Wiring for 2x 3.6kw ovens, & “Currys Team (don’t) Know How”

[beedj]

Two new Neff 3.6kw ovens delivered to replace two old (3kw) ovens - both worked okay for 10+ years but doors failing and looking dated. Old ovens were hard wired to 2x 45A DP switches (in an adjacent cupboard), daisy chained, fed by one 6mm dedicated circuit from 32A MCB. Never had a problem electrics-wise

We decided to go for Currys 'Team know how' installation- I’m mega busy at work and c.£90 didn’t seem bad including disposing old ovens & rubbish etc

Anyway, Laurel & Hardy turned up with the ovens and immediately said they couldn’t fit them as there’s weren't any 3-pin sockets - despite the ovens specifying they must be hard-wired (instructions and Currys website) and not having plugs fitted. They also said they weren’t qualified to change the 45A switches to 3-pin sockets as they aren’t electricians (you don’t say). Unfortunately I wasn’t home but my wife just accepted what they said and off they went leaving the ovens still packaged.

Setting aside the (dangerous) incompetence which I’m picking up with Currys, can I just straight swap these ovens for the old ones? Each oven's instructions say 'install on a dedicated circuit protected by a 16a fuse' but I can’t run another circuit from the DB. Can I just hard wire into the two existing DP switches or, only alternative I can think of (in the absence of 2x 16A fused spurs which don’t seem to exist), is a garage board in adjacent cupboard with 2x16A MCBs, in place of the two 45A DP switches.

Thoughts? - am I over complicating this?!

Edited by beedj on Sunday 20th October 10:16

Edited by beedj on Sunday 20th October 10:16

[Initforthemoney]

beedj said:

Setting aside the (dangerous) incompetence which I’m picking up with Currys, can I just straight swap these ovens for the old ones? Each oven's instructions say 'install on a dedicated circuit protected by a 16a fuse' but I can’t run another circuit from the DB. Can I just hard wire into the two existing DP switches or, only alternative I can think of (in the absence of 2x 16A fused spurs which don’t seem to exist), is a garage board in adjacent cupboard with 2x16A MCBs, in place of the two 45A DP switches.

Thoughts? - am I over complicating this?!

And yet here you are, asking if you are doing it correctly.

[BaldOldMan]

Why is it dangerous incompetence ?

They recognised the limits of their competence & refused to go beyond that.

The 32A MCB is fine for the 6mm cable that it is protecting. However, it's not capable of protecting the cable from the 45A switch to the oven.

If you're correct that you need 2x16A protection where you are splitting from the 6mm cable.

[talksthetorque]

beedj said:

Two new Neff 3.6kw ovens delivered to replace two old (3kw) ovens - both worked okay for 10+ years but doors failing and looking dated. Old ovens were hard wired to 2x 45A DP switches (in an adjacent cupboard), daisy chained, fed by one 6mm dedicated circuit from 32A MCB. Never had a problem electrics-wise

We decided to go for Currys 'Team know how' installation- I’m mega busy at work and c.£90 didn’t seem bad including disposing old ovens & rubbish etc

Anyway, Laurel & Hardy turned up with the ovens and immediately said they couldn’t fit them as there’s weren't any 3-pin sockets - despite the ovens specifying they must be hard-wired (instructions and Currys website) and not having plugs fitted. They also said they weren’t qualified to change the 45A switches to 3-pin sockets as they aren’t electricians (you don’t say). Unfortunately I wasn’t home but my wife just accepted what they said and off they went leaving the ovens still packaged.

Setting aside the (dangerous) incompetence which I’m picking up with Currys, can I just straight swap these ovens for the old ones? Each oven's instructions say 'install on a dedicated circuit protected by a 16a fuse' but I can’t run another circuit from the DB. Can I just hard wire into the two existing DP switches or, only alternative I can think of (in the absence of 2x 16A fused spurs which don’t seem to exist), is a garage board in adjacent cupboard with 2x16A MCBs, in place of the two 45A DP switches.

Thoughts? - am I over complicating this?!

Edited by beedj on Sunday 20th October 10:16

Edited by beedj on Sunday 20th October 10:16

Yup Currys fault for not sending the right people out.
Not the guy's fault for not doing it.
They were probably van drivers, who got a day's training, issued with three screwdrivers and then got told they were now installation technicians.

If you're swapping out not like for like, you may need Part P certification, so it's now a case of finding a sparky willing to do a small job, or doing it yourself as suggested and getting someone to certify it.

[TheRainMaker]

The fact they think they were going to plug them into a 13amp socket is enough to tell you they had no idea what they were doing.

[Sheepshanks]

BaldOldMan said:

Why is it dangerous incompetence ?

They recognised the limits of their competence & refused to go beyond that.

The 32A MCB is fine for the 6mm cable that it is protecting. However, it's not capable of protecting the cable from the 45A switch to the oven.

If you're correct that you need 2x16A protection where you are splitting from the 6mm cable.

The cable to the oven could be changed. But then the appliance itself might not be capable of withstanding higher fault currents than 16A.

[BaldOldMan]

Sheepshanks said:

The cable to the oven could be changed. But then the appliance itself might not be capable of withstanding higher fault currents than 16A.

Yes - clearly it's not just the cables but the ovens themselves that need protecting.

TheRainMaker said:

The fact they think they were going to plug them into a 13amp socket is enough to tell you they had no idea what they were doing.

Why ?

Plugging them into 13A sockets is safe & would be permissible for them to do. It's not a bad compromise & would likely work most of the time and would at least mean you had a working oven until you could get the whole thing upgraded to 16A

[Sheepshanks]

BaldOldMan said:

Plugging them into 13A sockets is safe & would be permissible for them to do. It's not a bad compromise & would likely work most of the time and would at least mean you had a working oven until you could get the whole thing upgraded to 16A

I think the instructions for that power of oven will say it has to be hard wired to 16A.

[BaldOldMan]

Sheepshanks said:

I think the instructions for that power of oven will say it has to be hard wired to 16A.

I wasn't suggesting it as a permanent solution - but would temporarily mean you could safely use the ovens, just not on full power - and you'd likely blow the 13A fuse if you do.

[BaldOldMan]

It would appear to me that Curry's did what they say they'll do - however, OP falls down on step 3 -

https://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/cooker-install-426-c...

I wouldn't be holding my breath for them to do much..... it's not their fault the original ovens electrics are wrong.

[speedyman]

If I'm reading your installation right. You could install a two way distribution board on the end of the 6mm cable and then install two 16a circuit breakers in it feeding each cooker point that would be ok.

Edited by speedyman on Sunday 20th October 12:51

[BaldOldMan]

speedyman said:

If I'm reading your installation right. You could install a two way distribution board on the end of the 6mm cable and then install two 16a circuit breakers in it feeding each cooker point.

Correct - and what OP concludes in his last paragraph.

To do it properly, there should still be the double pole isolation switches - and you con't rely on the single pole MCB to isolate the oven - but I'm sure the electrician doing the work will point that out......

[Sheepshanks]

BaldOldMan said:

It would appear to me that Curry's did what they say they'll do - however, OP falls down on step 3 -

https://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/cooker-install-426-c...

I wouldn't be holding my breath for them to do much..... it's not their fault the original ovens electrics are wrong.

OP says the guys wanted to plug it in - no way is the right thing to do.


Appreciate what you're saying re plugging it in, but it's not considered good practice to use a plug and socket for ovens even within the rating.

On balance (to get it going) I think I'd rather just wire it in as is. The flex is probably only 1.5mm but even so in the event of a fault the 32A breaker should go first.

[beedj]

BaldOldMan said:

Why is it dangerous incompetence ?

They recognised the limits of their competence & refused to go beyond that.

.

...because if I’d had two spare regular 13a sockets they would have fitted plugs to the cables and plugged the ovens in, despite the instructions saying they must be hard wired. Debatable whether dangerous, but certainly incompetent?

[beedj]

BaldOldMan said:

Why ?

Plugging them into 13A sockets is safe & would be permissible for them to do. It's not a bad compromise & would likely work most of the time and would at least mean you had a working oven until you could get the whole thing upgraded to 16A

So ignore the installation instructions stressing hard wired, and almost certainly invalidate warranty?

[beedj]

BaldOldMan said:

It would appear to me that Curry's did what they say they'll do - however, OP falls down on step 3 -

https://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/cooker-install-426-c...

I wouldn't be holding my breath for them to do much..... it's not their fault the original ovens electrics are wrong.

Agreed, except they shouldn’t have sold me an installation service for a hard-wired oven when the service appears to be limited to plugging in to a socket (which is what the guys said)

[beedj]

ps. For avoidance of doubt I'm not doing this myself (admittedly not clear in initial post), I’m getting an electrician in to do the work. Reason for raising here is
1. Warning re scope of Currys service
2. Get an advance p-o-v on what my electrician is likely to suggest, extent of work etc

[Simpo Two]

beedj said:

Agreed, except they shouldn’t have sold me an installation service for a hard-wired oven when the service appears to be limited to plugging in to a socket (which is what the guys said)

You should certainly get some or all of the £90 back because you paid to have them installed and they weren't installed (unless there's some small print that covers this situation).

[Initforthemoney]

Sheepshanks said:

Appreciate what you're saying re plugging it in, but it's not considered good practice to use a plug and socket for ovens even within the rating.

Really?

[Sheepshanks]

Initforthemoney said:

Really?

A 13A plug and socket will get warm after a while at full load.

This stuff keeps changing, and I'm just an interested amatuer (with some electrical background from a long time ago) but, quick Google finds: https://the-regs.co.uk/blog/?p=255

I've seen some electricians argue this applies to all fixed appliance so you then get discussions about plugging in washing machines and tumble dryers, and whether they're fixed appliances.


I read somewhere that these 16A ovens stem from the fact that elsewhere in Europe they generally use 16A protected radial circuits as standard.