London's T-Charge & LPG

Author
Discussion

plasticpig

12,932 posts

224 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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Any car manufactured before the 1st of January 1980 is exempt from the charge.

Blaster72

10,772 posts

196 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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NDA said:
Are London's filthy black cabs included in the T Charge - or has Mr Khan exempted them?

Uber's hybrid cars should be fairly clean by comparison I would have thought. Or is that not the point?
All Taxi's, Minicabs, recovery vehicles and emergency vehicles are exempt.

Most cars, vans etc.. built before 2006 will probably not meet the emissions standard and will be fined.

Pica-Pica

13,620 posts

83 months

Monday 23rd October 2017
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Pica-Pica said:
Wuzzle said:
And Congestion. We also have one at the Dartford Crossing, pretty sure that isn't pollution related.

The clue is in the name...
That big C at the Dartford Crossing, is the Dart Charge a toll for road use to fund the crossing.
But others are confused too.
http://www.kentonline.co.uk/dartford/news/dart-cha...

grumpy52

5,565 posts

165 months

Saturday 28th October 2017
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Pica-Pica said:
Wuzzle said:
And Congestion. We also have one at the Dartford Crossing, pretty sure that isn't pollution related.

The clue is in the name...
That big C at the Dartford Crossing, is the Dart Charge a toll for road use to rip the motorist off long after the crossing had been paid for .
FTFY

mauricemaria777

17 posts

130 months

Sunday 5th November 2017
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I have a diesel 2008 Cls merc I am told that I need to pay this T charge anyone out there know if this is correct and if so what other cars after 2005 still need to pay this extra charge

ChimpOnGas

9,637 posts

178 months

Thursday 3rd January 2019
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yosini said:
Heard about this on the radio this morning as we commuted into central London in an Interceptor. Not that it's a daily commute, and we were travelling in as a family but it did make me wonder, as I have done over the years, about converting to LPG. Our T25 is LPG only and is wonderful - filling up for 25 quid and the look on the MOT testers face each year when the exhaust probe reads zero and they wonder if their machine is broken. When the congestion zone charge was first introduced LPG vehicles were exempt, rightfully so as it was meant to reduce pollution among other things, but that was soon dropped. I wonder if these new pollution-centric initiatives will re-look at exempting LPG vehicles?

Luckily I don't drive into the congestion zone very often, so infrequently that when I do I generally forget to pay until a few days later when it is too late to back date it and all you can do is wait for the £65 fine. A quick check online exempts the Interceptor from the T-Charge anyway, still fancy converting it though - anyone done a big V8 LPG conversion on here? apparently 10% reduction in power (not a problem), increase in running temp (not a problem at the mo), need to find space (the spare wheel is suitably positioned to replace and then just carry some tyre-weld), good for the environment - all sounds wise to me.

Cheers

Joe
Hi Joe,

"Anyone done a big V8 LPG conversion on here?"

Yes, me wink

LPG when implemented correctly is a wonderful thing thumbup

By replacing my TVR's rather crude original distributor ignition and Lucas 14CUX fuel management systems with a clever stand alone dual fuel engine management system (permits direct mapping of fuel metering and ignition tables on both fuels independently), my Chimaera now actually makes more power and torque on gas than it did when it left Bristol Avenue back in 1996 running exclusively on petrol .









I use my low carbon dual fuel TVR in the UK and extensively across mainland Europe where it delivers the equivalent fuel economy of a petrol car averaging 45mpg, swapping a petrol average of 23mpg for the petrol cost equivalent of 45mpg is completely game changing as it turns my thirsty V8 into something that's as cheap to fuel as a small petrol hatchback.... think petrol Fiesta, VW Polo, Fiat 500 cheap.



Of course this would all be pointless if LPG left me with compromises, I designed my conversion to ensure the car retained it's practical 300 mile plus range when running on LPG with a further 130miles of petrol in reserve. The retention of usable boot space was carefully managed and externally the car is indistinguishable from a standard TVR Chimaera. Drivability and engine flexibility are greatly enhanced on LPG over a standard petrol Chimaera even though I run a high lift cam profile and a flywheel that's a full 10Lbs lighter than the original, the secret being a far superior engine management system and the 3D fuel/ignition mapping it permits.





The TVR Chimaera is really an old school analogue British sports car that was given better handling, brakes and ergonomics to make it a saleable proposition in the 1990's, it's also a fantastic GT making it somewhat of a cost effective competitor to the latest trend for improved classics from the likes of Frontline and Eagle.

But does my LPG Chimaera still perform like a TVR should scratchchin

Well, on LPG the car tops out at a sat nav confirmed 153mph and accelerates from 0-60mph in 4.8 seconds with the far more important in gear 60-100mph acceleration figure being dealt with in just 6.5 seconds, for comparison thats Ferrari Testarossa performance with Ford Fiesta economy from a old school analogue British sports GT with incredibly low emissions.

Even after the conversion the fact the car still only weighs in at 1100kg (wet) helps significantly to extract the best performance from it's 250hp and 260ft/lbs of torque.



From just 2,000rpm the 1100kg is already being moved along by a healthy 150 horsepower and 150ft/lbs of torque, squeeze the throttle to add just 1,000rpm and the all aluminum V8 engine serves up a further 70 horsepower and a whopping 90 ft/lbs of torque. In third gear that's 30mph - 45mph, or in 4th gear 40mph - 60mph all dispatched in a blink of an eye without even exceeding 3,000rpm. Wind it on further from 3,000rpm to 4,000rpm and things get even more exciting, and from 4,000rpm to 5,600rpm you're in for a properly wild ride.

LPG has brought my TVR bang up to date in terms of cleaning up it's impact on the environment while at the same time making it massively cheaper to fuel than even the very latest super efficient Nissan 370z and Porsche Boxster, two modern sports cars that have similar 0-60 performance figures to my dual fuel Chimaera but would still struggle the match the TVR's mighty mid range grunt.



"Ferrari fast, Fiesta Frugal"



And probably the cleanest low emissions classic sports car in the UK this side of one of those electric 911 or E-Type conversions.... And personally I'd have my full fat V8 sound track over a characterless electric hum any day of the week yes

In summary LPG is an excellent option for updating and cleaning up your classic, which is why Fuzz Townsend approached me to help with the next series of Car S.O.S where we will be converting a classic to dual fuel and showing everyone how its done properly wink



Dave wavey

yosini

Original Poster:

265 posts

148 months

Thursday 3rd January 2019
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Hi Dave,

Wow, that is what I call a reply! Amazing, and exactly what I was looking for - even more so as I have an early AJP engined Cerbera which I'd love to convert - probably more complex than the Chim though... Good to know it is not only possible, but makes so much sense on all levels.

Thanks for the reply - I'm occasionally around at TVR events so I'll try to catch up with you in more detail at some point.

happy new year

Cheers

Joe

ChimpOnGas

9,637 posts

178 months

Thursday 3rd January 2019
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yosini said:
Hi Dave,

Wow, that is what I call a reply! Amazing, and exactly what I was looking for - even more so as I have an early AJP engined Cerbera which I'd love to convert - probably more complex than the Chim though... Good to know it is not only possible, but makes so much sense on all levels.

Thanks for the reply - I'm occasionally around at TVR events so I'll try to catch up with you in more detail at some point.

happy new year

Cheers

Joe
I Joe, Happy New Year to you too.

Well, if you'd like to meet and see my LPG Chimaera I will be at Bicester Heritage this Sunday so feel free to PM me and I'll share my mobile number with you so we can arrange to hook up.

'Classic Oils' (Building 96) owned by a friend of mine Guy Lachlan is always a good meeting point, and I believe Fuzz will be attending too.

Hope to see you there?

Dave.

sim16v

2,176 posts

200 months

Saturday 5th January 2019
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I think LPG works really well on larger engines, and I have ran cars for the last 10 years or so on it.

My current daily is a V8 Grand Cherokee, used for towing just about anything, at reasonable cost.

I don't go in to as much detail as Chimp Dave, but 200 miles for £40 is good enough for me, even towing heavy stuff!


CAPP0

19,530 posts

202 months

Sunday 6th January 2019
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Its my understanding though that that any such charges (T-charge, ULEZ, etc) will be based on what the car came out of the factory as, and as such a later conversion to LPG won't exempt it. I checked this a few years ago and this is what I was told, although I'm afraid I can't recall the source. May of course have changed since?

Edited by CAPP0 on Sunday 6th January 14:08

ChimpOnGas

9,637 posts

178 months

Sunday 6th January 2019
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It's not looking good chaps frown

"A loophole that would have allowed classic cars running on liquefied petroleum gas to enter the capital’s proposed Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) from 2020 has been closed by Transport for London, TfL states that having a car modified to run on LPG won’t change the status of the vehicle"

https://www.classiccarsforsale.co.uk/blog/market-t...

And this...

"The only British city with confirmed plans for a ULEZ is London, and it is set to be introduced in September 2020. The daily charge will be £12.50 and there will be no exemption for cars that run on LPG. Your vehicle would be treated according to the emissions standard it met when it was first produced."

"The same emissions standards as for the pre-conversion vehicle apply,” said a spokesman for Transport for London. “Where the base vehicle was petrol, the ULEZ standards for petrol vehicles apply."

https://www.driving.co.uk/car-clinic/what-are-the-...

ChimpOnGas

9,637 posts

178 months

Monday 14th January 2019
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Some more information on the great ULEZ con.

Sadly LPG is not the solution to ULEZ, Euro 4 is the minimum ULEZ standard for cars and light vans, Euro 4 became mandatory for all new cars in 2005 and light vans in 2006. The ULEZ rules state the car's original Euro number status remains unchanged even if you convert to gas.

For example my 1996 TVR Chimaera is considered Euro 2 so all Chimaeras will be subject to the charge including mine even though I've converted it to burn low carbon LPG, a fuel that means the car is now massively less polluting than when it was new in 1996. This is especially ridiculous because an LPG converted TVR Chimaera will produce far less NOx and PM than a Euro 6 diesel car that's considered clean enough the meet the ULEZ standard.

What we are being told is ULEZ is all about reducing oxides of nitrogen (NOx) and particulate matter (PM)... but!

  • An LPG car will produce five times less NOx than an equivalent age diesel car
  • A diesel vehicle emits 120 times the amount of particulate matter than an equivalent age LPG vehicle
And oddly C02 is not part of the ULEZ standard, a car running on LPG will also produce 11% less CO2, indeed if you study the true 'Well to Wheel' CO2 production figures on a like for like vehicle of the same age they considerably lower on LPG than other fuels:

  • A diesel car produces 29.2% more CO2 than LPG
  • A petrol car produces 26.8% more CO2 than LPG
ULEZ is actually as much about encouraging (forcing) people to buy a new car to stimulate new car sales as it is about lowering pollution levels in our cities, now study just how much energy it takes to manufacture a new car in the first place and you'll immediately see ULEZ is yet another trick being played on the population for economic not environmental reasons.

The truth is manufacturing a medium-sized new car will generate more than 17 tonnes of CO2, so everyone forced by ULEZ to buy a new car to meet the standard will immediately be responsible for generating 17 tonnes of CO2 before they even turn a wheel. Even if they just keep it running on petrol if they had been allowed to keep and use their older non ULEZ compliant vehicle they would have instantly saved those 17 tonnes of CO2.

And make no mistake 17 tonnes is a hell of a lot of CO2 yikes

To put all this into perspective lets say you own a 2002 Mk1 Ford Focus 1.6 petrol which is Euro 3 so will not meet the ULEZ standard, your old petrol Focus will produce quite a bit more CO2 than a new petrol Focus but you'd actually need to drive the more polluting old Focus some 35,000 miles on petrol for it to produce the 17 tonnes of CO2 it takes to make a new ULEZ compliant Focus, and all that before that new Focus has even turned a wheel!

And dont forget as soon as you start driving your new Focus thats already consumed a whopping 17 tonnes of CO2 in manufacture it will itself be producing roughly 150g/mile. Now lets say you had converted your old 2002 Mk1 Ford Focus to LPG, while it is way more polluting on petrol than the new Focus, despite this the gap is closed back up when it burns LPG and it immediately starts producing the same 150g/mile of CO2 as the brand spanking new super high tech 2019 ULEX compliant Focus, it also produces gar less oxides of nitrogen (NOx).

Worse still if you replaced your old 2002 petrol Focus that's now running on LPG with a new ULEZ compliant Diesel powered Focus you will immediately be pushing out 120 times the amount of particulate matter (PM) into the environment, that's a shockingly human being killing backward step hurl

But despite all this your old but now far cleaner LPG 2002 Mk1 Ford Focus is still not considered ULEX compliant because its still a Euro 3 vehicle, that's just plain stupid, they don't even consider whats coming our of the tailpipe now the Focus is burning low carbon LPG, they simple refer to the Euro classification number and that's that irked

If ULEZ really is about reducing oxides of nitrogen (NOx) and particulate matter (PM) quite clearly there should be concessions given to older but now far far less polluting LPG converted vehicles. But the government doesn't want that, they want people to buy new cars!

And all this despite the uncomfortable truth they don't want you you know....... which is it takes a whopping 17 tonnes of CO2 to make that new ULEX compliant car in the first place and before its even turned a wheel!

ULEZ is a con! mad