Why the obsession with originality of classics?

[Allan L]

sim16v said:

No need to keep out of it, everyone has an opinion, whether we agree or not!
After all, I hope we have one thing in common, that we are car enthusiasts.
So come on, please post some photos of your cars, past and/or present.

Well here's a Tony Large photo of one I've had since 1979 in action on last year's VSCC Spring Rally. It's fairly standard apart from mods. to the lighting system to have double dipping headlamps (was dip-and-switch), two tail lamps and there are add-on flashing direction indicators.


And here it is with its original owner in 1939:

Edited by Allan L on Wednesday 24th May 09:48

[Behemoth]

Doofus said:

If everyone updated and modernised their cars, there'd be no classic cars for the next generation; there would only be 'old-style cars'.

For me it's not about upgrades, it's about aesthetics. I have a US 308 and to get concourse points, I'd probably have to keep the US market adaptations forced onto the car. Rectangular side markers, 5mph extended bumpers and such like. These items certainly weren't styled as intended by Pininfarina but rather demanded by some jobsworth in Washington DC. So I see no problem deleting these and replacing with suitable items following the original Italian styling. It'd probably knock a zillion points off any competition entry. I really don't care; I just enjoy driving the car and want it looking the way I perceive it should look. The points concourse thing gets very stupidly anal. If you have an OCD collector mentality, I guess it must be fun, but it's not for me.

[Doofus]

Behemoth said:

For me it's not about upgrades, it's about aesthetics. I have a US 308 and to get concourse points, I'd probably have to keep the US market adaptations forced onto the car. Rectangular side markers, 5mph extended bumpers and such like. These items certainly weren't styled as intended by Pininfarina but rather demanded by some jobsworth in Washington DC. So I see no problem deleting these and replacing with suitable items following the original Italian styling. It'd probably knock a zillion points off any competition entry. I really don't care; I just enjoy driving the car and want it looking the way I perceive it should look. The points concourse thing gets very stupidly anal. If you have an OCD collector mentality, I guess it must be fun, but it's not for me.

I don't call that updating or modernising, because you're adding parts that were available in period. If you were sticking 20" wheels off a 458 on it, then that would be a different matter.

I appreciate thst your car probably won't be concours, but it will still be a car that Ferrari built themselves. My point of view is that as long as you're not removing all the original character from the looks or the behaviour of the car, that's OK by me.

[Behemoth]

Doofus said:

My point of view is that as long as you're not removing all the original character from the looks or the behaviour of the car, that's OK by me.

We are in 100% agreement You are quite right about behaviour, too. Some people throw 17" low profile tyres & rims on their 308s because it "grips better". For me, the OEM 14" are more challenging and therefore a more enjoyable and involving drive. They look far better, too. Over the 15+ years I've had 308s, thankfully these attitudes have changed and people are seeking more original character as the cars get older.

[Riley Blue]

Doofus said:

Originality is history, and history is of a certain importance.

If you went to Kensington Palace to see Queen Victoria's wedding dress, you'd be a bit pissed off if they said "Well, it wasn't very relevant to today's visitors, so we swapped it for a pair of jeggings and a crop top." Fatuous, I know, but originality has its place and as classic enthusiasts (if that's what we really are) we should thank those purists for doing their thing, because they are preserving the classics we love. If everyone updated and modernised their cars, there'd be no classic cars for the next generation; there would only be 'old-style cars'.

I'm not one for shows and marque club events, so I'm not a purist, because I don't spend hours stroking my beard and poring over engine bays. However, some classic car events (regularities and so on) do limit the upgrades you're allowed in order to preserve the integrity of the historic nature of the event. That's kind of where I sit. Sensible upgrades, yes; completely changing the nature and character of the car, no. What would be the point?

I'd guess that all the royal palaces (never mind the frocks in them) have changed considerably over the centuries from their original design but no one seems to mind - and they're unique, not produced in their hundreds or thousands on a production line like most classic cars.

Let those who are obsessed with originality enjoy it - that's their choice but it isn't for me. I once told a group of Riley owners I was taking my RME to Abingdon so I could fill the tyres with 'authentic air'; some of them believed me...

I much prefer driving so if that means I need to make changes to increase my driving pleasure, I'll make them. In one of my Rileys that means different seats, wheels and upgrades to brakes, cylinder head, exhaust and lights. The other (both 1960's One-Point-Fives) will have brakes, suspension, engine, lights and seats/interior changed in order to make comfortable and safer long distance travel possible. As there are plenty of original examples around, they'll both be 'fit for purpose' - my purpose.

As for 'preserving the integrity of the historic nature of the event', the Goodwood Revical springs to mind. If you believe that what you're watching on the circuit are cars as raced in period you're in for a big surprise - but that's a whole different can of worms. BTW - you'll find me there on Friday this year, in my '63 One-Point-Five. It's a very vivid pale blue, even that is non-original...

[Doofus]

Riley Blue said:

As for 'preserving the integrity of the historic nature of the event', the Goodwood Revical springs to mind. If you believe that what you're watching on the circuit are cars as raced in period you're in for a big surprise - but that's a whole different can of worms. BTW - you'll find me there on Friday this year, in my '63 One-Point-Five. It's a very vivid pale blue, even that is non-original...

Goodwood wasn't in my mind, as I have absolutely zero interest in cars racing round a circuit, regardless of how old or new they may be. I was thinking of classic car events such as regularities. Out-and-out competitiveness aren't what's important there, but I agree that a measure of originality is in the spirit, or you may as well enter in a Focus.

[Riley Blue]

Doofus said:

Riley Blue said:

As for 'preserving the integrity of the historic nature of the event', the Goodwood Revical springs to mind. If you believe that what you're watching on the circuit are cars as raced in period you're in for a big surprise - but that's a whole different can of worms. BTW - you'll find me there on Friday this year, in my '63 One-Point-Five. It's a very vivid pale blue, even that is non-original...

Goodwood wasn't in my mind, as I have absolutely zero interest in cars racing round a circuit, regardless of how old or new they may be. I was thinking of classic car events such as regularities. Out-and-out competitiveness aren't what's important there, but I agree that a measure of originality is in the spirit, or you may as well enter in a Focus.

I knew you weren't thinking of Goodwood but thought I'd mention the best known example of stretching 'originality'.

Though you have no interest in circuit racing, VSCC race meetings are well worth watching to see many of the same cars and drivers who compete in regularities 'giving it beans'. If it's post-war competition that interests you more, the A35s are an absolute hoot to watch though once again, 'original' they ain't...

[Equus]

Doofus said:

Originality is history, and history is of a certain importance.

This, really.

Looked at pragmatically, classic and vintage cars are crap: even fairly modest modern cars will out perform them in every single respect.

Their value is their historic importance: destroy their originality, and you degrade that importance.

If you want modern levels of performance, convenience, efficiency and reliability, then FFS buy a modern car, don't fk up an old one by turning it into a pastiche of itself.

I wonder how many readers of this thread would approve if it was suggested that HMS Victory was rebuilt with a GRP hull, to reduce maintenance costs, and given a pair of Cummins diesel engines so that she could be taken on promotional tours?

[Doofus]

Riley Blue said:

Though you have no interest in circuit racing, VSCC race meetings are well worth watching to see many of the same cars and drivers who compete in regularities 'giving it beans'. If it's post-war competition that interests you more, the A35s are an absolute hoot to watch though once again, 'original' they ain't...

I have actually been to a VSCC event in the past, but I'm afraid I just found it boring. If I analyse the kind of events I can enjoy, and those I don't, the common denominator is the existence of a circuit.

I have a fascination with long distance or endurance events, such as MM, and the Round-The-World / Peking-Paris / Carrera Panamericana, for instance, but Le Mans is, to me, tedious in the extreme. I went to Le Mans years ago (as an example of a circuit-based endurance event), and left after about five hours due to torpor.

I was invited to one of Julius Thurgood's Top Hat events early in their life, and probably spent no more than thirty minutes watching the racing.

I'm in danger of taking this off topic. Suffice to say, I know what I like, and what I really, really don't.

[AW111]

This is my 30 year old MR2.
The only external mods are the wheels (better choice of tyres in 15") and rear spoiler removed because I prefer it that way.
Wheels have been changed since the photo.



While I can understand the originality buffs, mine os more of a resto-mod, while hopfully preserving the original feel.

[S47]

The only thing on moderns I like is the reliabilty and efficiency of the engines - Drop a modern engine into any classic and you improve it enormously.
Modern cars are huge/massive/heavy compared to the Petite & stylish classics. if you drop a modern engine into a classic it would blow the socks off any ugly modern 'Blob' - Audi/BMW/MBzfor example - They're all so boring to look at, and modern SUV's are Ugly design disasters IMO.
Provided a 60/70's classic retains it's original lines and period accessories [60/70's alloys etc] then it's OK with me

[Equus]

S47 said:

Drop a modern engine into any classic and you improve it enormously.

That depends on the engine, and the car you're dropping it into.

Some people seem to think that dropping a Zetec engine into a Lotus Elan will improve it enormously. Personally (and having driven one), I think it fks the car up beyond all redemption: sure, it's reliable, but the modern 16-valve unit has a very flat (read: monotonous) torque curve with linear power delivery and feels anodyne and gutless compared to the original. Similarly, the 5 speed gearbox conversions make life easier on the motorways, but are nowhere near as nice a gearchange as the 4-speed original.

People were dropping Jaguar engines and even American V8's into Bugattis in the 1950's for exactly the same reason you give. Would you buy one in preference to a car fitted with the original engine, these days?

[a8hex]

Behemoth said:

For me, the OEM 14" are more challenging and therefore a more enjoyable and involving drive.

I ended up putting a modern 5 speed box and radial tyres on my XK150 and it ceased being so interesting to driver. With the Moss box there was lots of character, to get a good gear change you had to concentrate while the MT75 based unit I ended up with would just changes easily, where's the fun in that? Likewise the tyres, radial are are easier to drive on, but I missed working with the car to keep it going where I wanted it to rather than following the camber.
I've got a modern car I can drive when I want things that just work.
I've sold the updated classic, now I'll have to think about a replacement which is more interesting (read challenging) to drive.

[aeropilot]

Equus said:

S47 said:

Drop a modern engine into any classic and you improve it enormously.

That depends on the engine, and the car you're dropping it into.

Some people seem to think that dropping a Zetec engine into a Lotus Elan will improve it enormously. Personally (and having driven one), I think it fks the car up beyond all redemption

I agree.

Although I suppose that makes me hypocritical in that I adore hot rods, and am quite happy to see a 1950's engine (Olds, Caddy, Chrysler, Chevy etc) fitted into a 1930's/40's Ford as much as I enjoy them with an original style Flattie powering them.

[vanquish spirit]

thank goodness we are all built differently and want different things. I have always taken the view that people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones. So , who ever started this thread, lets hope you have no idiosyncrasies or else you are indulging in breaking the glass on your greenhouse. Particularly, at the moment, it makes one realise that what other people do, as long as its not causing harm to others really doesn't matter. But since we are on the subject I have to comment.

I personally, cannot understand people who want a classic car and then seek to alter it with modern upgrades that in most cases dilute the essential DNA of the experience. I do get , better brakes, cooling and electrics, but beyond that my own view is go and buy a modern car as you are not in the right zone. Anything you get from a Classic will disappoint, your expectations are not realistic. Perhaps you are posers rather than collectors? Keen to look the part but without the experience?

As for the E type boys, why would it bother you what other people find of interest? Do you take the piss out of stamp collectors, Crufts dog trainers and breeders, or athletes who want to compete in a field and better the previous record breakers. Its called Human Endeavour. I think its the topic author that needs to get a life.

[spaximus]

I agree it is each to their own, but you do have to wonder at some of the prices paid for parts. £2-300 for an original old jack for a lotus, for example to me is insane, but if that is what makes them happy go for it.

I have never been stuck on originality, go to any historic race meeting, like the Revival, and the top cars are so far from original in engineering terms they may as well be a different car. However, we just celebrate what they can do, to me anyone who drives something different is fine

[Allan L]

Strela said:

Looks great in that first picture with the little MG behind it. I vaguely recognise the Loftus Tottenham name. Which one was this?

In the course of my research I discovered that he was Henry Thomas Lloyd Loftus-Tottenham who was born on 22 June 1900, the son of Admiral Henry Loftus Tottenham and Florence Elizabeth Coles.
Armed with those given names I found that Capt. Henry Thomas Lloyd [Loftus-]Tottenham (1900-1970) (Tom) served in the Royal Engineers and was Director of Chase Protected Cultivation Ltd., and other Companies. Also Assistant Manager of Queen’s Park Rangers Football Club. Lived at Three Gates, 16 Oatlands Chase, Weybridge and I think that's where the photo was taken.
I know nothing about football but did know that Queen's Park Rangers did not play in Queen's Park but in Shepherd's Bush and it seems their ground is called Loftus Road - but that's just coincidence!

[zygalski]

AW111 said:

This is my 30 year old MR2.
The only external mods are the wheels (better choice of tyres in 15")...

And a damn site safer in my GTE16v than 14's!
Moving up from standard 185/65/14 to 195/55/15 makes all the difference to the handling. That & dropping it 30mm or so.
I use mine for daily use & drive it enthusiastically. For me originality is a secondary concern to safety.

[gothatway]

zygalski said:

For me originality is a secondary concern to safety.

Agreed. I was rear-ended in my big Healey when turning right off a major road because the driver behind didn't see that the single off-side (red) rear light was blinking, being a combined side/brake/indicator light. So I have replaced the rear reflectors on each side with separate orange indicators, and mounted separate reflectors on the bumper brackets. Still looks period and the chances are that most non-Healey experts wouldn't notice. Of course while doing the wiring for that, the job grew to provide relays for fog lights, lots more fuses, etc., etc., so the car is now more reliable.

[Equus]

gothatway said:

zygalski said:

For me originality is a secondary concern to safety.

Agreed.

Then, to put it bluntly, you should both forget about classics and drive modern cars.