. SUPERB!
Well, if rendering is correct then I was right about a Wilmot Breeden (type) boot handle (not a fuel filler).
Still thinking it could be a whole length panel encompassing the (Perspex) rear screen.
Also, 1962 and perfect shut lines, hidden boot hinges... nah, don't believe that for a one-off special.
Just a sec. Something is not adding up though, how did you decide on the rear Sorted, one area not visible at all in the photo?
What made you make a recessed panel (for reg plate) and to the right the fuel filler cap? I was thinking fuel filler on offside rear wing.
Then there's the exiting of the pee-shooter exhaust tail pipe on the left hand side (why not central, or to the right?)
I know. The penny has dropped.
It's YOUR car isn't it!
It's the Detro S (Sorted backwards) a one-off GRP special.
Edited by dandarez on Thursday 9th August 23:54
Sabra has already been eliminated but here’s one for sale for those that want one. Pictures show many similar styling cues.
https://www.octane.be/stock/sabra-gt/
https://www.octane.be/stock/sabra-gt/
EstaMcVitie said:
Can't find car, but can imagine its build would be something like this.
https://www.britishpathe.com/video/car-transformat...
I like the appearance from Dr Who at the end of the clip.https://www.britishpathe.com/video/car-transformat...
Lloyd/Borgward Arabella, see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lloyd_Arabella
Give away "Arabella" on wing of car.
John
Give away "Arabella" on wing of car.
John
Hi guys,
Very impressed by all the insight and work done so far.
My father had a copy of this book, so I've been wondering about the car for a few decades now! I always assumed, as with other unknown cars, that I would find its' identity in a book or magazine one day….
Whilst looking at the image, I became vaguely aware of something odd in the perspective. Didn't think much of it at the time, until I was looking at this photoshop version, where it became even more noticeable……
Then I realized that the rear wheel looks somehow closer to us than the front. Notice where the wheels are clipped at the bottom of the image – they are cut through at almost the same height by the edge of the picture, whilst the car is at more of an angle.
Because the photographer is quite high up – I picture him walking around with a large camera and a small stepladder – I'm pretty sure what we are seeing here is that the front track is narrower than the rear.
Above: Parallel lines show offset of wheels - note how tyre is above lower-line at front, below at rear - note also the front-wheel centre is above the line (sorry, not the clearest image I'm afraid)
threespires previously commented about a restricted turning circle, but if the front wheels are fairly inboard, this would not be the case, rather just an optical effect due to the high angle of the image.
PHOTOGRAMMETRY
As the image of the car is fairly close to being side-on, I thought I'd try some very, very basic photogrammetry (the science of making measurements from photographs).
Firstly, I printed-out the image. Then I measured the wheelbase and the diameter of the wheel discs of the mystery car. When I measured the wheel discs, they were so close to being the same size that the difference is indistinguishable by eye, so the results should not be effected by perspective distortion to any noticeable extent.
By comparing the relative sizes (wheel/wheelbase) from the photo' with those of a known car, it is possible to eliminate those vehicles that don't fit.
For Example:
The Austin-Healey Sprite/MG Midget was suggested as a possible base for the mystery car.
The Sprite Wheelbase is 2032mm and the wheel size 13 inch (330mm).
My printout gave an measured wheelbase of 85.2mm and a wheel disc of 17.8mm for the mystery car.
Divide 2032mm by 85.2mm = 23.85 (the ratio between wheelbases). This is telling us that my printout image is an approximation of a scale drawing at 1/23.85 scale (though only if the car is a Sprite, as this is where we got the 2032mm from).
If the mystery car is indeed a Sprite, then the same ratio that applies to the wheelbases will apply between the wheels of the mystery car and those of the Sprite.
So, multiply the wheeldisc size from the picture by this ratio – 17.8mm x 23.85 =424.5mm. The actual size of the wheel disc on the mystery car (though again, only if it has the same wheelbase as the Sprite).
Sprite wheels are 13 inch/330mm. Far smaller than 424.5 mm. The car is not a Sprite, unless it's wearing some very big wheels.
(Some caution is needed with this approach, because wheel sizes are based upon the size of the hole in the tyre, not the outer rim diameter of the wheel, which is slightly larger).
It would also be useful to know the exact height of the Triumph TR overrider discussed earlier by _Sorted_, to allow a comparison to the wheel disc size.
FORD/AUSTIN BASED SPECIAL?
Given the approximate size of the vehicle, it seems quite likely to be Ford 8/10 or Austin Seven based special. With that in mind, I decided to compare the image dimensions to these cars.
Not as simple as I had thought. The Ford could be a 7Y, an Anglia E04A, Prefect E93A, Model C 10 etc. I'm a little lost here, but the Anglia and prefect have equal track front and rear, so I don't think they are right.
Does anybody know whether there may be other Fords not listed above that were used for specials, or indeed whether they all have equal track dimensions? Does anybody have wheelbase and wheel sizes for any of these, some of the data I have found is contradictory?
I had more luck with the Austin Sevens. Firstly, in all cases, the front axle is narrower than the rear.
Early cars had a wheelbase of 6'3”, and wheels sizes of 26” or 19”.
Later cars 6'9”, with wheels of 19” or 17”.
None of these combinations fitted the mystery car.
Then I looked at the Austin Big Seven. Wheelbase 7'3”, wheels 16”
The Big Seven has the same wheelbase/wheel diameter ratio as the mystery car, and also a narrower front track, again like the mystery car.
Below: Austin Big Seven
Is this boot-lid (below) the same panel - up-side-down - as on the car above?
Comparing the mystery car to the Big Seven it occurred to me that, if I were building a special on this chassis, that flat, fold-down spare wheel cover on the back of the body might just make a rather good boot lid. Could this be the slightly ill-fitting panel just visible below the rear window on the mystery car?
By turning the panel up-side-down, so the hinge is now at the top/front and the latch end now forming the suitably curved trailing edge, this would give just the right curve for the rear-end of a fastback to follow. It would also leave the boot handle exactly where the mystery car has its' boot handle – somewhere behind and below the tips of the rear fins………
To this end, I found some scale drawings of the Big Seven (above, and the black 3-view illustration earlier), and scaling from the mystery car photo's, we would get something like this……….
AUSTIN BIG SEVEN
Summing-up:
The ratio of wheelbase/wheel diameter matches precisely the mystery car
Front track narrower than rear, like mystery car. (Front 1095mm, rear 1143mm on the Big Seven)
Engine would fit under the bonnet, even though taller than that in a 'baby' Seven
Antiquated 3-stud wheel mountings would preclude the use of modern wheels and could explain the after-market wheel discs – the only way to hide those utility wheels
Rear panel from saloon could be the boot lid of the mystery car
The inner wheel-arch of the Big Seven (photo below) sits quite high compared with the road wheel and could well explain the curved, tapering gap between the wheel-arch and door cut-out on the mystery car.
Below: On mystery car photo', I measured the gap between the wheelarch and door cut-out - it tapers downward
Austin Sevens, including Big Sevens, were commonly used as spacials, so good parts/upgrade availability in-period
Some of these, individually, could apply to any number of old cars, but I would suggest this Austin is a strong candidate as everything I can think to look at seems to fit so well……..
REGISTRATION
Perhaps, if we can assume it is a Big Seven, somebody would have a better chance of finding it through London registration documents that were mentioned earlier? Looking closely at the photo', it would appear to be a short number, between 3 and five characters long. I'm not sure that the year would be listed on these documents, but if it is, that could also help as the Big Seven was only built from 1938 to 1939.
It has been suggested that the last two characters are 'JJ', though I wonder whether they ar '13', but with the top of the '3' formed by two straight lines (like the top two strokes of the letter 'z'.
GULLWING DOORS
Perhaps those doors started life on a light aircraft – gullwing doors are not an uncommon solution in small aeroplanes.
I have asked Tobin Lee at impdb (the Internet Movie Plane Database) whether he would ask his members to help identify the doors. I shall keep you informed if anything comes of this, but hopefully somebody reading this can take this forward as it's well outside my area of expertise……..
IDENTITY OF BUILDER
I am convinced this car shows considerable expertise – those panel gaps are pretty impressive. Those lipped arches are very professional. That long, compound-curved bonnet seems distortion-free……..
Whoever built this has not just skills, but access to a well-equipped workshop. Enquiries regarding coachbuilders seem to have drawn a blank (so-far, at least), but I wonder whether the builder could have connections with the aviation industry (especially if those doors do turn-out to be from an aircraft) – which may explain the lack of any publicity in car circles.
Alternatively, could the car have been posed deliberately by the photographer – it's definitely front and centre, and looks as though the image was retouched below the rear wing to make the shape of the car stand-out more. Could it be parked with its' wheels on the kerb – just out of shot – so as to include it in the photo'?
Perhaps its' inclusion is some long-forgotten in joke. You know – “why don't we see if we can get Uncle Charlie's special into print”. Things were sooo different before the internet! If so, it's a pity they didn't share just a little information in that incredibly uninformative caption…….
Alternatively, was he somebody connected with commercial vehicle/ bus body building? Again, not moving in car circles…..
CHAS S DUNBAR
Chas S Dunbar, the author of the book, has a number of publications to his name – often credited as Charles S Dunbar. These are mainly on buses and trams, at least one on road haulage and another entitled TRANSPORT ODDITIES – a Swift Picture Book. This latter title was published in 1962 – if anybody has a copy, it might be worth just checking…….
I also wonder whether Mr Dunbar himself took the photograph. Also, if he's interested in 'transport oddities', I would imagine that little car would have caught his eye, even if he didn't have a book project where it would have been a more natural fit?
The book from which this picture was taken, Buses, Trolleys and Trams, was reissued around 2006, so somebody still owns and actively manages the copyright to the work and to the images. Hamlyn, the original publishers, are now part of Octopus books, so I shall make enquiries about who owns this image, and whether there might, just possibly, be any more……..
Very impressed by all the insight and work done so far.
My father had a copy of this book, so I've been wondering about the car for a few decades now! I always assumed, as with other unknown cars, that I would find its' identity in a book or magazine one day….
Whilst looking at the image, I became vaguely aware of something odd in the perspective. Didn't think much of it at the time, until I was looking at this photoshop version, where it became even more noticeable……
Then I realized that the rear wheel looks somehow closer to us than the front. Notice where the wheels are clipped at the bottom of the image – they are cut through at almost the same height by the edge of the picture, whilst the car is at more of an angle.
Because the photographer is quite high up – I picture him walking around with a large camera and a small stepladder – I'm pretty sure what we are seeing here is that the front track is narrower than the rear.
Above: Parallel lines show offset of wheels - note how tyre is above lower-line at front, below at rear - note also the front-wheel centre is above the line (sorry, not the clearest image I'm afraid)
threespires previously commented about a restricted turning circle, but if the front wheels are fairly inboard, this would not be the case, rather just an optical effect due to the high angle of the image.
PHOTOGRAMMETRY
As the image of the car is fairly close to being side-on, I thought I'd try some very, very basic photogrammetry (the science of making measurements from photographs).
Firstly, I printed-out the image. Then I measured the wheelbase and the diameter of the wheel discs of the mystery car. When I measured the wheel discs, they were so close to being the same size that the difference is indistinguishable by eye, so the results should not be effected by perspective distortion to any noticeable extent.
By comparing the relative sizes (wheel/wheelbase) from the photo' with those of a known car, it is possible to eliminate those vehicles that don't fit.
For Example:
The Austin-Healey Sprite/MG Midget was suggested as a possible base for the mystery car.
The Sprite Wheelbase is 2032mm and the wheel size 13 inch (330mm).
My printout gave an measured wheelbase of 85.2mm and a wheel disc of 17.8mm for the mystery car.
Divide 2032mm by 85.2mm = 23.85 (the ratio between wheelbases). This is telling us that my printout image is an approximation of a scale drawing at 1/23.85 scale (though only if the car is a Sprite, as this is where we got the 2032mm from).
If the mystery car is indeed a Sprite, then the same ratio that applies to the wheelbases will apply between the wheels of the mystery car and those of the Sprite.
So, multiply the wheeldisc size from the picture by this ratio – 17.8mm x 23.85 =424.5mm. The actual size of the wheel disc on the mystery car (though again, only if it has the same wheelbase as the Sprite).
Sprite wheels are 13 inch/330mm. Far smaller than 424.5 mm. The car is not a Sprite, unless it's wearing some very big wheels.
(Some caution is needed with this approach, because wheel sizes are based upon the size of the hole in the tyre, not the outer rim diameter of the wheel, which is slightly larger).
It would also be useful to know the exact height of the Triumph TR overrider discussed earlier by _Sorted_, to allow a comparison to the wheel disc size.
FORD/AUSTIN BASED SPECIAL?
Given the approximate size of the vehicle, it seems quite likely to be Ford 8/10 or Austin Seven based special. With that in mind, I decided to compare the image dimensions to these cars.
Not as simple as I had thought. The Ford could be a 7Y, an Anglia E04A, Prefect E93A, Model C 10 etc. I'm a little lost here, but the Anglia and prefect have equal track front and rear, so I don't think they are right.
Does anybody know whether there may be other Fords not listed above that were used for specials, or indeed whether they all have equal track dimensions? Does anybody have wheelbase and wheel sizes for any of these, some of the data I have found is contradictory?
I had more luck with the Austin Sevens. Firstly, in all cases, the front axle is narrower than the rear.
Early cars had a wheelbase of 6'3”, and wheels sizes of 26” or 19”.
Later cars 6'9”, with wheels of 19” or 17”.
None of these combinations fitted the mystery car.
Then I looked at the Austin Big Seven. Wheelbase 7'3”, wheels 16”
The Big Seven has the same wheelbase/wheel diameter ratio as the mystery car, and also a narrower front track, again like the mystery car.
Below: Austin Big Seven
Is this boot-lid (below) the same panel - up-side-down - as on the car above?
Comparing the mystery car to the Big Seven it occurred to me that, if I were building a special on this chassis, that flat, fold-down spare wheel cover on the back of the body might just make a rather good boot lid. Could this be the slightly ill-fitting panel just visible below the rear window on the mystery car?
By turning the panel up-side-down, so the hinge is now at the top/front and the latch end now forming the suitably curved trailing edge, this would give just the right curve for the rear-end of a fastback to follow. It would also leave the boot handle exactly where the mystery car has its' boot handle – somewhere behind and below the tips of the rear fins………
To this end, I found some scale drawings of the Big Seven (above, and the black 3-view illustration earlier), and scaling from the mystery car photo's, we would get something like this……….
AUSTIN BIG SEVEN
Summing-up:
The ratio of wheelbase/wheel diameter matches precisely the mystery car
Front track narrower than rear, like mystery car. (Front 1095mm, rear 1143mm on the Big Seven)
Engine would fit under the bonnet, even though taller than that in a 'baby' Seven
Antiquated 3-stud wheel mountings would preclude the use of modern wheels and could explain the after-market wheel discs – the only way to hide those utility wheels
Rear panel from saloon could be the boot lid of the mystery car
The inner wheel-arch of the Big Seven (photo below) sits quite high compared with the road wheel and could well explain the curved, tapering gap between the wheel-arch and door cut-out on the mystery car.
Below: On mystery car photo', I measured the gap between the wheelarch and door cut-out - it tapers downward
Austin Sevens, including Big Sevens, were commonly used as spacials, so good parts/upgrade availability in-period
Some of these, individually, could apply to any number of old cars, but I would suggest this Austin is a strong candidate as everything I can think to look at seems to fit so well……..
REGISTRATION
Perhaps, if we can assume it is a Big Seven, somebody would have a better chance of finding it through London registration documents that were mentioned earlier? Looking closely at the photo', it would appear to be a short number, between 3 and five characters long. I'm not sure that the year would be listed on these documents, but if it is, that could also help as the Big Seven was only built from 1938 to 1939.
It has been suggested that the last two characters are 'JJ', though I wonder whether they ar '13', but with the top of the '3' formed by two straight lines (like the top two strokes of the letter 'z'.
GULLWING DOORS
Perhaps those doors started life on a light aircraft – gullwing doors are not an uncommon solution in small aeroplanes.
I have asked Tobin Lee at impdb (the Internet Movie Plane Database) whether he would ask his members to help identify the doors. I shall keep you informed if anything comes of this, but hopefully somebody reading this can take this forward as it's well outside my area of expertise……..
IDENTITY OF BUILDER
I am convinced this car shows considerable expertise – those panel gaps are pretty impressive. Those lipped arches are very professional. That long, compound-curved bonnet seems distortion-free……..
Whoever built this has not just skills, but access to a well-equipped workshop. Enquiries regarding coachbuilders seem to have drawn a blank (so-far, at least), but I wonder whether the builder could have connections with the aviation industry (especially if those doors do turn-out to be from an aircraft) – which may explain the lack of any publicity in car circles.
Alternatively, could the car have been posed deliberately by the photographer – it's definitely front and centre, and looks as though the image was retouched below the rear wing to make the shape of the car stand-out more. Could it be parked with its' wheels on the kerb – just out of shot – so as to include it in the photo'?
Perhaps its' inclusion is some long-forgotten in joke. You know – “why don't we see if we can get Uncle Charlie's special into print”. Things were sooo different before the internet! If so, it's a pity they didn't share just a little information in that incredibly uninformative caption…….
Alternatively, was he somebody connected with commercial vehicle/ bus body building? Again, not moving in car circles…..
CHAS S DUNBAR
Chas S Dunbar, the author of the book, has a number of publications to his name – often credited as Charles S Dunbar. These are mainly on buses and trams, at least one on road haulage and another entitled TRANSPORT ODDITIES – a Swift Picture Book. This latter title was published in 1962 – if anybody has a copy, it might be worth just checking…….
I also wonder whether Mr Dunbar himself took the photograph. Also, if he's interested in 'transport oddities', I would imagine that little car would have caught his eye, even if he didn't have a book project where it would have been a more natural fit?
The book from which this picture was taken, Buses, Trolleys and Trams, was reissued around 2006, so somebody still owns and actively manages the copyright to the work and to the images. Hamlyn, the original publishers, are now part of Octopus books, so I shall make enquiries about who owns this image, and whether there might, just possibly, be any more……..
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