JD Classics, what have they been up to?
Discussion
silentbrown said:
DonkeyApple said:
In some ways, he comes across as a total mug desperate to buy his way into high society at any cost. And in a fleeting moment of sobriety found that Hood had acted as principle not agent as per their agreement and saw a way of getting some money back.
I think you're being a little uncharitable there. Charme also had the wool well and truly pulled over their eyes by Hood. The entire business of JDC seems to have been built on fraud.The Administrators said:
(we) have rarely, if ever, seen a fraud which is as multi-faceted or as wide-ranging as Mr. Hood's fraud is now thought to be..
The thing is that was the 'beef; at over paying fair market? In which case, absolutely no one forced him not to use his education, wisdom, wits, life experience or sizeable financial backing to execute a single element of research as to what he was being offered? unless Hood had an array of shills to back the mis valuation then Tuke is a victim of his own stupidity in this regard. Or, if he paid fair market for the goods then in many ways he is not the victim but the previous owner who sold well below market is and Tuke was aggrieved at not getting a slice of that scam rather than being bilked on a deal.
Some of those transactions look more like the victim was some old dear or buffer talked out of a valuable asset well below market by Hood and Tuke's ire was that he wasn't cut in on the action but sold the asset at fair value like a normal customer. It does read on some of the deals that it wasn't the scamming he was upset with but that he wasn't cut in on them and subsequently went for his share of the action when he discovered Hood had been acting as principle.
I;m not sure that I would urinate on either of them if they were on fire, in the cold light of day. It takes two to tango and it is borderline impossible to believe that Tuke was some thicko getting rinsed through no fault of his own. The whole thing is a complete shower but then that's the used car market in a nutshell. Wholly unregulated so practices explicitly outlawed in regulated environments are rife and quite often those heavily involved in them are the very people who have been banned from regulated markets.
MarkwG said:
I suspect it's the human fallacy of believing that expertise in one area met with massive reward for that expertise equates to a similar level of expertise in something totally unrelated. I understand in his chosen field of engineering he was very successful & held in high regard. It could be argued, perhaps, that he fell into the trap of thinking his business acumen was innate & the key to his previous business; whereas it may have been because his engineering successes where well timed to hit a rising market, & his monetary success was a result of that.
Yup, that certainly would be the first case of that happening. It's very common in my market for smart, self made people to have absolutely zero brains when it comes to my market. I can reel off a handful of household names, geniuses of their field and excellent businessmen who have lost millions through me because they aren't interested in listening and know everything. On some level you do begin to realise that some success comes from simply charging at something and gambling everything, then winning enough to build a good team to take it further. While on the other hand, could you imagine someone like Philip Green paying more than something was worth, not just once but again and again and again? 
DonkeyApple said:
MarkwG said:
I suspect it's the human fallacy of believing that expertise in one area met with massive reward for that expertise equates to a similar level of expertise in something totally unrelated. I understand in his chosen field of engineering he was very successful & held in high regard. It could be argued, perhaps, that he fell into the trap of thinking his business acumen was innate & the key to his previous business; whereas it may have been because his engineering successes where well timed to hit a rising market, & his monetary success was a result of that.
Yup, that certainly would be the first case of that happening. It's very common in my market for smart, self made people to have absolutely zero brains when it comes to my market. I can reel off a handful of household names, geniuses of their field and excellent businessmen who have lost millions through me because they aren't interested in listening and know everything. On some level you do begin to realise that some success comes from simply charging at something and gambling everything, then winning enough to build a good team to take it further. While on the other hand, could you imagine someone like Philip Green paying more than something was worth, not just once but again and again and again? a8hex said:
It's also possible that it's naivety, his business was in medical equipment and perhaps he'd not come across people deliberately setting out to rip him off. Maybe there are still some arenas where people do business in good faith.
Indeed but it won’t easily be found hanging around expensive old cars. I’m not going to be buying into ‘niaivity’ at this level, size, frequency and duration but I’d be willing to buy into an argument of wilful stupidity. Out of interest, does Hood get an opportunity to contest this or is it done and he can move on with larging it overseas with all the others and their winnings?
silentbrown said:
DonkeyApple said:
In some ways, he comes across as a total mug desperate to buy his way into high society at any cost.
I think you're being a little uncharitable there. Charme also had the wool well and truly pulled over their eyes by Hood.havoc said:
This, in a nutshell, is why I despair of a society that values the ability to 'sell' to other people above almost any other skill.
Very true. Have you noticed the number of laws and regulations in most industries in an attempt to curb that human nature? For example, the intense regulation in pharmaceuticals and medical care to ensure the natural antics of some men when faced with money are curved as best as possible. Or the regulations around financial services, especially to do with the extreme dangers of a principal behaving as agent. A society built on the principle of making profit must have sales and the nature of sales is that it must be rewarded. But with that comes man’s dishonesty and big money mixed with lax regulation will always, always result in fraud and deception.
DonkeyApple said:
Very true. Have you noticed the number of laws and regulations in most industries in an attempt to curb that human nature? For example, the intense regulation in pharmaceuticals and medical care to ensure the natural antics of some men when faced with money are curved as best as possible. Or the regulations around financial services, especially to do with the extreme dangers of a principal behaving as agent.
A society built on the principle of making profit must have sales and the nature of sales is that it must be rewarded. But with that comes man’s dishonesty and big money mixed with lax regulation will always, always result in fraud and deception.
A society built on the principle of specialisation of labour must have sales, I for one wouldn't like to live in any other kind. A society built on the principle of making profit must have sales and the nature of sales is that it must be rewarded. But with that comes man’s dishonesty and big money mixed with lax regulation will always, always result in fraud and deception.
DonkeyApple said:
A society built on the principle of making profit must have sales and the nature of sales is that it must be rewarded.
If they couldn't sell themselves they wouldn't be very good salesmen. So sadly, they are paid more than people who do more useful things but can't sell them.
a8hex said:
It's also possible that it's naivety, his business was in medical equipment and perhaps he'd not come across people deliberately setting out to rip him off. Maybe there are still some arenas where people do business in good faith.
I agree.Charme and their professional auditors carried out due diligence, yet they, along with Jaguar Cars, numerous high profile organisations and hundreds of knowledgeable customers were taken in by Hood.
The professionals failed to uncover the fraudulent dealings and yet somehow Tuke is portrayed as an idiot because he didn't succeed where they failed.
I really don't understand the level of vitriol being aimed at him.
GoodOlBoy said:
I really don't understand the level of vitriol being aimed at him.
I'm not vitriolic, but he did what naïve investors do in any market, and that's to fail to do his research. Regardless of what Hood told him, he should have known that the values he was being given/promised were simply fantastical.
I also resent people buying classic cars as commodities apparently without any associated passion. They have taken the entire industry in a depressing direction, IMO.
a8hex said:
DonkeyApple said:
A society built on the principle of making profit must have sales and the nature of sales is that it must be rewarded.
If they couldn't sell themselves they wouldn't be very good salesmen. So sadly, they are paid more than people who do more useful things but can't sell them.
Sometimes. Are the shop salespeople paid more than the manager? Does a vacuum salesman earn more than James Dyson? Does an average estate agent earn more than a good sparky?
There will be mechanics earning more than car salesmen. Does your average telesales person earn more than your average solicitor?
And with regards to Hood, the courts have just decided that he wasn’t a salesman at all but something else entirely. And Tuke looks like he probably earned more than his salesmen and his role was arguably far more useful to all the poor buggers who needed his product but he needed salespeople to get that product out ahead of competitors.
Sales has a bad name because it has such a broad definition and number of roles from some of the least educated to some of the most and remuneration varies as wildly.
Doofus said:
I also resent people buying classic cars as commodities apparently without any associated passion. They have taken the entire industry in a depressing direction, IMO.
I understood that he was an enthusiast, but perhaps I'm misinformed. Whatever - no point in giving him the benefit of the doubt Investors, and investment cars, represent a tiny fraction of the classic car market and the vast majority of us are virtually unaffected by cars that change hands for hundreds of thousands.
Most of the cars I would consider owning are as affordable now as they ever were and most of the owners are enthusiasts, not investors. Some may even be both.
GoodOlBoy said:
Investors, and investment cars, represent a tiny fraction of the classic car market and the vast majority of us are virtually unaffected by cars that change hands for hundreds of thousands.
There is a proven trickle-down effect, and it does impinge upon what, a few years ago, would have been called (had the expression existed then) 'everyman classics'.Whenever classic cars are seen and hyped as The Next Big Thing, money pours in, and values rise. As was said in the court paperwork, it's very difficult to ascertain an accurate value for a classic and, more often than not, value is based upon how much others have sold for. That inevitably moves the market beyond enthusiasts and into 'investor' territory before another periodic 'correction'. But, as with corrections in the housing market, it never returns to where it was.
Dr Jekyll said:
A society built on the principle of specialisation of labour must have sales, I for one wouldn't like to live in any other kind.
"Must"???Could you provide some reasoning behind that?
(Not coming across all socialist/communist, however I don't see ANY connection, let alone a 'must'. Sales is only relevant in a monied economy driven by scarcity. Take away scarcity (or the majority of it) and the motive behind 'sales' disappears.
DonkeyApple said:
Sometimes. Are the shop salespeople paid more than the manager? Does a vacuum salesman earn more than James Dyson? Does an average estate agent earn more than a good sparky?
There will be mechanics earning more than car salesmen. Does your average telesales person earn more than your average solicitor?
Sales has a bad name because it has such a broad definition and number of roles from some of the least educated to some of the most and remuneration varies as wildly.
Your last sentence is accurate, however you're comparing apples with oranges in the two lines above...a poor salesman is comparable to the secretary in a law firm, a top mechanic may earn more than an inexperienced or poor salesperson, but not a top salesperson. Overlay the standard distribution curves for pay for each profession, and only those requiring a LOT of study and effort (medicine, law, MAYBE accountancy) will sit to the right of 'sales' (inc. account management and the 'selling' roles in financial services).
And then you've got, as you suggest, those who aren't classified as 'sales', but got where they are through the same skill-set - the ability to persuade others to part with (lots of) their cash (or their time, or other things they shouldn't be letting go so easily/quickly). Politicians, for example...
Doofus said:
There is a proven trickle-down effect, and it does impinge upon what, a few years ago, would have been called (had the expression existed then) 'everyman classics'.
Whenever classic cars are seen and hyped as The Next Big Thing, money pours in, and values rise. As was said in the court paperwork, it's very difficult to ascertain an accurate value for a classic and, more often than not, value is based upon how much others have sold for. That inevitably moves the market beyond enthusiasts and into 'investor' territory before another periodic 'correction'. But, as with corrections in the housing market, it never returns to where it was.
2008 was the big shift change from what I saw. Money moved out of traditional investments into classic/historic cars at a high rate. Why the rest of society was crapping themselves, those with plenty of cash swept in, that started the upshift in values at much faster rates, and that's what drove people like Tuke to look to this market. Whenever classic cars are seen and hyped as The Next Big Thing, money pours in, and values rise. As was said in the court paperwork, it's very difficult to ascertain an accurate value for a classic and, more often than not, value is based upon how much others have sold for. That inevitably moves the market beyond enthusiasts and into 'investor' territory before another periodic 'correction'. But, as with corrections in the housing market, it never returns to where it was.
Ever since 2008 it's been the perfect conditions for a conman to make a fortune, with people who don't know their arse from their elbow getting into a market that is not regulated.
You can see from the Group C deal that Mr Tuke is starting to smell a rat, but his bad decisions and requirement for cash to settle a tax bill pushed him to make a risky move. I feel sorry for the guy, he needed a good guy who knew the market on his side, he thought Hood was that guy based on the profile that JD had garnered.
Is Hood being prosecuted as a fraudster in a criminal case?
Some excellent posts on here. None of us know Tukes financial affairs, but it’s said that he sold the med co for over £60 million quid in circa 2007, no idea how many ££ millions he would have been left with after tax etc. I can’t recall how many £ millions, he spent @ JDs, but by late 2010 ish, he “ Is Short of ££ Cash “ for a tax bill ??
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