Tell me about British Leyland

[williamp]

After this thread I bought the edwardes book from amazon. Am about third through it. And it is fascinating. He also says that there wasnt one problem with BL: everything was wrong. And solving one thing would make no difference without all the others. A hue undertaking..

[mikal83]

iSore said:

In hindsight, Edwardes should have closed Austin Morris in 1977. Nothing that came after that (Maestro etc) made any proper money. Jaguar production could have been moved to Longbridge (Harold Musgrove offered this solution to Egan) along with Triumph. It's a pity the TR7 was axed early, just as it was becoming a decent car. The late 2.0 Convertible was a good car and increasingly popular.

Jaguar, Rover, MG, Triumph and investment in all including the Sherpa van - you forget how popular they were at the time. the whole Metro/Maestro/Montego thing was a complete dead end as they just weren't good enough (as usual). Ford and GM did that sort of thing so much better as the market soon proved.

Edwards and Mrs Thatcher didn't get on at all - she wanted the whole lot off her hands and rightly so.

I remember very well the Thatcher, "red" robbo, speke, longbridge, Edwardes saga that was front page news every day it seemed in the 70's and 80's. It wasn't a happy time. Power cuts, rubbish on the streets and all. Then there was the abso feckin lutley sheeeeite cars.

[Dr Jekyll]

mikal83 said:

I remember very well the Thatcher, "red" robbo, speke, longbridge, Edwardes saga that was front page news every day it seemed in the 70's and 80's. It wasn't a happy time. Power cuts, rubbish on the streets and all. Then there was the abso feckin lutley sheeeeite cars.

It wasn't just BL though. In those days newspapers had 'industrial correspondents' whose full time job was to report on how the current strikes were going.

[iSore]

mikal83 said:

I remember very well the Thatcher, "red" robbo, speke, longbridge, Edwardes saga that was front page news every day it seemed in the 70's and 80's. It wasn't a happy time. Power cuts, rubbish on the streets and all. Then there was the abso feckin lutley sheeeeite cars.

The Derek Robinson thing was in the 74-79 Labour government, Harold Wilson and then Farmer Jim Callaghan. Neither could stand up to the unions.
Mrs Thatcher however could, and did. The '84 miners strike was two pronged - an element of revenge for the 1974 defeat of Ted Heath, and absolutely not bowing down to idiots like Scargill.

Edwardes wanted to finish the job and BL may possibly been better off if he had had his contract extended but I'm not convinced. Mrs T's government (rightly, it seems) decided that offloading BL to stand or fall, and enticing the Japanese to base themselves here was a better plan. Seems she was right. I don't think BL would have succeeded ever - the rot was just too deeply engrained at every level.

[anonymous-user]

Every car I have ever owned (10+) has been British built, mainly because British jobs pay for the NHS, British services and hopefully one day my pension.

In the 70's practically every car was a rust bucket. My 850cc mini at the time had a battery box that had long since rusted through so the battery often dragged along the road held in the car only by its two power cables. The top engine mount rusted through so the engine crashed backwards and forward under acceleration (such as it is in an 850cc mini) and braking. Replacing the A frames and wings was "routine maintenance" back then, usually when the sheer weight of filler defeated the remaining rust holding the rest of it together.

But at the same time my dad's VW Golf had a completely rusted floor pan on the passenger and drivers side. I remember looking through a 8"x 6" hole at the road passing by underneath quite clearly. Likewise a work colleague had a Renault 4 with the hinges at the front of the bonnet. They rusted through and one day as he drove along the slipstream tore the bonnet off and over the top of the car.

All this rust was normal on all cars back then as far as I recall.

It was very sad what happened to BL. Very sad. Many great marques and lots of quality jobs all gone. I feel like I want to go back and bang all their heads together.

I now go by the old Longbridge site quite regularly and can't help but stare in disdain at all the old blokes in the area who may well have been part of that national disaster and think to myself "bloody idiots".

Against all odds we now have an excellent car industry again, God forbid it suffers the same disease as BL did in the 70's.

[2xChevrons]

iSore said:

The Derek Robinson thing was in the 74-79 Labour government, Harold Wilson and then Farmer Jim Callaghan. Neither could stand up to the unions.
Mrs Thatcher however could, and did. The '84 miners strike was two pronged - an element of revenge for the 1974 defeat of Ted Heath, and absolutely not bowing down to idiots like Scargill.

Edwardes wanted to finish the job and BL may possibly been better off if he had had his contract extended but I'm not convinced. Mrs T's government (rightly, it seems) decided that offloading BL to stand or fall, and enticing the Japanese to base themselves here was a better plan. Seems she was right. I don't think BL would have succeeded ever - the rot was just too deeply engrained at every level.

The Conservative governments of the time faired little better (remember Ted Heath's attempts to curb inflation with pay caps, leading to the coal strike, the Three Day Week and the 'Who Governs Britain?' election). It was the post-war consensus of full employment and tripartite capitalism coming up against the aftershock of the 1973 Energy Crisis which saw things spiral out of control. Keynesian economics of the time had no answer to what to do when faced with rampant inflation and economic recession at the same time. The attempts to lock down pay deals and wage caps while inflation ran at 15+% just made industrial unrest over pay and conditions inevitable, especially coupled to the economic troubles exposing a lot of deep-seated problems throughout British industry.

In a specifically BL context, it should be remembered that Michael Edwardes was appointed, and given his 'prune the tree, do what you need to do and we'll back you up' brief by the Callaghan government. And it was while Callaghan was still in office that Edwardes demonstrated his carrot-and-stick approach at Speke, to the amazement of much of the trade union movement which simply didn't anticipate a Labour government backing the total closure of a major car factory owned by a nationalised firm. The mood had already shifted, but Callaghan (and Labour) had done too little, too late and run out of time, leading to Mrs. T.

It's interesting to speculate on what would have happened had BL been given a little longer on life support - say if a monetarist Labour government was in power in the early 1980s, or if Harold Musgrove had successfully wrangled the final tranche of funding from Thatcher. The three 'M-cars' (Metro/Maestro/Montego) and the Honda-shared Rovers were all perfectly decent cars on paper. The Austins especially were let down by being merely 'good enough', giving sceptical buyers little reason to opt for them over the competition, and still troubled by erratic build quality, although endemic engineering problems were very rare by that stage. With guaranteed government support through to the end of the 1980s I think BL stood a fair (but far from certain) chance at hauling itself out of the malaise of the 1970s as a significant player in the European mass market with the two-prong Austin/Rover range. BL had acheived a lot with very limited resources and while grappling with a lot of internal problems and external political/economic trouble. Musgrove's initial forward product plan would have essentially secured a second and third generation of 'M-cars' and BL was a much happier, better-run and competent place by 1985 than it had been in 1979.

You can get a sense of how close they were with the early 90s success of the Rover Metro and especially the R8 200/400. The Metro was a competitive car in its class (and, by some measures, still a class leader) despite being an update of a 10-year old design which was hardly cutting edge when it was new. If BL had been backed to produce the AR6 (the truely 'new Metro' project) things could have been even better. The R8 was a superb car which had no design or build quality issues at all in its original form and was absolutely perfectly pitched for its market and price. Had the firm been financed to produce truely new designs on a mass-market scale and price I think they could have pulled it off.

[saaby93]

2xChevrons said:

The mood had already shifted, but Callaghan (and Labour) had done too little, too late and run out of time, leading to Mrs. T.

Wasn't it that Callaghan & co felt that they could do little with the unions as they were the Labour party ( the unions were walking over them) so decided the only way to sort them out was to let the conservatives have a go? They ran a less than wholesome election campaign.

[Mr Tidy]

Dr Gitlin said:

That still happens today. I visited GM's Warren Tech Center last year and if you have a non-GM car you have to go park on the far end of the campus.

Very true - I worked for an American based insurer in the 2000s and as we insured a company based in Munich you can probably guess what the standard issue company car was!

I may not have minded quite so much if the same car had been within the budget we were given in the UK.

[iSore]

The R8 was indeed a great Honda!

And that's all it was, the Austin Rover Group (AAAAAARG!) adding oil leaks and other issues. Seriously, it was a good car and demonstrated that the only way BL could make a good car was to let the Japs do the spadework. The Maestro/Montego proved that they couldn't do it although the late Montego diesel Estates were actually pretty good....right at the very end. The Rover 100 was a curates egg, good in parts only but not as a whole. The Clio showed how small cars were done in 1992.



The early seventies political/unions situation was the result of management/unions still thinking that the world owed us a living/we won the war etc etc. Truly a fascinating era in politics.

[yellowjack]

I recall hiring a Rover 'Metro' in the 1990s. I'm fairly sure it was a 111S.

I hired it from a place in Andover, in the days between me getting my license and buying a car of my own. I thought it was a pretty good little car to be fair. I didn't spend all that long with it, so didn't experience the emotions that come with living with a car long term. But it was a perfectly adequate little car at the very worst. I remember being impressed with it having only 127 miles on the clock at collection too.

Much better than the Sierra I hired from some 'rent-a-wreck' mob in Chatham around the same time. That didin't last to the top of the hill outside their yard before I had to coast back down with the clutch ruined (for which they tried to blame the inexperienced driver with his foot on the pedals). I ended up with an Escort three-door estate as a replacement, and that was a bag of spanners too.

I'm still a Ford fan thrugh-and-through though...

[williamp]

They always sold well, if not ever best sellers. Have a look here:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/95146/best-s...

BL cars 3rd, 4th, 5th 8th and 9th ( and an image of an allegro cornering at-probably - 90mph plus)

1985: metro, montego, maestro 4th, 7th, 10th

1995: 7th and 10th

[saaby93]

williamp said:

They always sold well, if not ever best sellers. Have a look here:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/95146/best-s...

BL cars 3rd, 4th, 5th 8th and 9th ( and an image of an allegro cornering at-probably - 90mph plus)

1985: metro, montego, maestro 4th, 7th, 10th

1995: 7th and 10th

Best-selling cars 1975
Pos. Model Sales
1 Ford Cortina 106,787
2 Ford Escort 103,817
3 BMC Mini 84,688
4 Morris Marina 78,632
5 Austin Allegro 63,339
6 Vauxhall Viva 54,731
7 Hillman Avenger 38,377
8 Triumph Dolomite 30,199
9 Leyland Princess 29,067
10 Hillman Hunter 28,966

75 the hottest summer for a while
recession began to bite
Just prior to the 78/79 winter of discontent when Calaghan let go and Thatcher came in
at what point do the sales figues become german japanese and french?

[Jimmy Recard]

saaby93 said:

Best-selling cars 1975
Pos. Model Sales
1 Ford Cortina 106,787
2 Ford Escort 103,817
3 BMC Mini 84,688
4 Morris Marina 78,632
5 Austin Allegro 63,339
6 Vauxhall Viva 54,731
7 Hillman Avenger 38,377
8 Triumph Dolomite 30,199
9 Leyland Princess 29,067
10 Hillman Hunter 28,966

75 the hottest summer for a while
recession began to bite
Just prior to the 78/79 winter of discontent when Calaghan let go and Thatcher came in
at what point do the sales figues become german japanese and french?

Japanese cars have very rarely been in the top 10 as far as I know, until the Qashqai

[Jimmy Recard]

williamp said:

They always sold well, if not ever best sellers. Have a look here:

http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/car-news/95146/best-s...

BL cars 3rd, 4th, 5th 8th and 9th ( and an image of an allegro cornering at-probably - 90mph plus)

1985: metro, montego, maestro 4th, 7th, 10th

1995: 7th and 10th

1995 it goes:
Ford
Ford
Ford
Vauxhall
Vauxhall
Vauxhall


I remember how much they dominated the sales very well! Obviously they're still the best sellers but not as completely as they were, now the 3-Series, A4 and C-Class have taken over from the Sierra and Cavalier

[saaby93]

Jimmy Recard said:

saaby93 said:

Best-selling cars 1975
Pos. Model Sales
1 Ford Cortina 106,787
2 Ford Escort 103,817
3 BMC Mini 84,688
4 Morris Marina 78,632
5 Austin Allegro 63,339
6 Vauxhall Viva 54,731
7 Hillman Avenger 38,377
8 Triumph Dolomite 30,199
9 Leyland Princess 29,067
10 Hillman Hunter 28,966

75 the hottest summer for a while
recession began to bite
Just prior to the 78/79 winter of discontent when Calaghan let go and Thatcher came in
at what point do the sales figues become german japanese and french?

Japanese cars have very rarely been in the top 10 as far as I know, until the Qashqai

By 85 triumph gone
Best-selling cars 1985
Pos. Model Sales
1 Ford Escort 157,269
2 Vauxhall Cavalier 134,335
3 Ford Fiesta 124,143
4 Austin/MG Metro 118,817
5 Ford Sierra 101,642
6 Vauxhall Astra 76,553
7 Austin/MG Montego 73,955
8 Ford Orion 65,363
9 Vauxhall Nova 61,358
10 Austin/MG Maestro 57,527

By 95 Austion morris gone
Best-selling cars 1995
Pos. Model Sales
1 Ford Escort 137,760
2 Ford Fiesta 129,574
3 Ford Mondeo 118,040
4 Vauxhall Astra 100,709
5 Vauxhall Cavalier 73,978
6 Vauxhall Corsa 72,502
7 Rover 200 68,141
8 Peugeot 306 56,112
9 Renault Clio 52,576
10 Rover 100 52,392

2005 gone VW on the March
Best-selling cars 2005
Pos Model Sales
1 Ford Focus 123,799
2 Vauxhall Astra 108,461
3 Vauxhall Corsa 89,463
4 Ford Fiesta 83,803
5 Volkswagen Golf 67,749
6 Peugeot 206 67,450
7 Ford Mondeo 57,589
8 Renault Clio 56,538
9 Renault Mégane 45,706
10 BMW 3 Series 44,844

Best-selling cars 2015
Pos Model Sales
1 Ford Fiesta 133,434
2 Vauxhall Corsa 92,077
3 Ford Focus 83,816
4 VW Golf 73,409
5 Nissan Qashqai 60,814
6 Volkswagen Polo 54,900
7 Vauxhall Astra 52,703
8 Audi A3 47,653
9 MINI 47,076
10 Vauxhall Mokka 45,399

[Buster73]

I remember when the Metro was launched , they made a big thing of 12,000 mile service intervals.

Except they used basically the same engine and definitely the same oil filter that was used in the Mini which had a 6000 mile service interval.

[Hammer67]

Buster73 said:

I remember when the Metro was launched , they made a big thing of 12,000 mile service intervals.

Except they used basically the same engine and definitely the same oil filter that was used in the Mini which had a 6000 mile service interval.

In a similar vein, I was working at a main dealer when one of the marques we held went from annual to Biannual servicing.
All the stock cars went in to the shop for modifications to move to the new regime.
New oil. Nothing else.

[2xChevrons]

Hammer67 said:

Buster73 said:

I remember when the Metro was launched , they made a big thing of 12,000 mile service intervals.

Except they used basically the same engine and definitely the same oil filter that was used in the Mini which had a 6000 mile service interval.

In a similar vein, I was working at a main dealer when one of the marques we held went from annual to Biannual servicing.
All the stock cars went in to the shop for modifications to move to the new regime.
New oil. Nothing else.

That's not quite fair. The Metro's A+ engines were almost wholly re-engineered from the original A-Series, with much finer tolerances and a significantly higher standard of metallurgy throughout. They also had more accurate and durable SU-HIF carburettors, spark plugs and breakers with long-life electrodes (and then electronic ignition on the 1275cc engines from 1985), a larger-capacity oil filter (although interchangeable with the Mini spin-on unit) and 10W-40 oil rather than 20W-50. The proof of the pudding is that an A+ engine generally lasts about 50% more miles than a standard A.

[AW111]

2xChevrons said:

That's not quite fair. The Metro's A+ engines were almost wholly re-engineered from the original A-Series, with much finer tolerances and a significantly higher standard of metallurgy throughout. They also had more accurate and durable SU-HIF carburettors, spark plugs and breakers with long-life electrodes (and then electronic ignition on the 1275cc engines from 1985), a larger-capacity oil filter (although interchangeable with the Mini spin-on unit) and 10W-40 oil rather than 20W-50. The proof of the pudding is that an A+ engine generally lasts about 50% more miles than a standard A.

How would you compare the A+ with the Datsun A12 / A15 versions?

[lee_erm]

My only experience of anything from Longbridge aside from 60s stuff is an old MG ZR I bought for £500. The engine in it was an utter peach. The gearshift was perfect, all the controls were nicely weighted, the seats were good. It was a better car than a Polo/Fiesta/Saxo from the early 90s to early 2000's.

Imagine if things at Rover had gone diffently and Rover had had a reasonable sum to spend on development of the 25/ZR.