Morris Marina - was it really that bad?

[s m]

aeropilot said:

Touring442 said:

aeropilot said:

The Vauxhall board simply weren't interested in sporting cars (or motorsport) other than a token representation. They didn't even have a 'works' rally or motorsport division, DTV (and DOT in Germany) was as close as they got, which was as the name implies, money that came from Vauxhall (or Opel) dealers, rather than Vauxhall and Opel themselves.
GM had withdrawn from motorsport back in the early 60's and there was no sanctioned official support forthcoming from GM to Vauxhall and Opel for a Ford style works factory setup.

That was just crackers. Opel made quite a few nice sporting cars - Vauxhall had the Chevette which had superb handling out of the box (way better than a cooking Escort), a 2000 Cavalier engine and box, brakes etc and they could have knocked together a very good RS2000 rival for peanuts. I guess that's why GM got tired of them and got Opel to run the show in the 1980's.

Which is effectively just exactly what Opel did with the 'sister' Kadett when they created the Kadett GT/E.......

Would’ve like to have tried a Kadett GT/E
Did manage to get in an RS1800 though which were pretty rare looking back - compared to the Kadett in this test



I enjoyed the Opel I had immensely ....a GTE ....but the Manta ....replaced my last Escort RS

[2xChevrons]

I've often thought it was a shame we didn't get a Vauxhall version of the Kadett C Coupe here in the UK - it would look good with our Chevette's 'droop snoot' front end. Equally I think Opel missed a trick by restricting the fuel-injected engine to the Coupe in the GT/E, as the same thing but with the hatchback body would have been an interesting car in the early hot-hatch years; something in between the sedate ordinary models and the rather over-specialised and impractical Chevette HS.

I suppose the problem at Vauxhall's end was the lack of a suitable engine, as they used the old (and rather pathetic) Viva four-pot instead of the larger and slightly more modern-feeling Opel Cam-In-Head engine. So to do a warmed-over Chevette would have needed working out something with their own slant-four (probably the 1.75-litre from the Magnum), using the CIH unit from Germany or (in an ideal world) reaching out to Isuzu and using the twin-cam engine from the Gemini, which was the Japanese version of the T-car platform at the time.

[AW111]

While the Marina may have sold ok in the UK, anywhere in the Japanese export zone it was a bit of a joke.

The Corolla, 120y, etc., although basic, showed just how backwards-looking the Marina was.
I bought a 1967 Corolla rather than a 197? Marina: the Corolla had an alloy head, nice gearbox, brakes that worked and a radio.

[lowdrag]

AW111 said:

While the Marina may have sold ok in the UK, anywhere in the Japanese export zone it was a bit of a joke.

The Corolla, 120y, etc., although basic, showed just how backwards-looking the Marina was.
I bought a 1967 Corolla rather than a 197? Marina: the Corolla had an alloy head, nice gearbox, brakes that worked and a radio.

I totally agree, except you have missed out one thing. Around 1980 my neighbour and I were discussing new cars for her indoors. He bought a Civic, I bought a Golf. Lovely car the Civic, well equipped, lovely to drive and more comfortable than the Golf. Except it rusted, and rusted and rusted, whereas the Golf didn't - as much anyway. And that was the problem with all Japanese cars in the day.

[AW111]

lowdrag said:

I totally agree, except you have missed out one thing. Around 1980 my neighbour and I were discussing new cars for her indoors. He bought a Civic, I bought a Golf. Lovely car the Civic, well equipped, lovely to drive and more comfortable than the Golf. Except it rusted, and rusted and rusted, whereas the Golf didn't - as much anyway. And that was the problem with all Japanese cars in the day.

If you barbarians didn't salt the roads, your cars would treat you better

[coppice]

Droop Snoot - a friend had one from new. It looked fantastic and was sexy inside too . ZF box was great - rumbly and grumbly and with the same gate pattern as a 60s Ferrari or 911 . But ...it was nowhere near as quick as I expected- it ran out of serious puff in high 90s and gained speed disappointingly slowly after that

[aeropilot]

coppice said:

Droop Snoot - a friend had one from new. It looked fantastic and was sexy inside too . ZF box was great - rumbly and grumbly and with the same gate pattern as a 60s Ferrari or 911 . But ...it was nowhere near as quick as I expected- it ran out of serious puff in high 90s and gained speed disappointingly slowly after that

The Stromberg's were crap, which was the same issue with the HS Chevette as well.........again, Vauxhall penny pinching.

One of the guys in my local motor club when I first joined in 1980, had a 2300 Magnum 2-door that he used for road rallying, and that had a cam, flowed head, and a pair of 45DCOE (may have even been 48's?) and that was not slow!
Many Snoots got fitted with DCOE's in the 80's as did most HS Chevette's to make them the car that Vauxhall should have built. In fact many rally Chevette by the mid 80's were running 2600 single cam engines rather than the HS style DOHC unit.

[T-195]

AW111 said:

While the Marina may have sold ok in the UK, anywhere in the Japanese export zone it was a bit of a joke.

Not just outside the UK.

[LuS1fer]

lowdrag said:

I totally agree, except you have missed out one thing. Around 1980 my neighbour and I were discussing new cars for her indoors. He bought a Civic, I bought a Golf. Lovely car the Civic, well equipped, lovely to drive and more comfortable than the Golf. Except it rusted, and rusted and rusted, whereas the Golf didn't - as much anyway. And that was the problem with all Japanese cars in the day.

VW waited until the 90s. My Golf III was bad for rust.

[droopsnoot]

Dr Jekyll said:

I do have a vague memory of seeing a row of what I think were brand new droop snoot Firenzas in a compound somewhere near Tamworth. I had an idea it could actually have been the Reliant factory.

Anyone know what they might have been doing there?

I can't think of a reason for it. I have had people tell me before that the cars were finished off at Reliant in Tamworth, but they weren't - they were done at the sheds at the top end of Ellesmere Port works. The HSR Chevettes (or possibly the HS, my Chevette knowledge isn't up to scratch) were finished at Tamworth, though, could it be those instead?

aeropilot said:

The Stromberg's were crap, which was the same issue with the HS Chevette as well.........again, Vauxhall penny pinching.

Not just penny-pinching. We had a talk at the 40th anniversary "do" at the Heritage Centre by Roy Cooke, who was in charge of the HPF project, and he mentioned that the reason for not putting Dellortos on in the first place was that Vauxhall didn't deal with anyone who imported them. Even then it was way too complex to negotiate and sign a deal with a new supplier for a small-volume car - even if it had reached intended production levels that was only about a thousand a year. So they went with Strombergs because they could easily get them, and dealers would mention that Blydenstein did a handy kit to add about 40bhp, and the same for the HS. My Firenza had the 48s (and a Sportpart head) fitted six weeks after it was first registered.

finlo said:

We had one of those, only 197 made and all in that colour.

Have I asked you before if you remember the reg, or have any photos? Sorry if I have, I know someone sent me some recently. Always like to update the register.

coppice said:

Droop Snoot - a friend had one from new. It looked fantastic and was sexy inside too . ZF box was great - rumbly and grumbly and with the same gate pattern as a 60s Ferrari or 911 . But ...it was nowhere near as quick as I expected- it ran out of serious puff in high 90s and gained speed disappointingly slowly after that

Same question - do you happen to remember the registration?

I suspect the Dellortos would have helped the top end, and maybe that's why the first owner of mine had a different head fitted. Nigel White, are you out there?

One plan for the next generation was to go with the Getrag box that ended up in the HS and HSR Chevettes. Apparently it's a much nicer box to use than the ZF, though I have read that most of the shift problems with the ZF were down to the Vauxhall-specific gear lever (the Maserati Biturbo has the same box and a nicer shift, apparently), the noise was largely cured by using different gearbox oil (Barrie "Whizzo" Williams told me that, he worked at GN in Croydon when the cars were new) and the clutch noise was down to the springs in the friction plate, and could probably have been cured.

[aeropilot]

droopsnoot said:

The HSR Chevettes (or possibly the HS, my Chevette knowledge isn't up to scratch) were finished at Tamworth, though, could it be those instead?

Yes, I think that was the HSR's only.

droopsnoot said:

One plan for the next generation was to go with the Getrag box that ended up in the HS and HSR Chevettes. Apparently it's a much nicer box to use than the ZF, though I have read that most of the shift problems with the ZF were down to the Vauxhall-specific gear lever

The problem though with the Getrag box in the HS was that 5th wasn't an overdrive ratio like the ZF in the Snoot or in the Lotus-Sunbeam, it was a 1:1 direct top, which was always one of the HS's achillies heels, along with the pathetic 8 gal fuel tank, which meant HS's even in standard Stromberg trim, let alone thirstier Weber or Dellorto fit, had a ridiculously small range, 125 miles if you were lucky once 2x48's were fitted!!

The ZF gearlever in the Sunbeam-Lotus was a two-piece lever with an isolation joint to reduce the vibration and noise transmission from the lorry gearbox. I switched mine out for a 'works' one piece gearlever and the extra noise and vibration was horrific although it was a nicer shift.

Edited by aeropilot on Wednesday 20th November 11:31

[Dr Jekyll]

droopsnoot said:

Dr Jekyll said:

I do have a vague memory of seeing a row of what I think were brand new droop snoot Firenzas in a compound somewhere near Tamworth. I had an idea it could actually have been the Reliant factory.

Anyone know what they might have been doing there?

I can't think of a reason for it. I have had people tell me before that the cars were finished off at Reliant in Tamworth, but they weren't - they were done at the sheds at the top end of Ellesmere Port works. The HSR Chevettes (or possibly the HS, my Chevette knowledge isn't up to scratch) were finished at Tamworth, though, could it be those instead?

That would explain it, though it thought it was a few years earlier and the cars looked a bit more extreme than the HSR.

[2xChevrons]

lowdrag said:

AW111 said:

While the Marina may have sold ok in the UK, anywhere in the Japanese export zone it was a bit of a joke.

The Corolla, 120y, etc., although basic, showed just how backwards-looking the Marina was.
I bought a 1967 Corolla rather than a 197? Marina: the Corolla had an alloy head, nice gearbox, brakes that worked and a radio.

I totally agree, except you have missed out one thing. Around 1980 my neighbour and I were discussing new cars for her indoors. He bought a Civic, I bought a Golf. Lovely car the Civic, well equipped, lovely to drive and more comfortable than the Golf. Except it rusted, and rusted and rusted, whereas the Golf didn't - as much anyway. And that was the problem with all Japanese cars in the day.

It's very telling because the Japanese cars were not that technically advanced. They were just designed and built properly, which was a concept that most of the global motor industry (let alone the British one) hadn't grasped or mastered by 1970.

The 120Y especially was pretty much the Japanese equivalent of the Marina - a mid-sixed, conventional bread-and-butter RWD saloon that was purely a functional 'A-to-B' sort car. It still had a leaf-sprung live back end. It even had an engine that was a close cousin of the same BMC A-Series engine in the equivalent Marina.

But the difference in how they drive and feel is night and day. The Datsun is a fairly spongy, roly-poly, sedate thing but it has nicely geared, accurate and authoritative steering, a slick gearchange that never misses a shift, a ride that shows shows someone actually chose and tuned the springing at each end to complement the other (unlike the Marina, which appears to be a case of sticking 'some suspension' under the car and calling it a day), an interior that doesn't squeak or rattle and has a radio, two-speed wipers, a heated rear window, two wing mirrors and all that. And while that engine started life as a license-built A-Series it has an eight-port head, unified fixing sizes so you only need three spanners to do the common servicing jobs, it's actually built to the tolerances specified on its blueprints and it doesn't drip oil from its rear crank seal or its timing chain case.

Yes, the Datsun would start rusting before its first MoT is due but it would be mechanically fautless right up to (and beyond) the point you found yourself sweeping bits of your sills off the driveway. The Japanese got the fundamentals right and then worked hard on improving their weaknesses.

Same for the Mk1 Honda Civic. There's nothing conceptually in it that's dramatically different from a Mini or an Allegro, it's just designed and built to much higher standards and with greater attention to consistently good quality. Yes, it may have been the first car ever to be censured by the FTC for rampant and dangerous structural corrosion, but most people didn't care.

As for the VWs, the first-gen of FWD Volkswagens all rusted with the same alacrity that mass-production cars of the 1970s did. Early 'swallow-tail' Golfs were worse than the average. But like the Japanese VW worked hard on eliminating the corrosion issues on the Mk2 models, so the likes of the Mk2 Golf and Polo were famously rust-resistance. Then it all went downhill on the Mk3s when they cut costs in the design and began using poorer-quality steel from the former East Germany.

[Sheriff01]

My mum had a purple morris marina which I passed my test on which I did nt realise was so bad as it was all I knew until my dad bought me a an old GT6 as my first car! No one could afford the insurance now as a first car! However my dad still bought a second morris marina estate in the 70's with velour seats which thought very posh until our neighbours got a Granada with leather!

[Steve-san]

I took my Driving Test in a Pea Green Marina and passed 1st time.
It was always fun going round corners, the suspension (springs) instantly unleashed all their energy when you straightened up, causing smiles and fun as you endeavored to save your life and the passengers lives.
What fun we had. Maybe after Brexit they come back in fashion.

[fortfive]

Dreadful car. I had one as my first company steed. Noisy as hell, slow, no grip and the gear lever came off in my hand in Bentall's car park at 2800 miles. Changed it for a reliable 1.6 Cortina which cruised the M1 at 85 easily.

[coppice]

droopsnoot said:

Same question - do you happen to remember the registration?

It was silver , and P reg - PUM (?) 110 (??) P ? West Riding reg.

[Touring442]

aeropilot said:

The problem though with the Getrag box in the HS was that 5th wasn't an overdrive ratio like the ZF in the Snoot or in the Lotus-Sunbeam, it was a 1:1 direct top, which was always one of the HS's achillies heels, along with the pathetic 8 gal fuel tank, which meant HS's even in standard Stromberg trim, let alone thirstier Weber or Dellorto fit, had a ridiculously small range, 125 miles if you were lucky once 2x48's were fitted!!

The ZF gearlever in the Sunbeam-Lotus was a two-piece lever with an isolation joint to reduce the vibration and noise transmission from the lorry gearbox. I switched mine out for a 'works' one piece gearlever and the extra noise and vibration was horrific although it was a nicer shift.

Edited by aeropilot on Wednesday 20th November 11:31

Indeed. The HS used the Getrag 235 box that I believe was only available as a direct top unit. Had they used the slightly bigger 265, they would have had a choice of direct drive (dogleg) or H pattern overdrive. Did the later 5 speed VX cars (FE Victor) use a five speed Getrag/ZF as well?

[Saabfast]

Amazingly I did not think the Marina a bad car within its limits. Being quite young with a young family I was I offered a 4 year old 1973 BRG saloon at a very low price - a 1.3 Auto! I thought it would be pretty useless but it was surprisingly nippy when pushed. Handling was not up to my previous HB Viva's but they had rusted away and I needed a car. It did us well for about 3 years until it skidded into the back of a Peugeot 505 wagon in a summer storm. It was surprising how much rust was in the front chassis members, turned it into a crumple zone!

That was followed by a '76 1.8SDL Estate in a flaming orange/red colour. Again that did OK for about 4 years as a family car, quite pokey with the 1.8 engine. Only problem with the handling was a sudden change from understeer to oversteer if you tried a corner too fast. Sold that one on before getting a Mk5 Cortina 2.0 GL Estate.

There was no money for tuning in those days but they had very few problems apart the rust, but then most cars did in those days. They were cheap and cheap to run with bits available anywhere and pretty bulletproof engines even if not over powered.

(I may be a bit BL biased as these days amongst a few Saabs I have a TR7, still rusts just as well as ever!).

[Europa Jon]

If we're honest, there were loads of stey cars around in the 1970s. Just about every car of average price would rust visibly within a few years. My neighbour bought a succession of Marinas and later an Ital. He was a smart bloke with a good income, probably just not into cars but they couldn't have been so bad compared to the opposition.