Morris Marina - was it really that bad?

[coppice]

One of the few cars I drove in period which was nearly as ghastly as the Marina was a friend's Datsun 180B - awful ride , terrible steering and a thrashy engine . But unlike a Marina . it was faultless., and well equipped That was the real crime of BL - not just making outdated , undeveloped cars but quite shamelessly making them so badly . You can forgive a reliable car a lot .

[AC43]

coppice said:

One of the few cars I drove in period which was nearly as ghastly as the Marina was a friend's Datsun 180B - awful ride , terrible steering and a thrashy engine . But unlike a Marina . it was faultless., and well equipped That was the real crime of BL - not just making outdated , undeveloped cars but quite shamelessly making them so badly . You can forgive a reliable car a lot .

I clearly remember the rise of the Japanese at the time. For the average bloke in the street who didn't care about cars and just wanted something in the latest plate, they were very tempting. Same basic RWD layout and st dynamics but loads of toys and endless reliability (until they rotted of course). And ofter very questionable styling - the larger cars often looked shrunken Americana but the smaller ones looked like something from the ocean floor - original Datsun Cherry or Sunny anyone? But the average man on the street couldn't car less. He had a car on the drive on the latest plate and it had three speed wipers, a radio and a cigarette lighter as standard.

I had a kit car for a while and when I was looking for some generic electrical component at the scrappies (washer motor, fuel pump, horn assembly) I'd always take one off Japanese car. Because I just knew it would work.

[Flying Phil]

Re the gearbox issue - my 1.8TC Jubilee was bought cheaply SH as it "popped out of gear" (well second gear under load). I dropped the back end of the engine and removed the gearbox. Upon investigation I found the a circlip on the mainshaft had broken which allowed the second gear to move too much. I bought a new circlip for pence, reassembled the gearbox and put it all together....all good for another year then PX'd it for a new Chevette.

[2xChevrons]

AC43 said:

coppice said:

One of the few cars I drove in period which was nearly as ghastly as the Marina was a friend's Datsun 180B - awful ride , terrible steering and a thrashy engine . But unlike a Marina . it was faultless., and well equipped That was the real crime of BL - not just making outdated , undeveloped cars but quite shamelessly making them so badly . You can forgive a reliable car a lot .

I clearly remember the rise of the Japanese at the time. For the average bloke in the street who didn't care about cars and just wanted something in the latest plate, they were very tempting. Same basic RWD layout and st dynamics but loads of toys and endless reliability (until they rotted of course). And ofter very questionable styling - the larger cars often looked shrunken Americana but the smaller ones looked like something from the ocean floor - original Datsun Cherry or Sunny anyone? But the average man on the street couldn't car less. He had a car on the drive on the latest plate and it had three speed wipers, a radio and a cigarette lighter as standard.

I had a kit car for a while and when I was looking for some generic electrical component at the scrappies (washer motor, fuel pump, horn assembly) I'd always take one off Japanese car. Because I just knew it would work.

Agreed. There is no real magic to the success of Japanese cars - in the case of the Datsuns they were in no small part cribbed directly from the BMC products they would displace. The 120Y Sunny was not drastically different from the Marina in its basic engineering and certainly only marginally less soggy to drive but it was engineered well, built properly and well-equipped.

Flying Phil said:

Re the gearbox issue - my 1.8TC Jubilee was bought cheaply SH as it "popped out of gear" (well second gear under load). I dropped the back end of the engine and removed the gearbox. Upon investigation I found the a circlip on the mainshaft had broken which allowed the second gear to move too much. I bought a new circlip for pence, reassembled the gearbox and put it all together....all good for another year then PX'd it for a new Chevette.

This happened to the (very similar) gearbox on the my Midget 1500 as well. The circlip at the back of the mainshaft snapped and it wouldn't go into third gear and would often pop out of second.

Edited by 2xChevrons on Friday 5th February 18:41

[AC43]

2xChevrons said:

Agreed. There is no real magic to the success of Japanese cars - in the case of the Datsuns they were in no small part cribbed directly from the BMC products they would displace. The 120Y Sunny was not drastically different from the Marina in its basic engineering and certainly only marginally less soggy to drive but it was engineered well, built properly and well-equipped.

I remember a mate of mine briefly had a 100A Cherry. Ugly looking thing but with an indestructible, turbine-smooth engine. It's only redeeming feature.

Later, I read about the guy behind Janspeed first coming across the Japanese engines of the time and being amazed how well built they were - how fantastic the tolerances were, how strong they were, etc. Five main bearings not three etc etc etc

He spotted this and immediately started tuning, preparing and racing them. Having dumped BMC first. Smart move.

[LuS1fer]

I dismantled a 1986 Toyota Corolla which was very well built.
Where BL would drill a hole and use a self-tapper, Toyota had a bespoke square plastic insert into which the screw went so less chance of it rusting out.
Had a nice digital clock in the dash too and, though plastic, it was just well screwed together and nothing creaked.

Shame the cambelt snapped and lunched the engine (cambelt roulette was far less appreciated back then).

[Touring442]

AC43 said:

I remember a mate of mine briefly had a 100A Cherry. Ugly looking thing but with an indestructible, turbine-smooth engine. It's only redeeming feature.

Later, I read about the guy behind Janspeed first coming across the Japanese engines of the time and being amazed how well built they were - how fantastic the tolerances were, how strong they were, etc. Five main bearings not three etc etc etc

He spotted this and immediately started tuning, preparing and racing them. Having dumped BMC first. Smart move.

Jan Odor, a Hungarian refugee who worked for Downton Engineering.

The OHV Datsun engine was Nissan's development of the A Series that they were building under licence in the '60's. The 100A engine was transverse with the gearbox in the sump with an idler gear etc. Like a BMC unit but Nissan made it better. The 100A Cherry was a very good car, and quite easy on the eye for 1971.

Emotions aside, the Mini was rubbish by comparison.

[aeropilot]

Touring442 said:

AC43 said:

I remember a mate of mine briefly had a 100A Cherry. Ugly looking thing but with an indestructible, turbine-smooth engine. It's only redeeming feature.

Later, I read about the guy behind Janspeed first coming across the Japanese engines of the time and being amazed how well built they were - how fantastic the tolerances were, how strong they were, etc. Five main bearings not three etc etc etc

He spotted this and immediately started tuning, preparing and racing them. Having dumped BMC first. Smart move.

Jan Odor, a Hungarian refugee who worked for Downton Engineering.

And Jason Plato's uncle.

[AC43]

Touring442 said:

AC43 said:

I remember a mate of mine briefly had a 100A Cherry. Ugly looking thing but with an indestructible, turbine-smooth engine. It's only redeeming feature.

Later, I read about the guy behind Janspeed first coming across the Japanese engines of the time and being amazed how well built they were - how fantastic the tolerances were, how strong they were, etc. Five main bearings not three etc etc etc

He spotted this and immediately started tuning, preparing and racing them. Having dumped BMC first. Smart move.

Jan Odor, a Hungarian refugee who worked for Downton Engineering.

The OHV Datsun engine was Nissan's development of the A Series that they were building under licence in the '60's. The 100A engine was transverse with the gearbox in the sump with an idler gear etc. Like a BMC unit but Nissan made it better. The 100A Cherry was a very good car, and quite easy on the eye for 1971.

Emotions aside, the Mini was rubbish by comparison.

That's the exact car my mate had. Except his was red. The engine made the A Series look like something from the Victorian era.

[AC43]

aeropilot said:

Touring442 said:

AC43 said:

I remember a mate of mine briefly had a 100A Cherry. Ugly looking thing but with an indestructible, turbine-smooth engine. It's only redeeming feature.

Later, I read about the guy behind Janspeed first coming across the Japanese engines of the time and being amazed how well built they were - how fantastic the tolerances were, how strong they were, etc. Five main bearings not three etc etc etc

He spotted this and immediately started tuning, preparing and racing them. Having dumped BMC first. Smart move.

Jan Odor, a Hungarian refugee who worked for Downton Engineering.

And Jason Plato's uncle.

What a brilliant piece of trivia.

[Touring442]

aeropilot said:

And Jason Plato's uncle.

Blimey!

[LuS1fer]

Touring442 said:

The OHV Datsun engine was Nissan's development of the A Series that they were building under licence in the '60's. The 100A engine was transverse with the gearbox in the sump with an idler gear etc. Like a BMC unit but Nissan made it better. The 100A Cherry was a very good car, and quite easy on the eye for 1971.

Emotions aside, the Mini was rubbish by comparison.

Sure but you're not comparing like with like.
The Mini was a 1959 icon, a fashion accessory that originally was an answer to crappy little microcars and just kept going whereas the Fiat 500 evolved into the 126.

The Cherry's natural adversary was the best-selling Austin 1100/1300, not the Mini.

A Mini 1000 cost £836 in 1973 (about £1370 less now but these were far less affluent times).

The 988cc Cherry 100A 2 door cost £939 compared to an Austin 1100 2 door at £892 or a 1300 at £966. The new Allegro 1100 was £999.

Toyota Corolla cost a lot more.
Honda Civic 1200 came in at £999
Foreigners at that price level were the 903cc Fiat 127 and 845cc Renault 5
Beetle 1200 was £938
Escort 1100 at £958.

The Datsun 100A did 85mph and 0-60 in 16.6
Surprisingly the Austin 1300 was a lot slower, Allegro slower still, the Fiat 127 quicker and the Honda quicker than both at 14.1 (nearly on par with a Mini 1275GT).
For comparison, few cars under 2 litres would pass the magic 100mph.

The Cherry had a good front but a bit of a baboon's bum
http://p7.storage.canalblog.com/78/86/570736/99838...

[coppice]

On my very first trip to my beloved Cadwell Park , in April 1975 , the very first car I saw was a very quick and raucous Datsun Cherry . Driven , if memory serves , by somebody from the local dealer.


I do remember a drive in a 120Y , a car which the then very chauvinist press had sneered at. It was a revelation - integrated radio , heated rear screen , lots of kit , started first time , every time , revved smoothly and had a feather light gearchange and clutch . It was no Lotus , it obviously wasn't quick, and it didn't generate much sideways g . BUT ...it just worked . And given the shoddy rubbish which Leyland had been doling out to their loyal customers I realised , even at 22 ,that change was a-coming . It sure was too..

[LuS1fer]

Just looking at Motor's 1973 Running Report on a Marina 1.8TC.Ah, who would ever miss the 70s for reliability...


For parity, other cars had various faults we wouldn't tolerate these days (Saab 99, Chrysler 180, Viva 2300, Dolomite, 127) but here were the Marina's

0-6000: faulty fuel/water gauges; jammed starter, faulty cigar lighter, indicators, reversing lights; new clutch bearings
6000-12000: Exhaust blew. Uprated suspension issues with grounding.
12000-18000: Worn track rod ends, cracked bellhousing from grounding, front pads replaced; water pump shaft broke; suspension knocking
18000-24000: Throttle cable broke, windcsreen broke twice, new disc pads again; knocking gearbox mount; electrical issues
24000-30000: Gearbox mainshaft bearing failure, centre main bearing failed - new crank and rod; offside rear spring broke; earth strap broke; clutch spring ceased to work, new pads and drum linings.
30000+: Nearside rear spring broke; Tail pipe and silencer corroded and fell off.

[Sticks.]

You might just as easily have written that about my 73 Viva, and see my earlier post about a 6 year old Chrysler with zero trade in value.

And don't mention broken springs in front of a Z4 owner

From memory, didn't early Datsuns have a bad reputation for rust?

[aeropilot]

LuS1fer said:

Just looking at Motor's 1973 Running Report on a Marina 1.8TC.Ah, who would ever miss the 70s for reliability...


For parity, other cars had various faults we wouldn't tolerate these days (Saab 99, Chrysler 180, Viva 2300, Dolomite, 127) but here were the Marina's

0-6000: faulty fuel/water gauges; jammed starter, faulty cigar lighter, indicators, reversing lights; new clutch bearings
6000-12000: Exhaust blew. Uprated suspension issues with grounding.
12000-18000: Worn track rod ends, cracked bellhousing from grounding, front pads replaced; water pump shaft broke; suspension knocking
18000-24000: Throttle cable broke, windcsreen broke twice, new disc pads again; knocking gearbox mount; electrical issues
24000-30000: Gearbox mainshaft bearing failure, centre main bearing failed - new crank and rod; offside rear spring broke; earth strap broke; clutch spring ceased to work, new pads and drum linings.
30000+: Nearside rear spring broke; Tail pipe and silencer corroded and fell off.

And that was probably a good one

[CDP]

Sticks. said:

From memory, didn't early Datsuns have a bad reputation for rust?

Extremely. Many Japanese cars did. My father told me about one of his colleagues who bought a new Corona and it seemed amazing. A year later it was rotting quite badly. Then again another colleague had a new Marina where the door handles kept breaking off.

Dad had VWs and they weren't immune to rust either but early Jap stuff was special. They got better later on.

[2xChevrons]

CDP said:

Sticks. said:

From memory, didn't early Datsuns have a bad reputation for rust?

Extremely. Many Japanese cars did. My father told me about one of his colleagues who bought a new Corona and it seemed amazing. A year later it was rotting quite badly. Then again another colleague had a new Marina where the door handles kept breaking off.

Dad had VWs and they weren't immune to rust either but early Jap stuff was special. They got better later on.

All Japanese cars prior to approx. the mid-80s were champions in the rusting stakes. Datsuns frequently rusted out before their first MoT and the original Honda Civic was the first car to be recalled for rust problems by the US DoT. Even by the low standards of the time they were appalling.

Partly it was because Japan doesn't (and still doesn't) use salt or other anti/de-icing agents on its roads, which are what really gets the rust setting in on cars where that is the case. So when they designed their cars primarily for their home market they didn't pay much attention to rust-resistance.

Materials were and are relatively expensive in Japan since either the finished product or the raw ingredients (and the energy to produce them) has to nearly all be imported. The Japanese car tax system charges in accordance with vehicle weight. Both encourage using the minimal amount of metal possible in a car, leading to thin body panels without liners or second skins. The cost of materials also means that the quality of the metal was often lower than would be expected on a European or American car, so corrosion quickly set in once the paint was chipped or moisture got into the structure.

In dry places Japanese cars basically last forever, but it's in parts of the world which use salt (like the UK, the US Mid-West) that they rotted rapidly.

[Boringvolvodriver]

Had a Morris Marina 1.3 for 2 1/2 years back in 1980- bought at 3 years old as an ex company car with 47k miles to replace a 12 year old Viva.

The price was right and I thought I was going up in the world with such luxury as an electric screen wash, door mirror and a working heater! Even boasted “low profile” tyres - 175/60/13 if I recall

Handling was interesting shall we say, and at 3 years old started showing bits of rust.

At some point the gear selector went which reversed the gear position so that where 3 and 4 should have been, it was 1 and 2 - now that was fun!

plenty of room in the back for youthful fun!

Sold it and got an almost new mini - didn’t have to slow down for the twistys on my drive to and from work!

Morris Marina Probably the worst car I have ever had the pleasure of owning

[AW111]

2xChevrons said:

All Japanese cars prior to approx. the mid-80s were champions in the rusting stakes. Datsuns frequently rusted out before their first MoT and the original Honda Civic was the first car to be recalled for rust problems by the US DoT. Even by the low standards of the time they were appalling.

Partly it was because Japan doesn't (and still doesn't) use salt or other anti/de-icing agents on its roads, which are what really gets the rust setting in on cars where that is the case. So when they designed their cars primarily for their home market they didn't pay much attention to rust-resistance.

Materials were and are relatively expensive in Japan since either the finished product or the raw ingredients (and the energy to produce them) has to nearly all be imported. The Japanese car tax system charges in accordance with vehicle weight. Both encourage using the minimal amount of metal possible in a car, leading to thin body panels without liners or second skins. The cost of materials also means that the quality of the metal was often lower than would be expected on a European or American car, so corrosion quickly set in once the paint was chipped or moisture got into the structure.

In dry places Japanese cars basically last forever, but it's in parts of the world which use salt (like the UK, the US Mid-West) that they rotted rapidly.

+1
There are still quite a lot of 70's Japanese cars kicking around in Aus.

My first car was a 2nd hand 1967 Corolla. A Marina was on the shortlist, but it was woeful compared to the Japanese alternatives.