Lancia: Do they deserve a bad reputation?
Discussion
My Beta HPE was one of the best cars I've ever owned (among 50-odd).
Back in the day, when I was a muttering rotter, I had a press release telling me that the latest model for the UK market (about 1991?) was to be called the Dedra. I got straight on to them and said I didn't believe they could be serious. Sadly, they were.
In France and Italy you see those ugly great Chrysler Voyager things badged as Lancias. Did I say sad?
Back in the day, when I was a muttering rotter, I had a press release telling me that the latest model for the UK market (about 1991?) was to be called the Dedra. I got straight on to them and said I didn't believe they could be serious. Sadly, they were.
In France and Italy you see those ugly great Chrysler Voyager things badged as Lancias. Did I say sad?
Bad reputation? I didn't know about the spot weld failures until I read it on here. Tragic it killed people as a result.
Over the years I have read many unflattering things about Lancias. Mostly the Beta as already posted. Did anyone mention the outline of an old knife in a door panel yet? That Russian steel wasn't T-34 grade for sure!
I never understood why Lancia didn't make more of their rally success in the 80's. Weak advertising compared to the likes of Audi. As a fan it annoyed me so little was made of the victories.
The Stratos and 037 were just wonderful. S4 is a story in itself.
The Delta would have sold more if only Lancia had captured the market in previous years.
On balance having owned various Lancias for over 40 years I would say their reputation is sound.
Breadvan, cracking car. I love the Beta which is why I have half a dozen!
Over the years I have read many unflattering things about Lancias. Mostly the Beta as already posted. Did anyone mention the outline of an old knife in a door panel yet? That Russian steel wasn't T-34 grade for sure!
I never understood why Lancia didn't make more of their rally success in the 80's. Weak advertising compared to the likes of Audi. As a fan it annoyed me so little was made of the victories.
The Stratos and 037 were just wonderful. S4 is a story in itself.
The Delta would have sold more if only Lancia had captured the market in previous years.
On balance having owned various Lancias for over 40 years I would say their reputation is sound.
Breadvan, cracking car. I love the Beta which is why I have half a dozen!
My 83 HPE (bought in 86) was the least reliable car I ever owned. Stuff literally fell off it. The driver's side mirror. The interior mirror. Assorted interior trim. The driver's seat back failed accelerating away from a set of lights leaving me flat on my back. I had brake problems, electronic issues. On still evenings you could listen to it rusting. A 3 year old car. Honestly, I was glad to see the back of it. I sold it after two years ownership for a third of what I paid for it and was glad to get that. What a piece of crap it was. I still lust over Fulvias and Monte Carlos when I see them, but I wouldn't touch one with a barge pole.
I was driving back from Maidstone, Kent and went past what I now know was a 1982 Lancia Beta 1600 HPE automatic. It was black with a grey interior and just looked lovely. It was for sale because it had clutch issues. Now, any sensible person would have run a mile but a) I was a dumb 20 something with zero knowledge of cars and b) I was smitten with the look of the thing. It was simply gorgeous and it was to be mine. (Oh yes, it would be mine! 
) I think I paid a little over 400 of the £500 asking price, fired it up and drove home. The gear selection was a case of slipping it into D, gently giving some throttle and praying for movement. It would always move, but sometimes progress was more sedate than others. Overtaking was out of the question and some steep hills required a bit of a run-up. A change of ATF helped….a little. I did go to a couple of garages and was told the clutch bands needed adjusting but a quote for the task just resulted in some industrial strength sucking in of breath and chin scratching, without actually giving me a figure. It seems nobody wanted the task of working on a Lancia slush box. Despite the gearbox problem, when it was driving properly it was a lovely car and extremely handsome. I loved that it was rare even then. Unfortunately, one Sunday morning a P100 pick-up truck smashed into the rear at a T junction, before then doing a runner. Unfortunately for him, his front number plate had come off and was laid in the road. It seems he thought he was uninsured but his father had actually put him on cover and I got a cheque for £1200 a couple of weeks later.
That was my only Lancia and I remember it fondly. I'd have another if I could find one that was as good a condition as my old HPE. I mean who wouldn't want a High Performance Estate? I'd like a Volumex though, rather than a 1600 automatic!
) I think I paid a little over 400 of the £500 asking price, fired it up and drove home. The gear selection was a case of slipping it into D, gently giving some throttle and praying for movement. It would always move, but sometimes progress was more sedate than others. Overtaking was out of the question and some steep hills required a bit of a run-up. A change of ATF helped….a little. I did go to a couple of garages and was told the clutch bands needed adjusting but a quote for the task just resulted in some industrial strength sucking in of breath and chin scratching, without actually giving me a figure. It seems nobody wanted the task of working on a Lancia slush box. Despite the gearbox problem, when it was driving properly it was a lovely car and extremely handsome. I loved that it was rare even then. Unfortunately, one Sunday morning a P100 pick-up truck smashed into the rear at a T junction, before then doing a runner. Unfortunately for him, his front number plate had come off and was laid in the road. It seems he thought he was uninsured but his father had actually put him on cover and I got a cheque for £1200 a couple of weeks later.That was my only Lancia and I remember it fondly. I'd have another if I could find one that was as good a condition as my old HPE. I mean who wouldn't want a High Performance Estate? I'd like a Volumex though, rather than a 1600 automatic!
Ok I know I am biased, but I honestly believe they were no worse than any other manufacturer at the time.
As a lad I thought Vauxhall were quite bad for rust, just my opinion at the time. I have noticed at the many events/ shows I attend, the number of Vauxhall compared to Ford and other popular makes of similar age is noticeably less ?
My 1978 Beta 1300 Coupe was my first, had the same interior as Breadvans, replaced with a 1981 1600 Beta HPE, neither had any real issues, rust or otherwise and were a delight to drive and own.
Next came the 1986 Delta Martini Turbo, I really loved that car had it for years and years, yes this one had rust issues around the windscreen in its later years, I blame the poor sunroof drain for this, had the rust removed and repaired and managed to run it a good while after until the turbo seized and I relctantly decided to call it a day and sold it for spares/repair, again this was no worse than anything else of its era, the only thing other than that to fail was a water pump.
This had the early style instrumentation of illuminated bars for boost,temp, fuel,oil etc. Later replaced with the more now familiar dials used in the integrale, if anyone has a photo of this style I would love to see it again.
As a lad I thought Vauxhall were quite bad for rust, just my opinion at the time. I have noticed at the many events/ shows I attend, the number of Vauxhall compared to Ford and other popular makes of similar age is noticeably less ?
My 1978 Beta 1300 Coupe was my first, had the same interior as Breadvans, replaced with a 1981 1600 Beta HPE, neither had any real issues, rust or otherwise and were a delight to drive and own.
Next came the 1986 Delta Martini Turbo, I really loved that car had it for years and years, yes this one had rust issues around the windscreen in its later years, I blame the poor sunroof drain for this, had the rust removed and repaired and managed to run it a good while after until the turbo seized and I relctantly decided to call it a day and sold it for spares/repair, again this was no worse than anything else of its era, the only thing other than that to fail was a water pump.
This had the early style instrumentation of illuminated bars for boost,temp, fuel,oil etc. Later replaced with the more now familiar dials used in the integrale, if anyone has a photo of this style I would love to see it again.
TL/DR: - bloke buys some Lancia Betas and goes on about them a bit.
Long version:
I had only even wanted a Fulvia, Flaminia, Aurelia etc. In 2011 I bought a Beta Spyder on a whim. It was being sold on carandclassic by a teacher in one of the posher bits of Merseyside (if there is such a thing). On the phone, he struck me as honest, so I haggled him down a bit and agreed to go and get the car later that week. On the train, I struck up a conversation with a bloke who turned out to be on his way to collect a modernish Audi bought (as a daily) unseen from an eBay bloke whom he felt he could trust. We wished each other luck.
The Spyder was a 1981 Series Two 2000 in Rosso Corsa. Heavy clutch, cloudy rear window (later replaced), no rust, bit of filler, good black PVC interior, all good. Taxed at post office and off I went. I did not know that there was such a thing as V Power Diesel, and only found out that there was just as the tank was full. The misfuel contractor sent a massive low loader which broke down as soon as it arrived, blocking the whole forecourt. It took many hours and a chunky bill to become roadworthy with a tank of V Power petrol. My plan of driving home in sunshine top down was altered to a plan of driving home top up in the dark. The radio fuse blew. I gave a lift to a grizzled homeless drifter guy who smoked pungent rollies, but he did not pong, and his conversation was OK. I dropped him off near London, gave him twenty quid, and he wished me luck with the car. The car behaved itself except for when its clutch cable broke in a traffic jam going up the hill to Hampstead to see my daughter's school play. I missed the play. No one helped me push the car clear. They all just honked and swore and made gestures. Two burly Poles came by on foot and helped me push the car onto a driveway. We are going to miss those guys. The young investment banker householder was friendly and said the car could stay the night pending recovery the next day. Then he got into his Lambo and went off to see his girl.
The car later popped its head gasket. Easy fix, but local alleged general classic but really mainly MGB garage took ages to get around to it and sent a big bill. Not going there again. The car otherwise went well and only developed a tiny bit of rust on the valances. Sold after a few years.
I bought a red HPE Volumex mega cheap from a good bloke on Autos
te. It was a great car. Stylish, fast, roomy, mostly reliable. a bit noisy. Great for overtaking. I bought it a numberplate for a few hundred quid: - A20 VLX. Torn seat fabric the major blemish. The clutch wore out, but a heroic bloke from Autoste fitted a new one for me (he is a great bloke, who is a legend on there and on RetroRides, and is in real life a serious aviation engineer).
One Christmas Day I was hoping to get home for lunch after dropping my daughter at her mum's. Afflicted by get-thereitis, I deliberately and stupidly ignored warning signs of an oil pressure problem and blew the engine up on the M25. Con rod out of the block. A bloke near me bought the car for not much less than I had paid for it, and is rebuilding it nut and bolt.
I briefly had an HPE ie spares car. Non runner. Half rotten, half sound. Looted for spares, sold on to the dude from whom I had bought the Volumex.
I bought a 1978 1300 Coupe on a whim. Aftermarket porno leather interior. Ford rattlecan blue. The guy who sold it to me was a Volvo P1800 guy who had bought the Beta by mistake. He was not honest with me about the car (in effect, he told me the same lies as the guy from whom he had bought the car had told him). But what the Hell, I wanted the car. I knew that it was bad when I bought it, It was much worse than I knew. Mega rotten, steering knackered. The water pump pulley fell off. Various other things broke. The car was still awesome to look at and to drive. I got it valet parked at Le Manoir Aux Quat' Saisons and they put the car right by the door, relegating modern Lambos to the back. Sold cheapo as a welding project. Believed to have been sold on and being rebuilt by a Beta geek.
So to the 1600 Coupe. I avoided a Gamma Saloon twenty year recommissioning project. I missed out on a Gamma Coupe with a new MoT and a dodgy ignition module, as a friend beat me to it. I tried to buy a late Beta Coupe 2000 from a Welsh guy who refused to answer questions about the car and would not even tell me his name on the phone. I hung up.
I had for a while really wanted a 1600 Beta, and I love the pre facelift interiors. The bronze Isle of Man car came up on eBay. An Autoste guy knew the seller, and went to look at the car for me. He wrote a full report, and I haggled a bit and secured the deal. The car was in Kendal. The seller low-loadered it to Leicester where it is being welded. So far the welder reports that the car is good. MoT soon, hopefully. I have not seen the car save in photos. I will take my Dolomite Sprint (standard ish fast-road tune, slightly tricked out suspension, modern posh grippy tyres - a fast and now reliable car) to Leicester, as it needs an exhaust section welding in to stop its bumping on the rear suspension (custom exhaust fitted badly) . I will come home in the Beta, I hope. Later I will collect the Dolomite in my SD1, which needs a bit of filler or welding in two or three places.
I can't wait to drive the Beta!
Long version:
I had only even wanted a Fulvia, Flaminia, Aurelia etc. In 2011 I bought a Beta Spyder on a whim. It was being sold on carandclassic by a teacher in one of the posher bits of Merseyside (if there is such a thing). On the phone, he struck me as honest, so I haggled him down a bit and agreed to go and get the car later that week. On the train, I struck up a conversation with a bloke who turned out to be on his way to collect a modernish Audi bought (as a daily) unseen from an eBay bloke whom he felt he could trust. We wished each other luck.
The Spyder was a 1981 Series Two 2000 in Rosso Corsa. Heavy clutch, cloudy rear window (later replaced), no rust, bit of filler, good black PVC interior, all good. Taxed at post office and off I went. I did not know that there was such a thing as V Power Diesel, and only found out that there was just as the tank was full. The misfuel contractor sent a massive low loader which broke down as soon as it arrived, blocking the whole forecourt. It took many hours and a chunky bill to become roadworthy with a tank of V Power petrol. My plan of driving home in sunshine top down was altered to a plan of driving home top up in the dark. The radio fuse blew. I gave a lift to a grizzled homeless drifter guy who smoked pungent rollies, but he did not pong, and his conversation was OK. I dropped him off near London, gave him twenty quid, and he wished me luck with the car. The car behaved itself except for when its clutch cable broke in a traffic jam going up the hill to Hampstead to see my daughter's school play. I missed the play. No one helped me push the car clear. They all just honked and swore and made gestures. Two burly Poles came by on foot and helped me push the car onto a driveway. We are going to miss those guys. The young investment banker householder was friendly and said the car could stay the night pending recovery the next day. Then he got into his Lambo and went off to see his girl.
The car later popped its head gasket. Easy fix, but local alleged general classic but really mainly MGB garage took ages to get around to it and sent a big bill. Not going there again. The car otherwise went well and only developed a tiny bit of rust on the valances. Sold after a few years.
I bought a red HPE Volumex mega cheap from a good bloke on Autos
te. It was a great car. Stylish, fast, roomy, mostly reliable. a bit noisy. Great for overtaking. I bought it a numberplate for a few hundred quid: - A20 VLX. Torn seat fabric the major blemish. The clutch wore out, but a heroic bloke from Autoste fitted a new one for me (he is a great bloke, who is a legend on there and on RetroRides, and is in real life a serious aviation engineer). One Christmas Day I was hoping to get home for lunch after dropping my daughter at her mum's. Afflicted by get-thereitis, I deliberately and stupidly ignored warning signs of an oil pressure problem and blew the engine up on the M25. Con rod out of the block. A bloke near me bought the car for not much less than I had paid for it, and is rebuilding it nut and bolt.
I briefly had an HPE ie spares car. Non runner. Half rotten, half sound. Looted for spares, sold on to the dude from whom I had bought the Volumex.
I bought a 1978 1300 Coupe on a whim. Aftermarket porno leather interior. Ford rattlecan blue. The guy who sold it to me was a Volvo P1800 guy who had bought the Beta by mistake. He was not honest with me about the car (in effect, he told me the same lies as the guy from whom he had bought the car had told him). But what the Hell, I wanted the car. I knew that it was bad when I bought it, It was much worse than I knew. Mega rotten, steering knackered. The water pump pulley fell off. Various other things broke. The car was still awesome to look at and to drive. I got it valet parked at Le Manoir Aux Quat' Saisons and they put the car right by the door, relegating modern Lambos to the back. Sold cheapo as a welding project. Believed to have been sold on and being rebuilt by a Beta geek.
So to the 1600 Coupe. I avoided a Gamma Saloon twenty year recommissioning project. I missed out on a Gamma Coupe with a new MoT and a dodgy ignition module, as a friend beat me to it. I tried to buy a late Beta Coupe 2000 from a Welsh guy who refused to answer questions about the car and would not even tell me his name on the phone. I hung up.
I had for a while really wanted a 1600 Beta, and I love the pre facelift interiors. The bronze Isle of Man car came up on eBay. An Autos
te guy knew the seller, and went to look at the car for me. He wrote a full report, and I haggled a bit and secured the deal. The car was in Kendal. The seller low-loadered it to Leicester where it is being welded. So far the welder reports that the car is good. MoT soon, hopefully. I have not seen the car save in photos. I will take my Dolomite Sprint (standard ish fast-road tune, slightly tricked out suspension, modern posh grippy tyres - a fast and now reliable car) to Leicester, as it needs an exhaust section welding in to stop its bumping on the rear suspension (custom exhaust fitted badly) . I will come home in the Beta, I hope. Later I will collect the Dolomite in my SD1, which needs a bit of filler or welding in two or three places. I can't wait to drive the Beta!
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 29th May 15:28
This US magazine article rates the Beta highly -
https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hsx/2011/06/Stil...
https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hsx/2011/06/Stil...
I have had three.
A 1977 Beta Spyder that i have owned since 1989. It's an amazing car which has suffered very little rot in its life and is mechanically as strong as an ox. Ancillary bits are rather fragile and some things fall into the "who thought that was a good idea?!" Category but overall a cracking little car that I'd drive from here to Scotland in a heart-beat
A 1976 Fulvia 1.3 S3 that I owned for a couple of years in the mid 90s. Beautifully engineered, drove like a dream and unbelievably sophisticated for a Mid 60s small coupe - poke around one for quarter of an hour and you'll see why they cost more than an E Type new. The rust had got into the front sub frame mounts and, in the end, I sold it to buy my 1st wife's engagement ring. It was restored and still goes strong
A 1982 Gamma Coupe SII. This is what happens when you design a great car but under-invest in the R&D to productise it. Just as unreliable as the bloke down the pub will warn you which is such a shame as it could have been awesome - the handling alone is sublime
Summary; don't deserve the bad press but can understand why things like the Gamma killed the brand; they could have got away with it in the 60s (when ironically, their cars were bullet-proof) but, by the 80s, the Gamma had to compete against the BMW 323i, the Mercedes 230CE, the Porsche 924 and the Audi 80 Coupe which, although conceptually inferior, slaughtered it in execution
A 1977 Beta Spyder that i have owned since 1989. It's an amazing car which has suffered very little rot in its life and is mechanically as strong as an ox. Ancillary bits are rather fragile and some things fall into the "who thought that was a good idea?!" Category but overall a cracking little car that I'd drive from here to Scotland in a heart-beat
A 1976 Fulvia 1.3 S3 that I owned for a couple of years in the mid 90s. Beautifully engineered, drove like a dream and unbelievably sophisticated for a Mid 60s small coupe - poke around one for quarter of an hour and you'll see why they cost more than an E Type new. The rust had got into the front sub frame mounts and, in the end, I sold it to buy my 1st wife's engagement ring. It was restored and still goes strong
A 1982 Gamma Coupe SII. This is what happens when you design a great car but under-invest in the R&D to productise it. Just as unreliable as the bloke down the pub will warn you which is such a shame as it could have been awesome - the handling alone is sublime
Summary; don't deserve the bad press but can understand why things like the Gamma killed the brand; they could have got away with it in the 60s (when ironically, their cars were bullet-proof) but, by the 80s, the Gamma had to compete against the BMW 323i, the Mercedes 230CE, the Porsche 924 and the Audi 80 Coupe which, although conceptually inferior, slaughtered it in execution
Edited by ClaphamGT3 on Thursday 1st June 10:10
After reading this thread the general consensus is that anyone who actually owned a Lancia say they were as good as any other cars of the period and don’t deserve the reputation.
Also most of the cars mentioned seem to be Fiat built cars, if you ever owned a pre Fiat one, then you know just how good these car are and anyone in the know respects both the brand and the cars.
Also most of the cars mentioned seem to be Fiat built cars, if you ever owned a pre Fiat one, then you know just how good these car are and anyone in the know respects both the brand and the cars.
Edited by FlaminiaGT on Friday 2nd June 17:30
FlaminiaGT said:
After reading this thread the general consensus is that anyone who actually owned a Lancia say they were as good as any other cars of the period and don’t deserve the reputation.
Also most of the cars mentioned seem to be Fiat built cars, if you ever owned a pre Fiat one, then you know just how good theses car are and anyone in the know respects both the brand and the cars.
True....the Beta ruined everything for them. The limited success of Integrale aside, their reputation never really recovered and Fiat management has subsequently relegated this once innovative and awesome brand to....the Ypsilon. They should have called it the Omega and shut the doors.Also most of the cars mentioned seem to be Fiat built cars, if you ever owned a pre Fiat one, then you know just how good theses car are and anyone in the know respects both the brand and the cars.
It was perhaps not the Beta itself that ruined things, as the Beta was arguably one of the best cars of its day. It was a combination of hostile media coverage and Lancia's own bad decision making that ruined things. Whoever was Lancia UK's head of corporate communications should have been fired.
Compare and contrast BL: the cars were often better than people remember them, but reputation is all. Now both Lancia and BL are forever burdened by Bloke in Pub and Top Gear blather. This does at least mean that those of who like Lancias and BL (that will be me, then) can buy the heaps for cheaps.
Compare and contrast BL: the cars were often better than people remember them, but reputation is all. Now both Lancia and BL are forever burdened by Bloke in Pub and Top Gear blather. This does at least mean that those of who like Lancias and BL (that will be me, then) can buy the heaps for cheaps.
Breadvan72 said:
It was perhaps not the Beta itself that ruined things, as the Beta was arguably one of the best cars of its day. It was a combination of hostile media coverage and Lancia's own bad decision making that ruined things. Whoever was Lancia UK's head of corporate communications should have been fired.
Compare and contrast BL: the cars were often better than people remember them, but reputation is all. Now both Lancia and BL are forever burdened by Bloke in Pub and Top Gear blather. This does at least mean that those of who like Lancias and BL (that will be me, then) can buy the heaps for cheaps.
The Betas were good design and ahead of their time, but they were poorly built and on still evenings you could listen to them rusting. There is so few left because most of them have dissolved!Compare and contrast BL: the cars were often better than people remember them, but reputation is all. Now both Lancia and BL are forever burdened by Bloke in Pub and Top Gear blather. This does at least mean that those of who like Lancias and BL (that will be me, then) can buy the heaps for cheaps.
Breadvan72 said:
It was perhaps not the Beta itself that ruined things, as the Beta was arguably one of the best cars of its day. It was a combination of hostile media coverage and Lancia's own bad decision making that ruined things. Whoever was Lancia UK's head of corporate communications should have been fired.
Compare and contrast BL: the cars were often better than people remember them, but reputation is all. Now both Lancia and BL are forever burdened by Bloke in Pub and Top Gear blather. This does at least mean that those of who like Lancias and BL (that will be me, then) can buy the heaps for cheaps.
The Betas were good design and ahead of their time, but they were poorly built and on still evenings you could listen to them rusting. There is so few left because most of them have dissolved!Compare and contrast BL: the cars were often better than people remember them, but reputation is all. Now both Lancia and BL are forever burdened by Bloke in Pub and Top Gear blather. This does at least mean that those of who like Lancias and BL (that will be me, then) can buy the heaps for cheaps.
Breadvan72 said:
When I had a Jensen Interceptor, the story was different. Everyone at every garage claimed to have owned one or to have had a close friend, relative or boss who had owned one. There were only about 5,000 or so Interceptors ever made, so those cars must be real tarts.
There must be an interesting 'story-matching' type psychology going on there, because the same phenomenon is often experienced by us Quattro drivers. With no exaggeration, about 80% of men who comment on the car go on to add that, back in the day, 'a mate had one of the short ones'. I think about 200 'short ones' were ever built, of which a dozen or so (very few at any rate) came to the UK.Yertis said:
Breadvan72 said:
When I had a Jensen Interceptor, the story was different. Everyone at every garage claimed to have owned one or to have had a close friend, relative or boss who had owned one. There were only about 5,000 or so Interceptors ever made, so those cars must be real tarts.
There must be an interesting 'story-matching' type psychology going on there, because the same phenomenon is often experienced by us Quattro drivers. With no exaggeration, about 80% of men who comment on the car go on to add that, back in the day, 'a mate had one of the short ones'. I think about 200 'short ones' were ever built, of which a dozen or so (very few at any rate) came to the UK.And I can quite easily believe there were a handful of Interceptors going round the trade at incredible speed...
A mate has a photo of one parked outside his house. Except a double-take shows that it has paired "gills"...
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