Morgan takes a nasty hit
Discussion
If you put forward laughable suggestions, they may be described as such, and they may be laughed at. Others can judge whether or not your points are laughable straw-clutches ("someone else had done the same thing and didn't crash"; "there was no sign or marking saying stop in the middle", etc) . I suggest that your points can so be described You and others are free to disagree.
One small bit of advice, if I may: stop saying that you are not defending the Morgan driver when that is manifestly what you are doing. It makes you look daft. Better to say "I am defending the dude, because reasons ...".
One small bit of advice, if I may: stop saying that you are not defending the Morgan driver when that is manifestly what you are doing. It makes you look daft. Better to say "I am defending the dude, because reasons ...".
yellowjack said:
Yup. I was taught that "if you make any manoeuvre which causes another road user to have to alter their course or speed, then it is highly likely that YOU have made a mistake". The key part of the statement from said instructor was "but to err is human - so take all that you can from the situation and LEARN from it".
To my mind the biggest contributing factor in the particular collision we're discussing was the Morgan driver not wanting to be the only driver to disappoint the window-licking dumbass "Youtubers" standing on the roadside, by delivering a less than spectacular exit from the site. Any instinct to drive defensively and therefore safely has been overwhelmed by a "Look AT MEEEEE!!!" moment of imbecilic showing off.
I've seen it before on such a video, on another thread on PH, with morons in supercars exiting a site into what amounted to a bank of fog, but with no adjustment of their driving behaviour down from "dry summer's day in perfect visibility" levels of throttle input. I seem to recall being abused for exhibiting common sense back on that thread too. It's almost like there's an unwillingness to even consider criticism of the drivers of "PistonHeads-worthy" cars, no matter how badly they are driving. This saddens me, because those defending the Morgan driver will likely not learn anything at all from the obvious idiocy demonstrated in the video.
It doesn't even matter that the Peugeot driver may also be a complete bell-end, driving far too quickly, or not paying enough attention to the situation developing ahead of him. This collision is (quite possibly) the perfect storm of two idiots meeting one-another, but the Peugeot is established, and committed. The Morgan is neither of these things whilst static at the exit of the show. He'd be neither of those things static in the central refuge. But instead, the driver commits fully to crossing both carriageways in one giant leap, and attempts to establish himself on the main carriageway. Poor judgement on any given day anyway, but in this instance it has serious, potentially fatal consequences.
This is pretty much the only post needed to be made on this topic.To my mind the biggest contributing factor in the particular collision we're discussing was the Morgan driver not wanting to be the only driver to disappoint the window-licking dumbass "Youtubers" standing on the roadside, by delivering a less than spectacular exit from the site. Any instinct to drive defensively and therefore safely has been overwhelmed by a "Look AT MEEEEE!!!" moment of imbecilic showing off.
I've seen it before on such a video, on another thread on PH, with morons in supercars exiting a site into what amounted to a bank of fog, but with no adjustment of their driving behaviour down from "dry summer's day in perfect visibility" levels of throttle input. I seem to recall being abused for exhibiting common sense back on that thread too. It's almost like there's an unwillingness to even consider criticism of the drivers of "PistonHeads-worthy" cars, no matter how badly they are driving. This saddens me, because those defending the Morgan driver will likely not learn anything at all from the obvious idiocy demonstrated in the video.
It doesn't even matter that the Peugeot driver may also be a complete bell-end, driving far too quickly, or not paying enough attention to the situation developing ahead of him. This collision is (quite possibly) the perfect storm of two idiots meeting one-another, but the Peugeot is established, and committed. The Morgan is neither of these things whilst static at the exit of the show. He'd be neither of those things static in the central refuge. But instead, the driver commits fully to crossing both carriageways in one giant leap, and attempts to establish himself on the main carriageway. Poor judgement on any given day anyway, but in this instance it has serious, potentially fatal consequences.
All of this arguing to-and-fro is pathetic lol.
There is absolutely no excuse for what the Morgan did - However it does happen (people pulling out) and probably was egged on by the testosterone of leaving a car meet.
That being said at first I thought "the bloody Peugeot could have done something other than honk" - Yes, probably, in hindsight.
However, in that emergency situation as a "normal" driver (not a driving god like we all are clearly
) then what else are you able to do other than stamp on the brakes and horn.I would not place any blame at all on the Peugeot driver. He does appear to be speeding but we can't prove that and speeding is not an excuse for pulling out in front of another vehicle.
If you can see someone is speeding then don't pull out on them.........
budgie smuggler said:
At the risk of being declared a w
ker by Jonno02, I'm surprised that the front end of the Pug isn't dipped more.
Nonetheless plainly the fault of the Morgan.
Hope nobody was hurt.
That's not a wker by Jonno02, I'm surprised that the front end of the Pug isn't dipped more. Nonetheless plainly the fault of the Morgan.
Hope nobody was hurt.
ker statement. Stating that "the pug's bumper isn't scraping the ground, therefore he's not braking hard enough," is. It's a good point, but if you pause the video at 0:11, you can see his front is a lot more dipped than the rear. Perhaps his pads or his tyres weren't the best, but if they're road legal, the pug has nothing to worry about. No matter the conditions, if you pull out and make another motorist brake or change direction, you are at fault.
The Morgan driver was fortunate the Peugeot driver did indeed apply his brakes hard or else the rear of the Morgan would and almost did act as a launching pad!
Stupid mistake by the Morgan driver, clearly showing off a bit leaving the function that was going on the other side of the road.
Stupid mistake by the Morgan driver, clearly showing off a bit leaving the function that was going on the other side of the road.
Morgan's fault completely. Claiming otherwise is bonkers.
I know that car meet and junction very well. Last year I was cycling down that road ( in the opposite direction from the accident ) and had a tyre blow out. I cruised to a halt right next to this classic car meet, right at the junction in the picture. It's as if my bike knew there were classic cars there and wanted me to stop ....or, more likely, one of the classics had dropped something on the road.
Anyway, it's a fast road but you can see both ways clearly. Either the Morgan driver didn't look or misjudged the oncoming car.
I know that car meet and junction very well. Last year I was cycling down that road ( in the opposite direction from the accident ) and had a tyre blow out. I cruised to a halt right next to this classic car meet, right at the junction in the picture. It's as if my bike knew there were classic cars there and wanted me to stop ....or, more likely, one of the classics had dropped something on the road.
Anyway, it's a fast road but you can see both ways clearly. Either the Morgan driver didn't look or misjudged the oncoming car.
Out of interest, this appears to have been the view afforded to the Morgan driver as he waited at the junction to move off... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3131507,-0.89096... ...and it's a road I drive regularly, as well as cycling it too.
The direction the Peugeot is coming from is a long sweeping left hander on two-lane dual carriageway down a fair old slope. Such that I can be doing 35+ mph on a bicycle at the point where the Pug hits the Morgan. Hell, I can get 'over the top' of the uphill bit at over 20mph if I put enough effort in. So many cars ignore the speed limit on that section though, to the point where it's the rule, rather than the exception, so I think the Morgan driver, if he was local, ought to be expecting higher speeds from oncoming traffic.
The Streetview pictures appear to date from 2010, when I believe the speed limit was NSL. So seventy for cars on that stretch. It was also two-lane for much further up the hill, with quite a late merge point before the return to single carriageway just prior the the reduced 30mph limit for the village.
I'm happy to be corrected, but I think the speed limit along there is now 50mph all the way to the village, and the carriageway was reduced to single lane dual carriageway before the junction from which the Morgan departs to try to improve safety and make it easier for cars turning right out of Hares Lane. Plus there are often queues through and backing up out of Harley Wintney (pedestrian crossings, reverse parking, and a couple of roundabouts contribute to the queues) so the new layout avoids cars overtaking up the hill then being left with no braking space before the back of the queue just over the brow of the hill. Lots of local roads here have seen speed limit reductions, and large sections of formerly two-lane DC have been reduced to single lane DC all along the A30 between Hartley Wintney and Basingstoke.
Knowing the road, I'd have to say that I'd be reluctant to pull out in front of anything close enough to be considered a hazard. And I'd certainly NEVER entertain the idea of crossing both carriageways in one jump.
Pug driver's view of the approach... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3139841,-0.88956...
The direction the Peugeot is coming from is a long sweeping left hander on two-lane dual carriageway down a fair old slope. Such that I can be doing 35+ mph on a bicycle at the point where the Pug hits the Morgan. Hell, I can get 'over the top' of the uphill bit at over 20mph if I put enough effort in. So many cars ignore the speed limit on that section though, to the point where it's the rule, rather than the exception, so I think the Morgan driver, if he was local, ought to be expecting higher speeds from oncoming traffic.
The Streetview pictures appear to date from 2010, when I believe the speed limit was NSL. So seventy for cars on that stretch. It was also two-lane for much further up the hill, with quite a late merge point before the return to single carriageway just prior the the reduced 30mph limit for the village.
I'm happy to be corrected, but I think the speed limit along there is now 50mph all the way to the village, and the carriageway was reduced to single lane dual carriageway before the junction from which the Morgan departs to try to improve safety and make it easier for cars turning right out of Hares Lane. Plus there are often queues through and backing up out of Harley Wintney (pedestrian crossings, reverse parking, and a couple of roundabouts contribute to the queues) so the new layout avoids cars overtaking up the hill then being left with no braking space before the back of the queue just over the brow of the hill. Lots of local roads here have seen speed limit reductions, and large sections of formerly two-lane DC have been reduced to single lane DC all along the A30 between Hartley Wintney and Basingstoke.
Knowing the road, I'd have to say that I'd be reluctant to pull out in front of anything close enough to be considered a hazard. And I'd certainly NEVER entertain the idea of crossing both carriageways in one jump.
Pug driver's view of the approach... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3139841,-0.88956...
Breadvan72 said:
I infer that you are not a Millennial, as the technology of the quote button has confounded you! I become an INSANELY FURIOUS RANTING RAGE MONSTER when someone quotes me and attributes to me words that I did not type (which is what you have done above) but you get a pass on the basis of being, I assume, a techno-feared old dude like what I am.
Having said that, please learn how to use the quote button, chap.
PS: Also, old chaps should know when to use and when not to use a question mark. Leave being rubbish at punctuation to the Millennials!
xxx
I have found the quote button, thanks chap!Having said that, please learn how to use the quote button, chap.
PS: Also, old chaps should know when to use and when not to use a question mark. Leave being rubbish at punctuation to the Millennials!
xxx
Edited by Breadvan72 on Monday 17th April 11:58
24,000 posts, tells me you have nothing else in yer life?
However keep up the good work on here....what else would you do.....love xxx
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I'm a licensed pilot and have studied aviation accidents with one of the RAF's former senior aviation safety dudes, who also taught me to fly. I reckon that is at least as useful as watching some cheesy TV shows. I also litigate for a living, and litigation is a lot about accident theory and analysing why something went wrong, whether that something is a contract for the sale of some sugar beet futures, or a major engineering project (I have litigated about both of those and quite a lot of other things - being a business litigation lawyer can sometimes be more broadening than narrowing).Reflecting on accidents and looking for ways to avoid them happening again is important, but, when analysing why an accident happened, you should avoid being so balanced that you can't distinguish black from white.
The evidence of negligence on the part of the Morgan driver is in this case compelling. All of the counter factuals and what ifs add nothing. The Peugeot may have been travelling fast, but it is a Peugeot, not the Millennium Falcon on the Kessel run. The Morgan driver launched his car into the path of the Peugeot, looking left either not at all or only as he left the car show. The Peugeot then hit the Morgan just two to three seconds after it entered the carriageway. That tells you all that you need to know.
On a tangent... Strangely, and probably wrongly, I always thought that peeps that bought Morgans were the same type of people that were into rambling (walking not talking 
), stamp or coin collections, wearing tweedy stuff, possibly salmon fishing, and smoking pipes... You don't see Morgans on the road too often, although there is a raggedy one that parks in my local Sainsbury's every now and then, but I've yet to meet and engage with the owner.... When I have seen them on the Queens highway, they're usually being driven sedately and always well within the speed limit.....
I've been to a lot of car shows, and the departure 'ritual' thing isn't unusual, but I have never, ever, seen a Morgan, that bastion of olde worlde English motoring heritage, being driven like the one in the subject clip.... This isn't another 'who's fault' post, I just find it unusual to see a Morgan being driven in this fashion......
Carried away by the moment maybe.....
), stamp or coin collections, wearing tweedy stuff, possibly salmon fishing, and smoking pipes... You don't see Morgans on the road too often, although there is a raggedy one that parks in my local Sainsbury's every now and then, but I've yet to meet and engage with the owner.... When I have seen them on the Queens highway, they're usually being driven sedately and always well within the speed limit..... I've been to a lot of car shows, and the departure 'ritual' thing isn't unusual, but I have never, ever, seen a Morgan, that bastion of olde worlde English motoring heritage, being driven like the one in the subject clip.... This isn't another 'who's fault' post, I just find it unusual to see a Morgan being driven in this fashion......
Carried away by the moment maybe.....
The horn sounds at about the same time the Morgan straightened out onto the road, so perhaps the Peugeot driver could've got on the brakes sooner. But to be honest there's only 2 seconds between the Morgan entering the lane and the pug hitting him so it probably would have been pretty close even if reactions had been perfect. Pug could have gone around but clearly panicked. Blame goes squarely to the Morgan driver IMO. He took a big risk just to avoid getting stuck behind a slower driver and impress his mates at the car show.
There is some speculation in the Morgan fora that the car had been rented for the day (applying The Rule of the Three Fs). Or maybe the idiot driver with his ludicrous Peaky Blinders hat had borrowed his boring old dad's boring old car. I will offend any Morgan owners here, but here goes - aren't Morgans cars for people who like the idea of a classic Brit sports car but really have no clue about cars or driving? OK, that's a wky stereotype and mucho unfair, but, like many stereotypes, may it contain some germs of truth?
ky stereotype and mucho unfair, but, like many stereotypes, may it contain some germs of truth? I occasionally pop along to the monthly regional TVRCC meet, which every other month is held at a pub which is only a 15 minute or so drive for me... Average age of the owners, at a guess, is mid - late fifties. Some of the TVR lads I have done track days with are in their 60's.... as am I
It would be interesting to know what age group the Morgan boys tend to slot in to....
It would be interesting to know what age group the Morgan boys tend to slot in to....
On another aspect of the subject, perhaps all car shows could have signs and marshals at the exits urging those departing not to hoon off like showy nutters. This could be done in a good humoured way, and could be backed up by the suggestion that, if you do a rocket launch from the site, your car might not be let back in to the next show. Of course, when you are dealing with the sort of idiots who go to the sort of car shows that result in youtube videos of burnups and doughnuts and so forth, showing these dheads signs are asking them to be sensible may have little effect, but you never know.
When you do a race or rally training day, the instructors earnestly urge you before you leave not to try all of your newly learned SKILLZ YO on the drive home.
heads signs are asking them to be sensible may have little effect, but you never know.When you do a race or rally training day, the instructors earnestly urge you before you leave not to try all of your newly learned SKILLZ YO on the drive home.
yellowjack said:
Out of interest, this appears to have been the view afforded to the Morgan driver as he waited at the junction to move off... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3131507,-0.89096... ...and it's a road I drive regularly, as well as cycling it too.
The direction the Peugeot is coming from is a long sweeping left hander on two-lane dual carriageway down a fair old slope. Such that I can be doing 35+ mph on a bicycle at the point where the Pug hits the Morgan. Hell, I can get 'over the top' of the uphill bit at over 20mph if I put enough effort in. So many cars ignore the speed limit on that section though, to the point where it's the rule, rather than the exception, so I think the Morgan driver, if he was local, ought to be expecting higher speeds from oncoming traffic.
The Streetview pictures appear to date from 2010, when I believe the speed limit was NSL. So seventy for cars on that stretch. It was also two-lane for much further up the hill, with quite a late merge point before the return to single carriageway just prior the the reduced 30mph limit for the village.
I'm happy to be corrected, but I think the speed limit along there is now 50mph all the way to the village, and the carriageway was reduced to single lane dual carriageway before the junction from which the Morgan departs to try to improve safety and make it easier for cars turning right out of Hares Lane. Plus there are often queues through and backing up out of Harley Wintney (pedestrian crossings, reverse parking, and a couple of roundabouts contribute to the queues) so the new layout avoids cars overtaking up the hill then being left with no braking space before the back of the queue just over the brow of the hill. Lots of local roads here have seen speed limit reductions, and large sections of formerly two-lane DC have been reduced to single lane DC all along the A30 between Hartley Wintney and Basingstoke.
Knowing the road, I'd have to say that I'd be reluctant to pull out in front of anything close enough to be considered a hazard. And I'd certainly NEVER entertain the idea of crossing both carriageways in one jump.
Pug driver's view of the approach... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3139841,-0.88956...
Your maps are out of date, the road isn't like that any more, if it was the Pug would have had the option of taking avoiding action.The direction the Peugeot is coming from is a long sweeping left hander on two-lane dual carriageway down a fair old slope. Such that I can be doing 35+ mph on a bicycle at the point where the Pug hits the Morgan. Hell, I can get 'over the top' of the uphill bit at over 20mph if I put enough effort in. So many cars ignore the speed limit on that section though, to the point where it's the rule, rather than the exception, so I think the Morgan driver, if he was local, ought to be expecting higher speeds from oncoming traffic.
The Streetview pictures appear to date from 2010, when I believe the speed limit was NSL. So seventy for cars on that stretch. It was also two-lane for much further up the hill, with quite a late merge point before the return to single carriageway just prior the the reduced 30mph limit for the village.
I'm happy to be corrected, but I think the speed limit along there is now 50mph all the way to the village, and the carriageway was reduced to single lane dual carriageway before the junction from which the Morgan departs to try to improve safety and make it easier for cars turning right out of Hares Lane. Plus there are often queues through and backing up out of Harley Wintney (pedestrian crossings, reverse parking, and a couple of roundabouts contribute to the queues) so the new layout avoids cars overtaking up the hill then being left with no braking space before the back of the queue just over the brow of the hill. Lots of local roads here have seen speed limit reductions, and large sections of formerly two-lane DC have been reduced to single lane DC all along the A30 between Hartley Wintney and Basingstoke.
Knowing the road, I'd have to say that I'd be reluctant to pull out in front of anything close enough to be considered a hazard. And I'd certainly NEVER entertain the idea of crossing both carriageways in one jump.
Pug driver's view of the approach... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.3139841,-0.88956...
It was of course the Morgan drivers fault, he didn't pause to judge the speed of the Pug, or actually even look at all. As it's about to hit him he leans over for some reason, is he looking in his mirror?
If the Pug driver was over the speed limit then he also has to carry some of the blame, traffic calming measures have been put in place (in the form of signs, islands and hatchings), but it's possible he has ignored them. The very thing which was indicating to him to slow down is also the one thing which got in his way of taking avoiding action. He does look to be coming at a fair old pace which why he couldn't wipe off much speed, but that's speculation.
It's also possible the Morgan driver had been in the pub....
If he was hard on the horn which was also the airbag I wonder what it did to his arm and wrists, also has anyone else noticed that the Pugs window was up until it hit the car and then came halfway down, is this some kind of safety feature?
Edited by 227bhp on Wednesday 19th April 09:45
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