JD Classics, what have they been up to?

[cardigankid]

Can he prove that he and JDC entered a contract whereby JDC would use its judgement to select and buy cars on his behalf for investment purposes. If they did what would they be paid for it? Car dealers live by making profits out of selling cars. Not by helping people for altruistic reasons.

More importantly, why was this man buying cars? If he did not know what he was buying and why he was buying it. If he did not personally want the cars, then he is a dipstick who richly deserves to be parted from his £40m.

I do not think that it is appropriate to treat car dealers as if they are stockbrokers. I have never bought a car from JDC. I know people who have. I regard them as a company who sell rare Jaguars at premium prices. All classics have been restored, or, bluntly , buggered around with. Greater or smaller parts of them have been recreated. I would be extremely cautious about buying high priced cars under these circumstances. I do not believe that an Aston Martin DB5 is worth £750k in today’s money, but if people choose to pay that, fine. It is their call. But you cannot expect a dealer to guarantee that value.

As far as real stockbrokers are concerned let me assure you that they sell shares they own or will profit from the sale of, they puff shares they have holdings in. Every type of chicanery takes place. Caveat Emptor. This man is a fool and has only himself to blame.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

cardigankid said:

Can he prove that he and JDC entered a contract whereby JDC would use its judgement to select and buy cars on his behalf for investment purposes. If they did what would they be paid for it? Car dealers live by making profits out of selling cars. Not by helping people for altruistic reasons.....

.......This man is a fool and has only himself to blame.

Norfolkandchance said:

Absolutely not a lawyer and haven't read every word but my reading is that the claimant thought JD Classics was buying and selling on his behalf (and to my untrained eye the email trail seems to suggest that the had agreed this) with a plan to split the profit.

Plenty of people will trot out the "fool and his money" line, perhaps out of jealousy over someone with the acumen to generate a £60M business. Plenty of smart people have been conned before, plenty of them will again.

[cardigankid]

All credit to the man for building up a £60m business. That does not mean that he knows everything about everything. If he chose to buy high value classic cars then, as in his previous business, he takes the gain or the loss. Nobody guarantees profit, not stockbrokers, financial advisers, timeshare salesmen, investment trusts, merchant banks, the Pru, men in pubs and certainly not car dealers. At most they offer an optimistic prediction of potential gain. Surely this man is not naive enough to believe that everything in the classic car business is above board? In reality, he has been led by emotion, optimism, encouragement and greed to believe that he would make a pile out of this. When he didn't he has gone to lawyers in the modern claims conscious manner and tried to work out some way he can recover his money from JDC. They are dealers. You buy a car, you take your chance. If you don't like that, buy a new car and get a manufacturers warranty and a guaranteed minimum value in four years time.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

cardigankid said:

All credit to the man for building up a £60m business. That does not mean that he knows everything about everything.

It would appear neither did he, so he took professional advice from a supposedly trusted company and struck a deal. The case here isn't that he lost money on an investment, it's that he was ripped off good and proper.

Try and think of it another way, a rich old spinster is hoodwinked into spending £50k on some snake oil super duper double glazing for her retirement bungalow. Only problem is the spivs who sold her them charged £50k for £5k's worth of everest's finest and marked them up because she wasn't to know what she was looking at.

Still, caveat emptor eh?

[lowdrag]

Reading between the lines of the original Telegraph article he must also have made some substantial profits too, so the loss is even more staggering. Anyone who purchased an XKSS in 2009 would have a healthy multi-million profit today. The last one sold for about £14 million I believe. But it does seem that he was a lamb to the slaughter and didn't really know a lot about classic cars. If it was my money I would be looking at values and double-checking myself, but he fell into the arms of a second-hand car dealer and says he got ripped off. Caveat emptor or fraud? Well, the instance of the AC Aceca would indicate the latter but we know not the cost/value of the other purchases.

I have seen so many instances of fraud and improper advice in the Jaguar world over the years; chicken wire and paper covering rust holes, cars with the suspension put on the wrong sides, an engine rebuilt using tractor pistons because they were the only ones that the fraudster could find at the right size, so the moment the client used this sports car the engine self-destructed - it goes on ad nauseam; and whenever there potentially is big money to be made greed tends to obscure judgement. Financial services, double glazing, solar panels - the world is full of scam artists, and now we shall find out if the court feels that a second hand car dealer is an honest man or a fraudster. I do happen to know that the plaintiff fell out with another big Jaguar specialist over a restoration by the way.

Reams were written about Stanley Mann a few years back, and I am sure this case will fill a few pages too.

[Norfolkandchance]

cardigankid said:

All credit to the man for building up a £60m business. That does not mean that he knows everything about everything. If he chose to buy high value classic cars then, as in his previous business, he takes the gain or the loss. Nobody guarantees profit, not stockbrokers, financial advisers, timeshare salesmen, investment trusts, merchant banks, the Pru, men in pubs and certainly not car dealers. At most they offer an optimistic prediction of potential gain. Surely this man is not naive enough to believe that everything in the classic car business is above board? In reality, he has been led by emotion, optimism, encouragement and greed to believe that he would make a pile out of this. When he didn't he has gone to lawyers in the modern claims conscious manner and tried to work out some way he can recover his money from JDC. They are dealers. You buy a car, you take your chance. If you don't like that, buy a new car and get a manufacturers warranty and a guaranteed minimum value in four years time.

I agree with this as a general rule but in this case it appears from the legal documents he was being actively lied to and mislead, rather than optimistically advised. Certainly it appears to me that he had good reason to think they were operating a particular type of relationship which they weren't in at least some of the cases.

If you asked your stockbroker's advice and he said "buy shares in firm x, they are £100 each and bound to go up" then you are taking your risk, and maybe the "bound to" was over-selling. But this, at least in the case of the AC, seems to be "Buy shares in firm x, they are £100 each, I'll purchase them on your behalf on the open market for £100" and then the stockbroker actually selling you his personal shares in x, which he has just bought for £40 each, for £100 each.

[GoodOlBoy]

I've read the article and I'm not clear whether the £9 million represents an overall loss or is the amount he feels he's been cheated out of, which may not be the same thing.

The case seems to revolve around the validity or otherwise of the agreement the two parties had. Mr Tuke claims that JD Classics were acting as brokers for a fee of 10%. JD Classics claim there was no such agreement.


"Sean Brannigan QC, for Mr Tuke, said the businessman is determined to prove that Mr Hood is a 'serial fraudster who has consistently lied about the provenance, authenticity and value of the cars with which the parties dealt over many years.'

Mr Brannigan claimed Mr Hood invented fictitious buyers and sellers in order to hoodwink Mr Tuke "

JD Classics legal team tried to have the case thrown out ....

"However Mr Justice Julian Knowles said Mr Tuke 'has demonstrated that he has at least a realistic prospect of prevailing on his claim against JD Classics.'

Emails between Mr Tuke and Mr Hood, he said, was 'consistent' with JD Classics having acted as the businessman's agent in return for a simple 10 per cent commission on any profits made on car sales."

The subject of another JD Classics thread, the Bruce McLaren E Type, has now been sold.

[Bobo W]

So the gentleman concerned accrues £60m from the sale of his company which would seem the result of careful financial planning to build a company that big and then goes and spends 66% of the proceeds on one asset type which strikes me as very poor financial planning irrespective of this case. Something just doesn't add up.

[Perseverant]

Aspects of jealousy, ignorance and greed here, I fear. Yes, JD Classics are top end dealers, but to say that restoration means "buggered about with" is ridiculous. I had a good look round their workshop and premises some years ago when I bought my XK from the bargain basement there. I was impressed by the whole organisation and found everyone I spoke to helpful and polite, including Derek Hood. Whilst it was clear that many cars there were luridly expensive and in some cases would be seen as hedges against inflation or as profitable investments, there seemed a sense of enthusiasm about actually using classic cars. I'd done my homework and knew what I was buying, and yes, they did make a profit - that's how business works. I can't afford to go on expensive tours or holidays but I've done many miles now in the car, I reckon it's kept its value and is great fun.

[mph]

Bobo W said:

So the gentleman concerned accrues £60m from the sale of his company which would seem the result of careful financial planning to build a company that big and then goes and spends 66% of the proceeds on one asset type which strikes me as very poor financial planning irrespective of this case. Something just doesn't add up.

You're right, if I was in his situation I'd spend a much larger percentage on classic cars.

[gothatway]

Article said:

The High Court heard he was “not overly impressed” with returns on standard investments

I wonder how much research he put into selecting his "standard investments", and who he trusted for advice on them.

[cardigankid]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

cardigankid said:

All credit to the man for building up a £60m business. That does not mean that he knows everything about everything.

It would appear neither did he, so he took professional advice from a supposedly trusted company and struck a deal. The case here isn't that he lost money on an investment, it's that he was ripped off good and proper.

Try and think of it another way, a rich old spinster is hoodwinked into spending £50k on some snake oil super duper double glazing for her retirement bungalow. Only problem is the spivs who sold her them charged £50k for £5k's worth of everest's finest and marked them up because she wasn't to know what she was looking at.

Still, caveat emptor eh?

You cannot compare a rich old spinster with a self made multimillionaire. It is a completely specious comparison. The law does not exist to guarantee rich people that their deals will always come up trumps.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

cardigankid said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

cardigankid said:

All credit to the man for building up a £60m business. That does not mean that he knows everything about everything.

It would appear neither did he, so he took professional advice from a supposedly trusted company and struck a deal. The case here isn't that he lost money on an investment, it's that he was ripped off good and proper.

Try and think of it another way, a rich old spinster is hoodwinked into spending £50k on some snake oil super duper double glazing for her retirement bungalow. Only problem is the spivs who sold her them charged £50k for £5k's worth of everest's finest and marked them up because she wasn't to know what she was looking at.

Still, caveat emptor eh?

You cannot compare a rich old spinster with a self made multimillionaire. It is a completely specious comparison. The law does not exist to guarantee rich people that their deals will always come up trumps.

Of course it doesn't, it does however have plenty to do with people fraudulently misrepresenting financial transactions.

And in the eyes of the law you certainly can compare a rich old spinster with a self made millionaire, why would it matter their occupation? Your argument is akin to saying a nightclub bouncer can't be a victim of GBH as he should be able to handle himself.

And that's little idiotic don't you think?

[lowdrag]

GoodOlBoy said:

The subject of another JD Classics thread, the Bruce McLaren E Type, has now been sold.

Then I hope the new owner is pointed in the direction of this thread then:-

http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1...

The real specialists there have noted a considerable number of errors. If one is paying a premium over the normal price to a supposedly top-rate Jaguar specialist one expects to see a correctly restored car.

[mph]

lowdrag said:

Then I hope the new owner is pointed in the direction of this thread then:-

http://forum.etypeuk.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1...

The real specialists there have noted a considerable number of errors. If one is paying a premium over the normal price to a supposedly top-rate Jaguar specialist one expects to see a correctly restored car.

Hopefully the history and provenance have been re-constructed more accurately than the car

[aeropilot]

lowdrag said:

Reading between the lines of the original Telegraph article he must also have made some substantial profits too, so the loss is even more staggering. Anyone who purchased an XKSS in 2009 would have a healthy multi-million profit today. The last one sold for about £14 million I believe. But it does seem that he was a lamb to the slaughter and didn't really know a lot about classic cars. If it was my money I would be looking at values and double-checking myself, but he fell into the arms of a second-hand car dealer and says he got ripped off. Caveat emptor or fraud? Well, the instance of the AC Aceca would indicate the latter but we know not the cost/value of the other purchases.

I agree, a case of 6 of one half a dozen of the other......

He was certainly massively naïve in his belief that a 2nd hand car dealer (no matter how nice the premises and spiel) would be totally above board when dangling LOTS of cash in front of his eyes.........clearly the man had never ever watched an episode of Minder
So, lack of due diligence on his part.

However, no excuse for being fleeced or defrauded in the way it maybe that he has.


Given JD's very prominent extensive sponsoring of the Members meeting last weekend, this will indeed be one to watch

[EXKAY120]

Am i right in saying the "said firm from Essex " have also something to do with the racing/running of the Jaguar heritage cars ? i hope not.....

Edited by EXKAY120 on Friday 23 March 09:07

[Turbotechnic]

EXKAY120 said:

Am i right in saying the "said firm from Essex " have also something to do with the racing/running of the Jaguar heritage cars ? i hope not.....

Edited by EXKAY120 on Friday 23 March 09:07

I believe Jaguar heritage no longer have any dealings with JD.

[lowdrag]

Here are couple of shots I took there a couple of years back. I wasn't allowed to sit in nor open the bonnet of any car.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/149566328@N08/03xB5b

https://www.flickr.com/gp/149566328@N08/399vn4

https://www.flickr.com/gp/149566328@N08/no9bg9

https://www.flickr.com/gp/149566328@N08/GXc0W0

[EXKAY120]

Thanks Tony,