Another mystery car
Discussion
838HNK said:
Like this under my Ashley ? :-)
Could be a spaceframe, though I would think it would sit a little lower. The ride height suggests something vintage underneath - see how the bottom edge of the mystery car sill sits against the front wheel? It's fairly high-up.I think if it had a spaceframe, the seats would sit down between the rails more, rather than on top of them, as would be the case with a vintage chassis. This would have allowed the roof to sit a few inches lower.
This is all speculation, of course. All that can be said for sure is that the scale drawings I did (measured carefully from the proportions of the original image) allow enough room for about 900mm headroom, seat cushion to roof. That is assuming the seat sits on the floor, but it could easily be 50-75mm higher and still allow for a six-foot driver. Try measuring the top of your head with a tape measure (whilst sitting down, of course) and you'll get a good feel for this......
Going by the original photo' I think the flip-forward bonnet would need to be hinged at least a few inches ahead of the front wheels, so most vintage chassis would have needed an extension beyond the chassis rails.
On the Big Seven (above), there isn't much beyond the front axle-line because it has a transverse leaf spring, so it would definitely need some extra structure. A tubular spaceframe would seem a good solution......
Here, I've taken the Big Seven photo above, removed the roof and the upper part of the bulkhead, then braced and triangulated the tubular structure from the bonnet hing at the very front, back to the existing body.
I suspect that some of the original body may have been retained as the door cut-out around the rear wheel-arch seems to follow the line of the original inner-arch.
Of course, the Mercedes-Benz 300SL had gullwing doors specifically to allow for a substantial spaceframe which ran either either side of the cockpit. (The later roadster had a substantially re-engineered chassis, allowing bigger doors).
It would have been possible to fit tubular members between the bulkhead and rear arches of the Big Seven, just below the gullwing doors, which could have made the entire thing far more rigid without adding too much weight. The car would still be smaller and lighter than the saloon, and there where many tuning accessories to boost performance. Maybe those doors weren't just for show, after all?
I seem to remember reading a Pete Brock (I think) interview where he said the Cobra Daytona had a more rigid chassis than the (famously flexible) standard car due to some extra structure, and that this much improved the handling. That had a flip-forward bonnet too.....
Of course, all this speculation demonstrates is that it is possible it's a Big Seven, or something similar. Not necessarily that it is.........
The challenge with the Ashley is fitting the front of the engine under the slope of the bonnet ..
Halifax and Ballamy made aftermarket chassis for 50's and 60's specials to get over the flex issues as well ..
Any engine in the mystery car I think will have to have a low profile
This is the MGA Ashley bodied Fairthorpe
This is mine with someone else's attempt at a "power bulge" :-) !
My Ashley has 15" TR4 wheels to give you an idea of scale ...
Halifax and Ballamy made aftermarket chassis for 50's and 60's specials to get over the flex issues as well ..
Any engine in the mystery car I think will have to have a low profile
This is the MGA Ashley bodied Fairthorpe
This is mine with someone else's attempt at a "power bulge" :-) !
My Ashley has 15" TR4 wheels to give you an idea of scale ...
Edited by 838HNK on Sunday 17th February 17:12
You don't think it has two half panes for the back window do you?
It's difficult to tell exactly from the perspective, but it almost looks as if the window stops in the centre.
Looking at it again, the rear window looks as though it would have two curves (compound curves?) as it appears to slope back to front and left to right?
It's difficult to tell exactly from the perspective, but it almost looks as if the window stops in the centre.
Looking at it again, the rear window looks as though it would have two curves (compound curves?) as it appears to slope back to front and left to right?
Edited by TonyRPH on Monday 18th February 16:43
I can maybe see the rear being a split screen, with flat glass employed to get over having a slightly curve in the glass. So what we're seeing is up to the centreline. Somebody many pages back suggested the car had had a few touch ups here and there - to define the body more. This wasn't uncommon back then, with continuous tone colour prints being airbrushed for clarity here and there. As time goes on, I'm thinking was this car even there?
A car was there, but how much did it share with what we're seeing? The side of the body facing the camera seems devoid of any kind of reflection, as though it might have been 'created' ... and that rear wing seems 'strange' to me - unreal-like.
A car was there, but how much did it share with what we're seeing? The side of the body facing the camera seems devoid of any kind of reflection, as though it might have been 'created' ... and that rear wing seems 'strange' to me - unreal-like.
Right from the off it has struck me as odd that all the folks in the picture appear to be totally ignoring this really weird vehicle. Nobody is looking at it. Even the young men who you would think would show at least a passing interest.
Yes it’s the West End where strange sights are commonplace, but still.
Yes it’s the West End where strange sights are commonplace, but still.
Stigproducts said:
For a small consideration I purchased a copy of the book the picture came from. No clues at all :-( Just a book about buses with a weird car in the foreground of one of the pictures
I can't believe this thread is still running.It was bugging me when I first saw it that I'd seen the car before but I had no idea where. Only by reading through again after all this time that I realised that I had this book, and have had it for decades (and decades). I went to dig it out but couldn't find it and then realised it must have been amongst the couple of hundred I gave away about 3 months ago. Typical
[quote=Sorted]Some more work on the picture. Now much larger in size being 7418 x 2521. Boot does now seem to look like goes further rearward and lower. Interesting re door hinge area. Anyway. Enjoy.
[/quote]
The air intake above the number plate seems to form part of a ‘bulge’ which runs back into the bonnet, hadn’t noticed that before.
[/quote]
The air intake above the number plate seems to form part of a ‘bulge’ which runs back into the bonnet, hadn’t noticed that before.
For whatever reason I think there has been a huge amount of retouching around the car and possibly other parts of the picture. Mildred and Doris look like they belong in another photograph never mind the car.
For instance why can we see detail clearly through the bus windows, and other cars like that Ford Anglia at the back, yet all we can see in the window of the mystery car is a smudge that may or may not be Doris approaching in a red coat and white scarf? And if the window is shiny enough to see that we should see at least a smudge of her approaching in the bodywork.
And the lack of attention being paid to something fairly exotic, which pre-MOT era probably had some ear splitting pea-shooter exhaust as well, unless the sight of the photographer up a step ladder was even more interetsing.
We might be chasing rainbows here with a work of partial fiction. Short of conducting a seance for the late Mr Dunbar I think this will never be solved.
For instance why can we see detail clearly through the bus windows, and other cars like that Ford Anglia at the back, yet all we can see in the window of the mystery car is a smudge that may or may not be Doris approaching in a red coat and white scarf? And if the window is shiny enough to see that we should see at least a smudge of her approaching in the bodywork.
And the lack of attention being paid to something fairly exotic, which pre-MOT era probably had some ear splitting pea-shooter exhaust as well, unless the sight of the photographer up a step ladder was even more interetsing.
We might be chasing rainbows here with a work of partial fiction. Short of conducting a seance for the late Mr Dunbar I think this will never be solved.
Loose_Cannon said:
For whatever reason I think there has been a huge amount of retouching around the car and possibly other parts of the picture. Mildred and Doris look like they belong in another photograph never mind the car.
For instance why can we see detail clearly through the bus windows, and other cars like that Ford Anglia at the back, yet all we can see in the window of the mystery car is a smudge that may or may not be Doris approaching in a red coat and white scarf? And if the window is shiny enough to see that we should see at least a smudge of her approaching in the bodywork.
And the lack of attention being paid to something fairly exotic, which pre-MOT era probably had some ear splitting pea-shooter exhaust as well, unless the sight of the photographer up a step ladder was even more interetsing.
We might be chasing rainbows here with a work of partial fiction. Short of conducting a seance for the late Mr Dunbar I think this will never be solved.
With respect I think you're getting a bit carried away – there's no fiction here. Its just a pic of some buses that happened to have a one-off home-built car in it.For instance why can we see detail clearly through the bus windows, and other cars like that Ford Anglia at the back, yet all we can see in the window of the mystery car is a smudge that may or may not be Doris approaching in a red coat and white scarf? And if the window is shiny enough to see that we should see at least a smudge of her approaching in the bodywork.
And the lack of attention being paid to something fairly exotic, which pre-MOT era probably had some ear splitting pea-shooter exhaust as well, unless the sight of the photographer up a step ladder was even more interetsing.
We might be chasing rainbows here with a work of partial fiction. Short of conducting a seance for the late Mr Dunbar I think this will never be solved.
There's no way Mildred and Doris were retouched in. To do so in the days before Photoshop would be an enormously expensive undertaking, to what end.
We can't really see detail through the bus windows, at least no better than those of the mystery car.
With regard to the lack of attention, cars like this weren't particularly uncommon – to most people it was just another car. Just walk down any street in Weest London today – Lambo goes blaring down the street, no one takes any notice, even me and I'm supposed to be interested in the things.
Some fantastic work done here from both sorted and borrani72. For what its worth I don't believe there is a bonnet bulge, I do think the rear fins are part of the rear wing as I think borrani72 has suggested. I have photoshopped the image to reveal more of the reflection in the side window, I don't believe its the lady in the picture with the red coat but in fact, the driver wearing a checked type jacket with a white fur type collar. If you click on the image and click again for max size you should be able to see it more clearly.
I think Borrani72 analysis of where I probably saw this car on the way to Victoria coach station in the mid 1970's is correct, I saw it on more than one occasion parked in exactly the same place so I assume the owner must have worked nearby. I only wish now that I had got off the coach, I have been racking my memory on my visions of seeing this car, the only thing I can add is that is was driven frontways into the parking space so I remember the side profile and the back end, I remember my brain going into overload to identify what it was, I do remember my confusion over those rear wings and looking at the boot, it had two external hinges that were from memory body coloured, I also remember an external boot handle but I cannot remember if it was chrome or not.
I think Borrani72 analysis of where I probably saw this car on the way to Victoria coach station in the mid 1970's is correct, I saw it on more than one occasion parked in exactly the same place so I assume the owner must have worked nearby. I only wish now that I had got off the coach, I have been racking my memory on my visions of seeing this car, the only thing I can add is that is was driven frontways into the parking space so I remember the side profile and the back end, I remember my brain going into overload to identify what it was, I do remember my confusion over those rear wings and looking at the boot, it had two external hinges that were from memory body coloured, I also remember an external boot handle but I cannot remember if it was chrome or not.
Hi all,
you're right that there is something visible on the bonnet. Another poster - a long, long time back - noticed that the light-coloured line up the bonnet is a 'go faster' stripe, running back from the number plate and, looking closely, just visible running over the roof and tail.
Though I've never been totally convinced these stripes actually made the car faster...........
Stripes can be used to make things appear narrower, and I do wonder whether it was applied here to make the roof seem less bulky, especially from the front and rear. Not extending the stripe to the nose would restrict the visual narrowing effect more to the top of the car. The rear panel may have the same sort of treatment, the line ending at the number plate.
Or maybe someone just liked stripes......
Whatever the reason for the stripe, it helps enormously when trying to reverse engineer the shape.
There is no reason to think there is any trick photography or fakery in the image. The only retouching (I think) I can see is a small white line to stop the rear wing blending into the shadows under the rear of the car.
The position of the car does show it off quite well. I do still wonder whether it was included deliberately, as I've said before. We can't contact Charles Dunbar, though he probably has surviving family.
I did discover that he was born in 1900 and died in 1993. It therefore seems highly unlikely the car was his, as he'd be 62 at the time. But there's still the question of whether he knew the builder.
you're right that there is something visible on the bonnet. Another poster - a long, long time back - noticed that the light-coloured line up the bonnet is a 'go faster' stripe, running back from the number plate and, looking closely, just visible running over the roof and tail.
Though I've never been totally convinced these stripes actually made the car faster...........
Stripes can be used to make things appear narrower, and I do wonder whether it was applied here to make the roof seem less bulky, especially from the front and rear. Not extending the stripe to the nose would restrict the visual narrowing effect more to the top of the car. The rear panel may have the same sort of treatment, the line ending at the number plate.
Or maybe someone just liked stripes......
Whatever the reason for the stripe, it helps enormously when trying to reverse engineer the shape.
There is no reason to think there is any trick photography or fakery in the image. The only retouching (I think) I can see is a small white line to stop the rear wing blending into the shadows under the rear of the car.
The position of the car does show it off quite well. I do still wonder whether it was included deliberately, as I've said before. We can't contact Charles Dunbar, though he probably has surviving family.
I did discover that he was born in 1900 and died in 1993. It therefore seems highly unlikely the car was his, as he'd be 62 at the time. But there's still the question of whether he knew the builder.
Hi piper,
thank you. Good to hear from you. I think you mentioned going car spotting on these trips, with a notebook. You've probably already checked, but is there any chance you wrote down any details, the registration number, for instance?
When I first started looking at the original picture, my first thought was that this was probably the driver. Wearing a jacket over a white turtle-neck, perhaps. Turtle-necks were all the rage back then......
This got me thinking - Small? Blue? Gullwing? The U.N.C.L.E. organisation? Turtle-necks? It all seemed to be adding-up to something.....
However, "The Piranha Affair" proved to be a false lead.
However, back to 'our' gullwing, and looking at the window more closely, I think what is visible is sky and the building behind the camera. If the light area seen in/on the window was in-fact the road seen through the car, it would appear darker than the rest of the road surface. This is because glass, perspex etc do not transmit 100% of incident light.
By folding a printout of the image to compare the road behind the car directly with the colour of the side window, the window is a lighter colour. It appears to be sky, and building, that are being reflected.
Not sure what this building looked like. Here are two veiws of Oxford Street in-period. I did wonder whether that large canopy in the image (above the entrance of the centre building, next to the green bus in the second image) could be the same one seen to the very right-hand side of the mystery car picture. However, if Marks and Spencer's is still in the same location, then Vere Street would be the sixth turning on the left?
Piper, you say you remember central street-parking in the early 'seventies. Looks like they were starting this in the late 'sixties, so I wonder whether you might have seen the car on Oxford Street itself. According to Google Maps, that's about 2.4 miles from Victoria Station, so may fit your recollections? Was it parked there, or in a driveway - you could have seen just the rear and side either way?
Looking at the shadows visible under the buses, the sun appears to be high overhead, and coming from the left (South) and, looking at the road under the white Thames van, casting shadows toward us, suggesting the sun is to the west. The high sun would suggest summertime. The direction of the shadows cast ahead of the buses suggests some time around late afternoon/ early evening. The shadows under the buses are dark, those in front of them very faint, suggesting a bright, sunny day.
With regard to the vehicles on the main road, the side windows that are facing us are reflecting light from the north, not direct sunlight, which would be coming from the left, There is therefore less light to be reflected so it is easier to see through the glass. The reflections in the mystery car window shows reflections consistent with a bright sky, the light we see coming from the area behind the camera and between the buildings, and the reflection of the building behind the camera.
thank you. Good to hear from you. I think you mentioned going car spotting on these trips, with a notebook. You've probably already checked, but is there any chance you wrote down any details, the registration number, for instance?
When I first started looking at the original picture, my first thought was that this was probably the driver. Wearing a jacket over a white turtle-neck, perhaps. Turtle-necks were all the rage back then......
This got me thinking - Small? Blue? Gullwing? The U.N.C.L.E. organisation? Turtle-necks? It all seemed to be adding-up to something.....
However, "The Piranha Affair" proved to be a false lead.
However, back to 'our' gullwing, and looking at the window more closely, I think what is visible is sky and the building behind the camera. If the light area seen in/on the window was in-fact the road seen through the car, it would appear darker than the rest of the road surface. This is because glass, perspex etc do not transmit 100% of incident light.
By folding a printout of the image to compare the road behind the car directly with the colour of the side window, the window is a lighter colour. It appears to be sky, and building, that are being reflected.
Not sure what this building looked like. Here are two veiws of Oxford Street in-period. I did wonder whether that large canopy in the image (above the entrance of the centre building, next to the green bus in the second image) could be the same one seen to the very right-hand side of the mystery car picture. However, if Marks and Spencer's is still in the same location, then Vere Street would be the sixth turning on the left?
Piper, you say you remember central street-parking in the early 'seventies. Looks like they were starting this in the late 'sixties, so I wonder whether you might have seen the car on Oxford Street itself. According to Google Maps, that's about 2.4 miles from Victoria Station, so may fit your recollections? Was it parked there, or in a driveway - you could have seen just the rear and side either way?
Loose_Cannon said:
For whatever reason I think there has been a huge amount of retouching around the car and possibly other parts of the picture. Mildred and Doris look like they belong in another photograph never mind the car.
For instance why can we see detail clearly through the bus windows, and other cars like that Ford Anglia at the back, yet all we can see in the window of the mystery car is a smudge that may or may not be Doris approaching in a red coat and white scarf? And if the window is shiny enough to see that we should see at least a smudge of her approaching in the bodywork.
Doris, (the lady in red), would have no reflection. This is not, as you might suppose, because she is a vampire, but rather because of the angle of the car window to the camera. If you hold a mirror in front of yourself, and turn it to the angle of the car, your reflection will move to the left. Any reflection of this lady would therefore be obscured from this camera angle, as would any red reflected in the blue paint.For instance why can we see detail clearly through the bus windows, and other cars like that Ford Anglia at the back, yet all we can see in the window of the mystery car is a smudge that may or may not be Doris approaching in a red coat and white scarf? And if the window is shiny enough to see that we should see at least a smudge of her approaching in the bodywork.
Looking at the shadows visible under the buses, the sun appears to be high overhead, and coming from the left (South) and, looking at the road under the white Thames van, casting shadows toward us, suggesting the sun is to the west. The high sun would suggest summertime. The direction of the shadows cast ahead of the buses suggests some time around late afternoon/ early evening. The shadows under the buses are dark, those in front of them very faint, suggesting a bright, sunny day.
With regard to the vehicles on the main road, the side windows that are facing us are reflecting light from the north, not direct sunlight, which would be coming from the left, There is therefore less light to be reflected so it is easier to see through the glass. The reflections in the mystery car window shows reflections consistent with a bright sky, the light we see coming from the area behind the camera and between the buildings, and the reflection of the building behind the camera.
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