Time to stop plugging classics as investments?
Discussion
I've had a soft spot for Mondials since I read about (in FAST LANE!) a gunmetal grey one being ordered by someone who didn't want a shouty red Ferrari. In the article they were having a very discreet stereo installed at a time when most aftermarket stereos (sorry "ICE") was very showy with extra graphic equalizers and so on (it was the '80s). The two most potentially shouty cars I've owned (ironically, given the conversation, both Porsches) were dark grey and dark blue for the same reason.
So I'd quite like a sober-coloured Mondial.
So I'd quite like a sober-coloured Mondial.
I fell off my chair when I saw next week's auction estimate for this in a magazine. I thought they had added an extra 0, so went onto their website to check, but no it really is £120,000 - £160,000!
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25502/lot/20/
I struggle to imagine how that would represent value for money to the new owner.
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25502/lot/20/
I struggle to imagine how that would represent value for money to the new owner.
Raygun said:
But a lot of people would still prefer the Ferrari. To a lot of people, me included a Porsche in most cases will never be as special as a Ferrari.
But there are Ferraris, and then there are Ferraris. A proper one is a 512BB (or any Boxer), a 250GTE, 612, a 500 Superfast.....alas these are lots of money. Lucky guy to have a 430 - like the 360 and 355 before they're pretty serious cars. But the Dino and 308GTB are still extremely pretty cars and as such justify a hefty price tag. The GT4 was a bit of a pig but almost works but the Mondial? No. All I see there is rust and old Ferrari dramas and expense in a car that's not very good looking and not fast enough to pull away from a well driven 320d. No ta. When they were 8 grand, maybe. £35'000? Nah, you're alright thanks.
Edited by Touring442 on Friday 29th November 10:55
One of the curiosities of this whole topic is that the wider British public now seems to think that classic car prices only ever go up. I suppose they compare it to long term investments in property or the stock market. I guess if you keep a classic car for 20 odd years, then they’re right, but we and the industry tend to look more short-term. Maybe we should all lighten up a bit!
LotusOmega375D said:
Something odd about that Mondial. The black windscreen surround and red sills aren’t correct. Must have been resprayed wrongly. Not good for an alleged 16,000 miler.
I'm glad it was not just me - those doors don't seem to sit right, especially at the bottom. I suspect, as you say, there's a case of a blow over with the rosso and a day with the T cut going on.
Pity, I really like the Mondial - I recall looking at them at JCT600 as kid, when my mate's dad worked there. i don't get the hate for them, especially the convertible with the rear buttressed hood.
LotusOmega375D said:
I fell off my chair when I saw next week's auction estimate for this in a magazine. I thought they had added an extra 0, so went onto their website to check, but no it really is £120,000 - £160,000!
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25502/lot/20/
I struggle to imagine how that would represent value for money to the new owner.
I guess its an ultimate version but even so....crazy!https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25502/lot/20/
I struggle to imagine how that would represent value for money to the new owner.
I can think of a lot of other things I'd rather have.
LotusOmega375D said:
I fell off my chair when I saw next week's auction estimate for this in a magazine. I thought they had added an extra 0, so went onto their website to check, but no it really is £120,000 - £160,000!
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25502/lot/20/
I struggle to imagine how that would represent value for money to the new owner.
It won't sell. This did for $322k: https://rmsothebys.com/en/auctions/BW13/The-Bruce-...https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25502/lot/20/
I struggle to imagine how that would represent value for money to the new owner.
If you buy what you really like while its affordably out of fashion, and perhaps at the bottom end of the second hand market depreciation curve, and it eventually rises - great you'll feel a little warmer about mitigating some of the costs of your hobby. If its value does nothing - no great loss - but you've had cheap fun - simples.
Touring442 said:
Raygun said:
But a lot of people would still prefer the Ferrari. To a lot of people, me included a Porsche in most cases will never be as special as a Ferrari.
But there are Ferraris, and then there are Ferraris. A proper one is a 512BB (or any Boxer), a 250GTE, 612, a 500 Superfast.....alas these are lots of money. Lucky guy to have a 430 - like the 360 and 355 before they're pretty serious cars. But the Dino and 308GTB are still extremely pretty cars and as such justify a hefty price tag. The GT4 was a bit of a pig but almost works but the Mondial? No. All I see there is rust and old Ferrari dramas and expense in a car that's not very good looking and not fast enough to pull away from a well driven 320d. No ta. When they were 8 grand, maybe. £35'000? Nah, you're alright thanks.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 29th November 10:55
I am new to this thread and have gone through all nine pages of postings in the past half hour or so. I have never purchased a car (among a couple of dozen that I've owned) as an investment. I purchase cars because I like them and I find something special about them. And several that I've paid to have restored to some degree will never (in my lifetime) repay me monetarily, but the joy I have gotten from each car I've chosen is worth more than their investment potential. At least in my recently restored and modified 1972 De Tomaso Pantera's case. I'm no longer upside down for the first time in my 18 year ownership as their values have risen enough to cover what I've invested. Six years or so ago, I had simply given up driving it as just starting it was always an adventure, it was uncomfortable due to some changes the previous owner had made, and I had purchased a 5.0L Jag XKR that was quicker, more comfortable, more nimble, started everytime, was reliable, and didn't care about our 110*F heat in the summer or the incessant traffic in Los Angeles. I, couldn't part with it, however, because it was what I thought to be the most attractive example of 70's Italian wedge styling. So, I set out to make it the car I would want to drive rather than dreading it. Fuel injection, 500+hp, new supportive seats and a whole interior slathered in leather, new high quality respray were just some of the improvements, all of which have probably devalued its ultimate value by straying from originality, but which allow me to drive it every weekend with a gleeful smile on my face. I have a 1968 Pontiac GTO coming back from a frame off restoration next month, and I'm giddy thinking about it. The GTO with its Endura plastic front bumper changed the way cars would be built forever forward, and its looks kept me awake in boring high school for 3 years as I'd be drawing it in class.
Buying for investment only is a dangerous game; buying for the passion and joy it gives you is more rewarding.
Buying for investment only is a dangerous game; buying for the passion and joy it gives you is more rewarding.
Totally agree with tberg, im guessing this guy aint hard up , but the point is only dick heads buy as investments lol
Dealers completely different ball game, they are in it as a bushiness and need to make a profit, but for a genuine petrol head all old cars are a money pit!
We buy em and run em cos they put a smile on our faces when they are behaving them selfs, and we still love them when they play up because all old cars do that and have done since they were bleeding new!
Put some pics up of the GTO when its home, epic looking motor, Warren Oats in Two Lane Black Top, and the one thats burst out of a garden at the start of Beretta , with Robert Blake, Ram Air 111 and a M22 , and i suppose the other less well known GTO was a pretty car,
No not the rice burner!
Dealers completely different ball game, they are in it as a bushiness and need to make a profit, but for a genuine petrol head all old cars are a money pit!
We buy em and run em cos they put a smile on our faces when they are behaving them selfs, and we still love them when they play up because all old cars do that and have done since they were bleeding new!
Put some pics up of the GTO when its home, epic looking motor, Warren Oats in Two Lane Black Top, and the one thats burst out of a garden at the start of Beretta , with Robert Blake, Ram Air 111 and a M22 , and i suppose the other less well known GTO was a pretty car,
No not the rice burner!
newsatten,
Will do. Everyday I get a new list from the shop of parts they need to put the car back together (I'm supplying parts), so that hopefully, the last of them arrive this week. Then the body goes back on the frame and preparation for paint. I think the end of the year is optimistic, but certainly by the end of January, it will be back. My youngest son (28) who has never shown an interest in a car outside of a Tesla 3, has told me he can't wait to drive it (if I'll let him) when it comes back. The fact that it has triggered some appreciation of classic automobiles is a victory in itself.
Pictures coming as soon as I see it more complete.
Will do. Everyday I get a new list from the shop of parts they need to put the car back together (I'm supplying parts), so that hopefully, the last of them arrive this week. Then the body goes back on the frame and preparation for paint. I think the end of the year is optimistic, but certainly by the end of January, it will be back. My youngest son (28) who has never shown an interest in a car outside of a Tesla 3, has told me he can't wait to drive it (if I'll let him) when it comes back. The fact that it has triggered some appreciation of classic automobiles is a victory in itself.
Pictures coming as soon as I see it more complete.
I've been obsessed with cars as long as I can remember, and over the years I've had a lot of cars, many now deemed classic.
Thankfully, most likely by pure luck, I managed to pick a lot of cars that are now very popular
As long as people keep talking up the investment value, I'm happy!
Thankfully, most likely by pure luck, I managed to pick a lot of cars that are now very popular
As long as people keep talking up the investment value, I'm happy!
LotusOmega375D said:
One of the curiosities of this whole topic is that the wider British public now seems to think that classic car prices only ever go up. I suppose they compare it to long term investments in property or the stock market. I guess if you keep a classic car for 20 odd years, then they’re right, but we and the industry tend to look more short-term. Maybe we should all lighten up a bit!
Essentially I agree, a car can never be an asset in the same way that stocks or property can - no interest, no dividend. Sure, if you buy and hold for long enough you are likely to enjoy some appreciation, but it still has to be repaired and maintained. Even fairly modest old cars can cost a lot to keep up to the mark, and in the case of something exotic that realistically means at least a few grand a year.
Which over a 20 year period can add up to rather a lot, probably more than any capital appreciation.
I'm afraid that I tend to look rather at the other side of the coin. I would, nor could, imagine at the turn of this century that the world would change so quickly. Will our progeny actually be driving cars in 20 years? Will indeed there be petrol stations in the vicinity to fuel them, mechanics to service them, and spare parts available to keep them running? I think that everyone knows that my speciality is Jaguars, and we are very well served as regards any spares we need, but, as times change, will we be able to buy tyres, buy - I don't know - wiper blades - for example? These are just a few of my fears for the future, a future I shall not be here to see it must be said, but nevertheless something people will have to face. So what will become of my cars? Museums - if they exist still - will be stuffed with cars given away by families who have no idea what else to do with them. For who will buy them? Take my E-type; one can say that it is rare, being a 1961 car, but on the other side of the coin it is but only one E-type of 72,000 made. Taken in that context it is hardly rare, now is it?
I have always used and driven my cars because I love the sensations, love the sounds of fury, the raw behaviour compared to our computer-controlled modern transports, but I have never thought of them as investments - ever. They are my hobby, my piece of the past, my youth, and my joy. I am getting older, and physically slowly failing, so I drive the cars less than I used to, but just the fact, on a cold but sunny morning like today, to open the garage and to see them there is worth more than gold, because I see not just art forms, but memories, friendships, friends now passed, rallies, hill climbs, track days, and memories that money can't buy.
But my kids can't. My memories will die with me and so perhaps will my cars.
I have always used and driven my cars because I love the sensations, love the sounds of fury, the raw behaviour compared to our computer-controlled modern transports, but I have never thought of them as investments - ever. They are my hobby, my piece of the past, my youth, and my joy. I am getting older, and physically slowly failing, so I drive the cars less than I used to, but just the fact, on a cold but sunny morning like today, to open the garage and to see them there is worth more than gold, because I see not just art forms, but memories, friendships, friends now passed, rallies, hill climbs, track days, and memories that money can't buy.
But my kids can't. My memories will die with me and so perhaps will my cars.
lowdrag said:
I have always used and driven my cars because I love the sensations, love the sounds of fury, the raw behaviour compared to our computer-controlled modern transports, but I have never thought of them as investments - ever. They are my hobby, my piece of the past, my youth, and my joy. I am getting older, and physically slowly failing, so I drive the cars less than I used to, but just the fact, on a cold but sunny morning like today, to open the garage and to see them there is worth more than gold, because I see not just art forms, but memories, friendships, friends now passed, rallies, hill climbs, track days, and memories that money can't buy.
But my kids can't. My memories will die with me and so perhaps will my cars.
That is exactly what cars are about to me! But my kids can't. My memories will die with me and so perhaps will my cars.
We have fantastic memories, that still get talked about when we meet with friends who were part of the journey.
I'm quite happy to be adopted, I can keep the memories going for another 20-30 years at a push
Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff