Lancia: Do they deserve a bad reputation?
Discussion
Breadvan72 said:
I have just bought this Beta 1600 Coupe. It is the fifth Beta that I have had (previous ones were a 2000 Spyder, an HPE Volumex, a 1300 Coupe, and an HPE 2000 ie spares car. Betas when well sorted are fab.
Manx reg, can't say I've ever seen that on the road and I would have clocked it as an ex HPE owner.jamies30 said:
eldar said:
The Beta's problem was extremely low grade steel (a result of a deal with Fiat swapping a production line (124?) for raw steel which was the wrong grade for car bodies. This was compounded by inadequate spot welding penetration depth for the front suspension mountings.
This resulted in front suspension collapsing on high loading from new on the early cars, causing a number of deaths across Europe. Then refusing a recall. Rectified in later cars, but the damage had been done.
Do you have a source for that?This resulted in front suspension collapsing on high loading from new on the early cars, causing a number of deaths across Europe. Then refusing a recall. Rectified in later cars, but the damage had been done.
I know it's wiki so not to be trusted, but:
wikipedia said:
Unfortunately the Beta gained a reputation for being rust-prone, particularly the 1st Series vehicles (built from 1972 to 1975). A widely circulated rumor states that the cars used Soviet steel supplied to Fiat in return for building the Lada factory.[19] However, these claims have never been verified. The steel problems are more likely due to poor rustproofing techniques as well as the prolonged strikes that plagued Italy at that time rather than the metal's origin.
The corrosion problems could be structural; for instance where the subframe carrying the engine and gearbox was bolted to the underside of the car. The box section to which the rear of the subframe was mounted could corrode badly, causing the subframe to become loose. Although tales of subframes dropping out of vehicles were simply not true, a vehicle with a loose subframe would fail a technical inspection. It was not just the Series 1 cars or saloons - according to an employee of the recycling firm that disposed of the Betas, the Series 2, HPE, Coupe and Spider models were all affected and by late 1983, the scrap dealer Hallett metals in Crewkerne, Somerset had crushed the last of the affected cars. In fact, by 1983 Series 2 cars outnumbered Series 1 models by a large percentage. Deliveries to Hallett Metals were handled mainly by transport company Abbey Hill. Before being crushed (flattened), the engine and gearboxes would be removed and placed in a separate container and no parts were to be removed or resold to the public. In the UK (Lancia's largest export market at the time),[20] the company listened to the complaints from its dealers and customers and commenced a campaign to buy back vehicles affected by the subframe problem. Some of these vehicles were 6 years old or older and belonged to 2nd or 3rd owners. Customers were invited to present their cars to a Lancia dealer for an inspection. If their vehicle was affected by the subframe problem, the customer was offered a part exchange deal to buy another Lancia or Fiat car. The cars that failed the inspection were scrapped. However, on 9 April 1980 the Daily Mirror and TV programmes reported on the issue. There were claims that the problem persisted in later cars by showing photographs of scrapped 1st Series saloons, referring to them as being newer than five and six years old. Other contemporary manufacturers whose cars also suffered from corrosion were not treated as harshly.[21][22][23] Lancia had already introduced one year previously a 6-year anti-corrosion warranty - an automotive first in the UK. Whilst later Betas (2nd Series cars) had reinforced subframe mounting points and post-1979 cars were better protected from the elements, these issues damaged the whole marque's sales success on most export markets. The revision to the crossmember was quite simple and meant turning it through 180 degrees forming an 'n' channel rather than a 'u' channel thus preventing dirt and water collecting and causing rust.
If nothing else, you could maybe update that article on wiki?The corrosion problems could be structural; for instance where the subframe carrying the engine and gearbox was bolted to the underside of the car. The box section to which the rear of the subframe was mounted could corrode badly, causing the subframe to become loose. Although tales of subframes dropping out of vehicles were simply not true, a vehicle with a loose subframe would fail a technical inspection. It was not just the Series 1 cars or saloons - according to an employee of the recycling firm that disposed of the Betas, the Series 2, HPE, Coupe and Spider models were all affected and by late 1983, the scrap dealer Hallett metals in Crewkerne, Somerset had crushed the last of the affected cars. In fact, by 1983 Series 2 cars outnumbered Series 1 models by a large percentage. Deliveries to Hallett Metals were handled mainly by transport company Abbey Hill. Before being crushed (flattened), the engine and gearboxes would be removed and placed in a separate container and no parts were to be removed or resold to the public. In the UK (Lancia's largest export market at the time),[20] the company listened to the complaints from its dealers and customers and commenced a campaign to buy back vehicles affected by the subframe problem. Some of these vehicles were 6 years old or older and belonged to 2nd or 3rd owners. Customers were invited to present their cars to a Lancia dealer for an inspection. If their vehicle was affected by the subframe problem, the customer was offered a part exchange deal to buy another Lancia or Fiat car. The cars that failed the inspection were scrapped. However, on 9 April 1980 the Daily Mirror and TV programmes reported on the issue. There were claims that the problem persisted in later cars by showing photographs of scrapped 1st Series saloons, referring to them as being newer than five and six years old. Other contemporary manufacturers whose cars also suffered from corrosion were not treated as harshly.[21][22][23] Lancia had already introduced one year previously a 6-year anti-corrosion warranty - an automotive first in the UK. Whilst later Betas (2nd Series cars) had reinforced subframe mounting points and post-1979 cars were better protected from the elements, these issues damaged the whole marque's sales success on most export markets. The revision to the crossmember was quite simple and meant turning it through 180 degrees forming an 'n' channel rather than a 'u' channel thus preventing dirt and water collecting and causing rust.
He sued Lancia, along with two or three other people. In depth research showed that a mounting failed as the 3 spot welds were neither full depth or enough. There were other cases across Europe and the US. Lancia increased the spot welds to 4 and increased the penetration shortly afterwards. The penetration depth problem was partly due to poor inspection and variable steel quality.
Lancia settled out of court in 1975 (maybe 1974). I can't find any reference to either the accident or settlement via google.
It wasn't related to the general 'rust issues' wiki refers to, really predating it by a couple of years. Perhaps 'low grade steel' is too simplistic, and 'excessively variable grade steel' may be more accurate.
Lancia deserve their rep. Quality was bad. But they made some very pretty or lovable cars with a sense of theatre matched by few, if any, massmarket brands. Owned a Y10 Turbo with a tiny 1L engine that would do nothing until about ~4k revs... and then all Hell would break loose when the turbo kicked in. It was like a poor man's Ferrari F40, lol 
I have found that the rust on Betas is neither worse nor better than the rust on any 1970s car that I have owned. If you let a 70s car rust, it will rust. The 1300 Coupe that I had was very rusty, but it had lived outdoors for most of its life. The Spyder had been welded at the C pillars and a few other places, as had the Volumex. The 2000 ie spares car was partly mega solid and partly mega rusty.
The 1600 Coupe pictured above has been welded and filled a bit, to a decent standard, and is currently having some more work done for an MoT, but it's not too bad for a 1979 car that has been in the Isle of Man (wet climate, no MoT test) since about 1983. It will, once it has an MoT, get its 1979 UK plate back.
When you own any car made by BL, or any Lancia, people at garages will tell you that "all of those rusted at the dealer's mate". If it's a BL car, they will add "those all overheated/broke down/exploded/ran off with my missus" and so on. This occurs regardless of the fact that they are standing looking at a car that may be 40 or more years ago and manifestly has not fallen to bits and drives into and out of the garage.
When I had a Jensen Interceptor, the story was different. Everyone at every garage claimed to have owned one or to have had a close friend, relative or boss who had owned one. There were only about 5,000 or so Interceptors ever made, so those cars must be real tarts.
Back to Lancias, and also 70s Alfas (I have had two of those): I have found these cars to be mechanically quite reliable. The twin cam engines are robust, and easy for mechanics to work on. The five speed gearboxes ditto. Lancias usually have a Weber, and Alfas usually have twin Dellortos (those are great but can be fiddly) The electrics are often German, not Italian, and can be a bit iffy! The levels of equipment and luxury in a Lancia Beta are quite high compared with its period competition. The 1600 Coupe has nine instruments, and the rear passengers get their own reading lamp. Five speed gearboxes and disc brakes all round were standard, and most of the range also got Cromadora alloys and intermittent wipers, as well as door mirrors and other things that tended to be cost options on other cars.. The seat cloth on the earlier cars is hard wearing, that on the later cars tends to be flimsy. Spyders usually have PVC seats.
I have no experience of 70s/80s Fiats, and now they are too expensive for me. I would love either a 70s Fiat coupe, big or small, or an 80s Fiat hot hatch, but I can't afford either. Also an X 1/9, but they are getting expensive too. The planned X2/0 became the Lancia Montecarlo (nominally a Beta, but mid engined and RWD, whereas Betas are front engined and FWD). Montecarlos are are now 10K plus.
Deltas just don't do it for me, and not do Themas, Dedras and so on. I would kill for one of the beautiful 50s to 70s Lancias with the names of aristocratic Roman ladies - either a GT or saloon.
Out in my Dolomite Sprint the other day, I was pursued with great vigour by a 1960 Alfa Giulietta SZ Coupe. It was wow. I wanted it to overtake me so that I could get a better look, and I could tell that the dude wanted to overtake too, but the traffic conditions did not allow this before he turned off the route. I did get overtaken by a 1969 Porsche 911, going like the clappers. Naturally, I overtook at least three MGs, but they hardly count.
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The 1600 Coupe pictured above has been welded and filled a bit, to a decent standard, and is currently having some more work done for an MoT, but it's not too bad for a 1979 car that has been in the Isle of Man (wet climate, no MoT test) since about 1983. It will, once it has an MoT, get its 1979 UK plate back.
When you own any car made by BL, or any Lancia, people at garages will tell you that "all of those rusted at the dealer's mate". If it's a BL car, they will add "those all overheated/broke down/exploded/ran off with my missus" and so on. This occurs regardless of the fact that they are standing looking at a car that may be 40 or more years ago and manifestly has not fallen to bits and drives into and out of the garage.
When I had a Jensen Interceptor, the story was different. Everyone at every garage claimed to have owned one or to have had a close friend, relative or boss who had owned one. There were only about 5,000 or so Interceptors ever made, so those cars must be real tarts.
Back to Lancias, and also 70s Alfas (I have had two of those): I have found these cars to be mechanically quite reliable. The twin cam engines are robust, and easy for mechanics to work on. The five speed gearboxes ditto. Lancias usually have a Weber, and Alfas usually have twin Dellortos (those are great but can be fiddly) The electrics are often German, not Italian, and can be a bit iffy! The levels of equipment and luxury in a Lancia Beta are quite high compared with its period competition. The 1600 Coupe has nine instruments, and the rear passengers get their own reading lamp. Five speed gearboxes and disc brakes all round were standard, and most of the range also got Cromadora alloys and intermittent wipers, as well as door mirrors and other things that tended to be cost options on other cars.. The seat cloth on the earlier cars is hard wearing, that on the later cars tends to be flimsy. Spyders usually have PVC seats.
I have no experience of 70s/80s Fiats, and now they are too expensive for me. I would love either a 70s Fiat coupe, big or small, or an 80s Fiat hot hatch, but I can't afford either. Also an X 1/9, but they are getting expensive too. The planned X2/0 became the Lancia Montecarlo (nominally a Beta, but mid engined and RWD, whereas Betas are front engined and FWD). Montecarlos are are now 10K plus.
Deltas just don't do it for me, and not do Themas, Dedras and so on. I would kill for one of the beautiful 50s to 70s Lancias with the names of aristocratic Roman ladies - either a GT or saloon.
Out in my Dolomite Sprint the other day, I was pursued with great vigour by a 1960 Alfa Giulietta SZ Coupe. It was wow. I wanted it to overtake me so that I could get a better look, and I could tell that the dude wanted to overtake too, but the traffic conditions did not allow this before he turned off the route. I did get overtaken by a 1969 Porsche 911, going like the clappers. Naturally, I overtook at least three MGs, but they hardly count.
.
Had a Fulvia 1300 back in the 80's. Absolute hoot to drive, fantastic little car and yes more expensive than an E type when new.
A work colleague back in the 80's bought a lancia similar to Breadvans but blue. it was after the bad press about rust and was so full of wax in all the nooks and crannies it must have weighed an extra half a hundredweight...
A work colleague back in the 80's bought a lancia similar to Breadvans but blue. it was after the bad press about rust and was so full of wax in all the nooks and crannies it must have weighed an extra half a hundredweight...
Recently spoke to somebody who was a Lancia main dealer back in the day...said when the beta issues hit the press, Lancia Head Office basically gave them blank chequebooks and authorised £2000 payments to any owners who complained!!!
as a kid, we had Appias, Fulvias and various Alfas in the family and the pre-Fiat Lancias had exquisite engineering (overengineered in many respects).
Still own a rust free beta 1600 coupe and a HF turbo which is extreme fun!!
as a kid, we had Appias, Fulvias and various Alfas in the family and the pre-Fiat Lancias had exquisite engineering (overengineered in many respects).
Still own a rust free beta 1600 coupe and a HF turbo which is extreme fun!!
Lancia arguably mishandled the whole thing. The company could and perhaps should have sued the Daily Mirror, which ran a campaign against the brand, but Lancia chose to do the buy back scheme instead. Its reputation in the UK never recovered, and persists in car related folk memory to this day.
The Clarkson era Top Gear jumped on the bandwagon (and then hypocritically broadcast a soppy tribute to Lancia when it had all but died) . The average petrolhead or wannabe petrolhead (ie Top Gear viewer) derives all that he or she knows of Lancias, as of British Leyland cars, from some glib one liners from Clarkson et al.
The Clarkson era Top Gear jumped on the bandwagon (and then hypocritically broadcast a soppy tribute to Lancia when it had all but died) . The average petrolhead or wannabe petrolhead (ie Top Gear viewer) derives all that he or she knows of Lancias, as of British Leyland cars, from some glib one liners from Clarkson et al.
velocerosso said:
If I had the money and space I wouldn't hesitate to buy a Delta Integrale.
I can't fix your space issue but if you head for non-evos I think there are huge bargains still to be had. I don't understand the obsession with Evo Integrales. The 16v, 8v and HF are all wonderful cars and all achieved more major rally championship wins than the end of line evo. Maybe I'm already out of touch but the last time I looked, starting prices were under 5k.finlo said:
Breadvan72 said:
I have just bought this Beta 1600 Coupe. It is the fifth Beta that I have had (previous ones were a 2000 Spyder, an HPE Volumex, a 1300 Coupe, and an HPE 2000 ie spares car. Betas when well sorted are fab.
Manx reg, can't say I've ever seen that on the road and I would have clocked it as an ex HPE owner.Breadvan72 said:
Also you can get some of the so called lesser but still good Deltas in RHD, IIRC.
Having a mega hot car that is LHD makes for challenging solo A Road drives, although you can take a sight for overtaking along the inside of the lorry before making your move.
It's really not a problem, as any Integrale or F40 owner will attest Having a mega hot car that is LHD makes for challenging solo A Road drives, although you can take a sight for overtaking along the inside of the lorry before making your move.
Behemoth said:
Breadvan72 said:
Also you can get some of the so called lesser but still good Deltas in RHD, IIRC.
Having a mega hot car that is LHD makes for challenging solo A Road drives, although you can take a sight for overtaking along the inside of the lorry before making your move.
It's really not a problem, as any Integrale or F40 owner will attest Having a mega hot car that is LHD makes for challenging solo A Road drives, although you can take a sight for overtaking along the inside of the lorry before making your move.
Luke warm performance Barchetta owner.
arguti said:
Recently spoke to somebody who was a Lancia main dealer back in the day...said when the beta issues hit the press, Lancia Head Office basically gave them blank chequebooks and authorised £2000 payments to any owners who complained!!!
That was called "the image campaign" according to my father who worked for the Lancia importer in the Netherlands at that time. Breadvan72 said:
I have just bought this Beta 1600 Coupe. It is the fifth Beta that I have had (previous ones were a 2000 Spyder, an HPE Volumex, a 1300 Coupe, and an HPE 2000 ie spares car. Betas when well sorted are fab).
I love the seats in that!I remember going for a run in a friend of my dad's HPE Volumex around Kielder when I was about 10.
Loved them since then.
stuttgartmetal said:
Can you hear it fizzing ?
You'll be used to that noise if you have owned a Merc from about 95-2005?I've owned a lot of them and I love them, but they really are a bit crap!
My last Lancia was just about rust free...
The rust had been cut off!
I own a Delta HPE HF Turbo and initial ownership was a chore. It needed engine work (new cam shaft), new sensors everywhere (bad running) add the cost of a full service (belts etc) and the bill was the same amount I paid for the car.
Then I ended up getting new shocks all round, new wheels, a few subtle upgrades and the gearbox remote rebuilt. So for a while the car was a money pit. However, the last few years have been trouble free (touch wood) and it hasn't put a foot wrong.
The last MOT failure was due to lack of cat (my bad) so once that was replaced, it sailed through. The tester even said for a car of that age (1995) its solid with zero rust anywhere.
My mate had a Delta EVO, a Thema 8.32 and an Intergrale. All amazing in their own right. I rate Lancia. But then I am biased.
Then I ended up getting new shocks all round, new wheels, a few subtle upgrades and the gearbox remote rebuilt. So for a while the car was a money pit. However, the last few years have been trouble free (touch wood) and it hasn't put a foot wrong.
The last MOT failure was due to lack of cat (my bad) so once that was replaced, it sailed through. The tester even said for a car of that age (1995) its solid with zero rust anywhere.
My mate had a Delta EVO, a Thema 8.32 and an Intergrale. All amazing in their own right. I rate Lancia. But then I am biased.
On the premises that enthusiasm has nothing to do hard-nosed economics, there are no rights and wrongs when it comes to Lancia.
My pal and I had some great times in our Montecarlo and Beta Coupe. I'd buy another in a heartbeat. I've friends who have gone from successful outgoing chaps, to introverted gibbering wrecks in the attempt to keep on top of the mountains of issues with their Integrales.
It's a labour of love, and as we all know, and a wise man once said, love makes fools of us all.
My pal and I had some great times in our Montecarlo and Beta Coupe. I'd buy another in a heartbeat. I've friends who have gone from successful outgoing chaps, to introverted gibbering wrecks in the attempt to keep on top of the mountains of issues with their Integrales.
It's a labour of love, and as we all know, and a wise man once said, love makes fools of us all.
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