Why the obsession with originality of classics?
Discussion
It seems, at least more today with the boom in classics and sky rocketing values, that some owners of classics are a tad over the top when it comes to wanting their car as original and perfect as possible to when it came off the production line. Owners of E Types are an example who seem to want everything "just right", even to extremes of spotting or criticising very minor and trivial details, ie rubbers around the chrome pillars of the windscreen, the wrong type of rubber around the gearstick, non period glass for the head lights, and so on. Are these people really bothered about driving these lovely cars and enjoying them, or is it just about keeping them as perfect and original as possible in order to safeguard future investment?. Maybe it's because they are silly enough to fork out £250,000 on a restored car.
Whenever there's a new E Type made, they go mental noticing the errors in certain areas, details which he average owner would never notice.
Whenever there's a new E Type made, they go mental noticing the errors in certain areas, details which he average owner would never notice.
Edited by Jukebag on Tuesday 23 May 15:26
I sort of see what you mean but,
Take a 911, why not buy a singer ?
Everything modernised where nesessary, almost perfect recreation of the original 911 for today.
However, there is something about driving a time warp car, that has come through the years and bears it's age well.
Then imagine it had a mid 2000's Sony CD player in the dash. Wouldn't you think 'it would be nice to have the original unit in there' and so it starts (an original Toronto sqr 46 cassette player will now cost you £300 upwards as most were binned in favour of CD players).
It's unfortunate that it then takes the cars out of enthusiasts hands, but that's life. When something is limited supply and people want it, it gets expensive.
Take a 911, why not buy a singer ?
Everything modernised where nesessary, almost perfect recreation of the original 911 for today.
However, there is something about driving a time warp car, that has come through the years and bears it's age well.
Then imagine it had a mid 2000's Sony CD player in the dash. Wouldn't you think 'it would be nice to have the original unit in there' and so it starts (an original Toronto sqr 46 cassette player will now cost you £300 upwards as most were binned in favour of CD players).
It's unfortunate that it then takes the cars out of enthusiasts hands, but that's life. When something is limited supply and people want it, it gets expensive.
I'm assuming your thread title is meant to be "Why are some people obsessed with originality of classics" because I only own classics and have zero originality obsession. If anything my obsession is in updating them, removing as much originality as possible!
In some situations there's a case for it. Got the first/last of a particular car off the line? Of a survivor that's still got the delivery drivers finger prints on the steering wheel? In those sort of cases even I'd go the originality obsession route.
In most cases it's just the type of owner - probably with a lot of overlap with 'polishers' in the venn diagram of classic car owners. I'm sure their partners are inside doing pointless things like hovering under rugs/sofas while they are outside worrying that the grain on their vinyl is microscopically finer than original...while they clean the inside of the exhaust pipe.
I do wonder if these people would re-fit the lead water pipes if they bought an old house...
In some situations there's a case for it. Got the first/last of a particular car off the line? Of a survivor that's still got the delivery drivers finger prints on the steering wheel? In those sort of cases even I'd go the originality obsession route.
In most cases it's just the type of owner - probably with a lot of overlap with 'polishers' in the venn diagram of classic car owners. I'm sure their partners are inside doing pointless things like hovering under rugs/sofas while they are outside worrying that the grain on their vinyl is microscopically finer than original...while they clean the inside of the exhaust pipe.
I do wonder if these people would re-fit the lead water pipes if they bought an old house...
Edited by //j17 on Tuesday 23 May 15:47
Me, I like driving classics, that's my thing.
Others like other things, a lot of the people I used to converse with on the XK forums were into showing their cars. For these people originality is everything since for every non original part they loose points, right do to cases where a car started life as a 3.4 XK150S and as soon as the 3.8 engine was released the owner had it whisked back the factory to be turned into a 3.8 XK150S. Well to the show crowd the fact it had started life with the 3.4 engine, that's the way it should be shown. That's there thing.
No you and I might think they take it too far, but isn't that what hobbies are for?
I remember reading a long argument about how a certain part which isn't normally visible should be painted, in the factory they were painted black initially and then most of the part which could be seen if you crawled around on hands and knees were then painted body colour over the top. Long arguments ranged over the years about this topic, exactly which bit should be painted how. Then a particularly original car was found in a barn where it had lain for over 50 years so people on both sides of the argument set off to inspect the car to see whether it would prove them right. Well the 2 side were different and clearly the guys on the production line hadn't cared about exactly where the paint should stop, no one was expected to see it.
Anyway if you want to sell the car into the showing fraternity having a car which is 100% right according to the arcane rules of the club makes a hell of a big difference to the value of the car.
Me? I still just want to drive them.
Others like other things, a lot of the people I used to converse with on the XK forums were into showing their cars. For these people originality is everything since for every non original part they loose points, right do to cases where a car started life as a 3.4 XK150S and as soon as the 3.8 engine was released the owner had it whisked back the factory to be turned into a 3.8 XK150S. Well to the show crowd the fact it had started life with the 3.4 engine, that's the way it should be shown. That's there thing.
No you and I might think they take it too far, but isn't that what hobbies are for?
I remember reading a long argument about how a certain part which isn't normally visible should be painted, in the factory they were painted black initially and then most of the part which could be seen if you crawled around on hands and knees were then painted body colour over the top. Long arguments ranged over the years about this topic, exactly which bit should be painted how. Then a particularly original car was found in a barn where it had lain for over 50 years so people on both sides of the argument set off to inspect the car to see whether it would prove them right. Well the 2 side were different and clearly the guys on the production line hadn't cared about exactly where the paint should stop, no one was expected to see it.
Anyway if you want to sell the car into the showing fraternity having a car which is 100% right according to the arcane rules of the club makes a hell of a big difference to the value of the car.
Me? I still just want to drive them.
Each to their own, and just like religion, practice what you want, just don't try and preach to me!
I think a lot of the "perfect restoration" is simply for bragging rights, but for me, I'm just happy driving the car and enjoying it.
I like to make them go a little bit better, stop a bit better and go round corners, but I usually end up breaking something, so they get parked up until I can be bothered to get them sorted!
I know my "neglect" can drive people crazy, but I'm happy doing what I'm doing!
I think a lot of the "perfect restoration" is simply for bragging rights, but for me, I'm just happy driving the car and enjoying it.
I like to make them go a little bit better, stop a bit better and go round corners, but I usually end up breaking something, so they get parked up until I can be bothered to get them sorted!
I know my "neglect" can drive people crazy, but I'm happy doing what I'm doing!
I like originality where I can. I've spent a lot of time trying to make my Firenza as original as I can get it. I took it to shows for more than ten years with a badly worn drivers seat because the option was to have it re-trimmed in something different, as the material was only used in those 200-odd cars in the 70s, can't be found and there aren't enough to justify having it made. Fortunately someone else gave in, and I could use their old covers, but that kind of thing happens once in a blue moon.
I was keeping an eye out for a replacement roof skin because it's got a Britax sunroof in it, so I was thinking that if it needs restoring again, I could swap the roof. Then I found out that the sunroof was fitted by it's first owner, only six weeks after the car was bought, along with the Dellorto carbs and some other bits, so I now think of it as being as close to an original option as I can get.
I can't put into words why I like it to be original. Maybe it's just that it's a reference point. If I start modifying, where do I stop? If I put a modern engine and gearbox in it, wouldn't it be easier to just drive whatever that came out of? And I think, just like someone has to preserve the less popular vehicles rather than us all buying MGBs or whatever is popular, I think within that model some of them need to stay as they were.
I was keeping an eye out for a replacement roof skin because it's got a Britax sunroof in it, so I was thinking that if it needs restoring again, I could swap the roof. Then I found out that the sunroof was fitted by it's first owner, only six weeks after the car was bought, along with the Dellorto carbs and some other bits, so I now think of it as being as close to an original option as I can get.
I can't put into words why I like it to be original. Maybe it's just that it's a reference point. If I start modifying, where do I stop? If I put a modern engine and gearbox in it, wouldn't it be easier to just drive whatever that came out of? And I think, just like someone has to preserve the less popular vehicles rather than us all buying MGBs or whatever is popular, I think within that model some of them need to stay as they were.
It's drifting over from the USA
Personally on an old classic I couldn't give a stuff but the Americans are absolutely bonkers on the whole matching numbers stuff. I'm not just talking Engine numbers but every conceivable part then all the right clips and screws etc
I know because I have a 66 C2 Vette and the mere mention of changing the body colour has some writhing with grief.
On the other hand I restored a S1 Etype to perfection and fitted all the upgrades inc Throttle bodies etc and sold it to a fella for top money and he didn't care. Many Etypes are sold for big money having been LHD conversions in a better shade
Similarly Aston Martins you can happily change colour, gearbox, trim etc with very little effect
Personally on an old classic I couldn't give a stuff but the Americans are absolutely bonkers on the whole matching numbers stuff. I'm not just talking Engine numbers but every conceivable part then all the right clips and screws etc
I know because I have a 66 C2 Vette and the mere mention of changing the body colour has some writhing with grief.
On the other hand I restored a S1 Etype to perfection and fitted all the upgrades inc Throttle bodies etc and sold it to a fella for top money and he didn't care. Many Etypes are sold for big money having been LHD conversions in a better shade
Similarly Aston Martins you can happily change colour, gearbox, trim etc with very little effect
In one respect a car only leaves the factory in a certain colour / spec because that's what the first owner has ordered, on the other hand many, many more were simply churned out in identical spec and sat around waiting for buyers so to me 'originality' is only relative. My Mk2 Cooper S is a case in point, built in October '68 in blue with a white roof and small number of optional extras it spent the first six months of its life at a North London Stewart & Ardern dealership until its first owner spotted a bargain and bought it in April '69. It's one of the last built with the antiquated 3 synchro box, just a few days before the 4 synchro box was introduced onto the production line at Longbridge so it's no surprise it didn't find a buyer straight away. By the early '70s it was just another old banger mini, being repainted different colours (black, maroon and green) by the next three owners before being restored (the first time round) back to blue and white again. This was in the early '90s when Coopers and Cooper S's were starting to go up in value so it was restored to standard spec. Twenty years later I bought it and it needed restoring again, I do like original / factory correct restorations but decided on a complete colour change to a shade which was never on the options list - deep metallic purple. Some of the purists frown upon it slightly but those who remember how Minis were so often personalised back in the '70s rather like it. As a project it's still evolving and I've been changing the wheels, adding and removing period extras quite a bit since then, it's inherent value aside, it's still just a car with some flashy paint and shiny bits added for pure enjoyment.
I agree with the sentiments of the OP. I struggle to see the need for originality for high value. I've got a 20-year-old car with the original first aid kit in its little space behind the warning triangle. I was going to change it but the new kit I had, complete with non-date-expired material, was much bigger and so went under the passenger seat.
I'm about to put it up for sale and I will emphasise originality a number of times. I'll mention the first aid kit.
I can see the attraction of concourse events, although wouldn't dream of going in for one myself. There has to be something to judge the various cars on and originality is the easiest I think.
As someone said earlier, each to their own. I'd prefer a CD/MP3 player in my car rather than a tape player.
I'm about to put it up for sale and I will emphasise originality a number of times. I'll mention the first aid kit.
I can see the attraction of concourse events, although wouldn't dream of going in for one myself. There has to be something to judge the various cars on and originality is the easiest I think.
As someone said earlier, each to their own. I'd prefer a CD/MP3 player in my car rather than a tape player.
I suppose I should keep out of this, but isn't the point of having an out of date car that it is out of date?
The people that have seriously out of date cars, such as members of the Veteran Car Club, set great store by originality having the bare minimum of post-period changes necessary for use on the highway (e.g. nineteenth century vehicles have to be fitted with numberplates).
The Vintage Sports-Car Club's rules are a little more flexible, but they (we) like to feel our driving experience is what the original owner would recognise.
For some reason a large proportion of the "classic" lot seem to prefer prefer the Q-car approach, if posts on this Forum are any guide.
The people that have seriously out of date cars, such as members of the Veteran Car Club, set great store by originality having the bare minimum of post-period changes necessary for use on the highway (e.g. nineteenth century vehicles have to be fitted with numberplates).
The Vintage Sports-Car Club's rules are a little more flexible, but they (we) like to feel our driving experience is what the original owner would recognise.
For some reason a large proportion of the "classic" lot seem to prefer prefer the Q-car approach, if posts on this Forum are any guide.
Well, "standard" is one thing, to have the car precisely as it should have been when new (even if that means it was a bit rubbish), whereas "original" carries more of an "untouched" connotation about it, so there's an argument that a restored car - even if nominally perfect - cannot be "original".
Or as I've heard it put "it's only original once".
I can kind of understand both, plus if you've got something pretty rare, I guess there's a certain argument that you're as much a caretaker of it as an owner, like having a building of historical interest or what have you.
Though the changes a car carries are part of its history, too. My dad's Austin has a lot of stuff done to it supposedly in the 60s, and so while it's not standard, if you can take it to a classic meet or similar and your "wrong" bits are older than half the classics there, you have to ask if it really matters all that much.
I've found that I've settled on a fairly broad comfort zone that cars are meant to be enjoyed, and unless it feels like the changes made are horrible and hard to reverse, then I'm not that bothered, but if you do have something rare/unmolested, it's probably better to leave well alone and find a manky one to mess about with.
As for spending a fortune to be "right" with a restoration, go for it if you want to. But don't look down your nose at, say, the guy who worked out a £40 windscreen seal from a Commer van fits and means not sourcing a £200 "proper" one or similar, because it's not quite the right profile.
Or as I've heard it put "it's only original once".
I can kind of understand both, plus if you've got something pretty rare, I guess there's a certain argument that you're as much a caretaker of it as an owner, like having a building of historical interest or what have you.
Though the changes a car carries are part of its history, too. My dad's Austin has a lot of stuff done to it supposedly in the 60s, and so while it's not standard, if you can take it to a classic meet or similar and your "wrong" bits are older than half the classics there, you have to ask if it really matters all that much.
I've found that I've settled on a fairly broad comfort zone that cars are meant to be enjoyed, and unless it feels like the changes made are horrible and hard to reverse, then I'm not that bothered, but if you do have something rare/unmolested, it's probably better to leave well alone and find a manky one to mess about with.
As for spending a fortune to be "right" with a restoration, go for it if you want to. But don't look down your nose at, say, the guy who worked out a £40 windscreen seal from a Commer van fits and means not sourcing a £200 "proper" one or similar, because it's not quite the right profile.
Allan L said:
I suppose I should keep out of this, but isn't the point of having an out of date car that it is out of date?
The people that have seriously out of date cars, such as members of the Veteran Car Club, set great store by originality having the bare minimum of post-period changes necessary for use on the highway (e.g. nineteenth century vehicles have to be fitted with numberplates).
The Vintage Sports-Car Club's rules are a little more flexible, but they (we) like to feel our driving experience is what the original owner would recognise.
For some reason a large proportion of the "classic" lot seem to prefer prefer the Q-car approach, if posts on this Forum are any guide.
No need to keep out of it, everyone has an opinion, whether we agree or not!The people that have seriously out of date cars, such as members of the Veteran Car Club, set great store by originality having the bare minimum of post-period changes necessary for use on the highway (e.g. nineteenth century vehicles have to be fitted with numberplates).
The Vintage Sports-Car Club's rules are a little more flexible, but they (we) like to feel our driving experience is what the original owner would recognise.
For some reason a large proportion of the "classic" lot seem to prefer prefer the Q-car approach, if posts on this Forum are any guide.
After all, I hope we have one thing in common, that we are car enthusiasts.
So come on, please post some photos of your cars, past and/or present.
There is often something "right" about a car that has the original spec and not messed about with by various owners trying to improve it, but I am open minded myself having owned a couple of mildly modified modern classics.
One of those was "improved" by a respected tuner from new and I think it added to the value/provenance rather than took away, if you wished to look at it from an investment point of view.
Some cars are getting rare to find in factory spec due to parts availability so I suppose that eventually has a knock on effect to prices and collectors interest.
Ultimately its your car and you should take whichever route makes you happy.
One of those was "improved" by a respected tuner from new and I think it added to the value/provenance rather than took away, if you wished to look at it from an investment point of view.
Some cars are getting rare to find in factory spec due to parts availability so I suppose that eventually has a knock on effect to prices and collectors interest.
Ultimately its your car and you should take whichever route makes you happy.
I feel able to comment here because I have been involved in the E-type world for over 30 years. I would hasten to add that my car is not concours in the strict definition of the word. Now if one goes to a multi-marque show and cars are being judged, the definition of concours tends to mean "bright and shiny", but if in the Jaguar club scene it is "as it left the factory" . The JDC have two concours prizes for E-types, one the true "as it left the factory" and the other for modified cars. it is up to you which one you enter, but if the former you lay yourself open to serious judging.
My car is, following its rebuild a few years back, bright and shiny, but it has modern brake calipers, electronic ignition, radial tyres and so on for modern driving. Things we look for in a true concours judging are very particular, for example the tool kit having all the correct spanners with the correct references, a 4lb radiator cap (useless in today's conditions but standard then), standard and not stone chip paint underneath just as an example. If people don't want to do all this then we wouldn't have a concours car to judge; the pressure comes from the members, not club officials.
More and more we are seeing "restomod" coming over from the USA, in effect a car that looks like an E-type but under the skin is completely different. Have a look at Eagle E-types to see just how far they go in rebuilding a car. The list of options is endless and expensive but all customer driven, such as air conditioning and power steering. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
I have so many reference manuals on just what is correct for a car of a given date, and I think it important that as part of the history of Jaguar such reference manuals still exist. A new one has just come out from the USA by Dr Haddock for example. There is no wrong and no right in this issue. If people get the concours bug they will go to the end of the earth for the right part, paying a fortune. Tiny rear number light chromes are sold are £500 the pair but, if you have a car built before March 1962, that is what they wore and hens teeth are hard to find. Later ones aren't the same.
I guess this story will never end and some parts are now being remanufactured for the concours scene. I suppose most marques are finding people to do likewise. But if you want a driving car like mine, do as you want to it, but don't say I am right or wrong; It's my car and my choice, and I have great respect for those who do follow the very tortuous concours path. It is a very long and winding road, that one.
My car is, following its rebuild a few years back, bright and shiny, but it has modern brake calipers, electronic ignition, radial tyres and so on for modern driving. Things we look for in a true concours judging are very particular, for example the tool kit having all the correct spanners with the correct references, a 4lb radiator cap (useless in today's conditions but standard then), standard and not stone chip paint underneath just as an example. If people don't want to do all this then we wouldn't have a concours car to judge; the pressure comes from the members, not club officials.
More and more we are seeing "restomod" coming over from the USA, in effect a car that looks like an E-type but under the skin is completely different. Have a look at Eagle E-types to see just how far they go in rebuilding a car. The list of options is endless and expensive but all customer driven, such as air conditioning and power steering. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
I have so many reference manuals on just what is correct for a car of a given date, and I think it important that as part of the history of Jaguar such reference manuals still exist. A new one has just come out from the USA by Dr Haddock for example. There is no wrong and no right in this issue. If people get the concours bug they will go to the end of the earth for the right part, paying a fortune. Tiny rear number light chromes are sold are £500 the pair but, if you have a car built before March 1962, that is what they wore and hens teeth are hard to find. Later ones aren't the same.
I guess this story will never end and some parts are now being remanufactured for the concours scene. I suppose most marques are finding people to do likewise. But if you want a driving car like mine, do as you want to it, but don't say I am right or wrong; It's my car and my choice, and I have great respect for those who do follow the very tortuous concours path. It is a very long and winding road, that one.
I've nearly finished my Aston Martin DB2/4 Mk I. I took it on as a part finished project and boxes of bits, which is always difficult.
As far as originality goes I have tried to keep the car as close to original as possible, because it was just as easy to do it that way. Though it does become a bit of a slippery slope you start going down that route. The only things that are 'different' from the original build sheet are the chrome wire wheels, they should be stove enameled wire wheels with less spokes and have white wall tyres.
It's now ready for trimming:
As far as originality goes I have tried to keep the car as close to original as possible, because it was just as easy to do it that way. Though it does become a bit of a slippery slope you start going down that route. The only things that are 'different' from the original build sheet are the chrome wire wheels, they should be stove enameled wire wheels with less spokes and have white wall tyres.
It's now ready for trimming:
It's not anything new.
The b
hiness about originality of people 'competing' for concours trophies at owners club events was astonishing even back in the early 80's when I was involved in judging was something to behold.
For a lot of people, the fun is in the chase and hunt for those original parts when doing a restoration, and often once done and a year is spent 'doing the circuit' they sell and start all over again with another project....
The b
hiness about originality of people 'competing' for concours trophies at owners club events was astonishing even back in the early 80's when I was involved in judging was something to behold.For a lot of people, the fun is in the chase and hunt for those original parts when doing a restoration, and often once done and a year is spent 'doing the circuit' they sell and start all over again with another project....
Originality is history, and history is of a certain importance.
If you went to Kensington Palace to see Queen Victoria's wedding dress, you'd be a bit pissed off if they said "Well, it wasn't very relevant to today's visitors, so we swapped it for a pair of jeggings and a crop top." Fatuous, I know, but originality has its place and as classic enthusiasts (if that's what we really are) we should thank those purists for doing their thing, because they are preserving the classics we love. If everyone updated and modernised their cars, there'd be no classic cars for the next generation; there would only be 'old-style cars'.
I'm not one for shows and marque club events, so I'm not a purist, because I don't spend hours stroking my beard and poring over engine bays. However, some classic car events (regularities and so on) do limit the upgrades you're allowed in order to preserve the integrity of the historic nature of the event. That's kind of where I sit. Sensible upgrades, yes; completely changing the nature and character of the car, no. What would be the point?
If you went to Kensington Palace to see Queen Victoria's wedding dress, you'd be a bit pissed off if they said "Well, it wasn't very relevant to today's visitors, so we swapped it for a pair of jeggings and a crop top." Fatuous, I know, but originality has its place and as classic enthusiasts (if that's what we really are) we should thank those purists for doing their thing, because they are preserving the classics we love. If everyone updated and modernised their cars, there'd be no classic cars for the next generation; there would only be 'old-style cars'.
I'm not one for shows and marque club events, so I'm not a purist, because I don't spend hours stroking my beard and poring over engine bays. However, some classic car events (regularities and so on) do limit the upgrades you're allowed in order to preserve the integrity of the historic nature of the event. That's kind of where I sit. Sensible upgrades, yes; completely changing the nature and character of the car, no. What would be the point?
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