Morris Marina - was it really that bad?
Discussion
Tacking away from stormy waters , if I may , can I confess to a secret liking for the Ford Corsair 2000E ? Baby Thunderbird looks, classy cabin with lots of dials and cut quite dash in metallic pale blue I thought . V4 engine was a tad thrummy, and maybe best in a Transit , but , just like the 1600E a car which transcended its class . Wonder what the Crayford V6 was like - somewhere in my piles of old CAR magazines there's a test.
Shezbo said:
LuS1fer said:
Extremely sadistic. They saw POWs as weak, given their kamikazi mentality and death before surrender. Inhuman conditions and forced labour saw thousands die of exhaustion or dysentry.
They used torture. One of our teachers, in school, spoke with a pronounced whistle, apparently because the Japanese stuck a red hot poker in the roof of his mouth.
I don't think we need any needless 'comments' from the past - on a car forum?They used torture. One of our teachers, in school, spoke with a pronounced whistle, apparently because the Japanese stuck a red hot poker in the roof of his mouth.
It's a completely different country now.
coppice said:
Tacking away from stormy waters , if I may , can I confess to a secret liking for the Ford Corsair 2000E ? Baby Thunderbird looks, classy cabin with lots of dials and cut quite dash in metallic pale blue I thought . V4 engine was a tad thrummy, and maybe best in a Transit , but , just like the 1600E a car which transcended its class . Wonder what the Crayford V6 was like - somewhere in my piles of old CAR magazines there's a test.
No need to be secret, they're a cool car. I remember asking my dad if we could have one. No idea what they were like to drive. Fords were more stylish than Austin Morris, appealing to a younger buyer, including sales reps. Ford has always been good at making appealing cars, even when they're not very good. Wasn't the Chevette a rebodied Viva, with no really difference underneath? I remember a friend had a leggy 3 year old Mk1 Cavalier. I thought it was good (based on one ride) apart from being orange.
Sticks. said:
No need to be secret, they're a cool car. I remember asking my dad if we could have one. No idea what they were like to drive. Fords were more stylish than Austin Morris, appealing to a younger buyer, including sales reps. Ford has always been good at making appealing cars, even when they're not very good.
Wasn't the Chevette a rebodied Viva, with no really difference underneath? I remember a friend had a leggy 3 year old Mk1 Cavalier. I thought it was good (based on one ride) apart from being orange.
Ford used American style to their advantage and so did the Japanese - shrunken American detail.Wasn't the Chevette a rebodied Viva, with no really difference underneath? I remember a friend had a leggy 3 year old Mk1 Cavalier. I thought it was good (based on one ride) apart from being orange.
The Chevette was a revised Opel Kadett and was a better car for it.
God , this thread just keeps triggering memories. I drove a few HA and HB Vivas and , without exception, they were ghastly and their only saving grace was the funky little gear lever . But I liked the Chevette, apart from its absurd name - we didn't have Chevrolets in the UK so why a miniature one ? Like the Kadett , it was a funky little car , very comfy, nice dash and a solid , capable feel. I only drove the cooking 1256cc job but oohed and aahed at many an HS on forest stages .
Back then , my first daily driver was a Riley1300- which sort of epitomised the Hyacinth Bucket mindset of BL planners . It was an Austin 1300 at heart , but with an upwardly mobile grille, a Tudorbethan dash and a detuned Cooper S engine. So many mixed messages - a whole thesis worth.
Back then , my first daily driver was a Riley1300- which sort of epitomised the Hyacinth Bucket mindset of BL planners . It was an Austin 1300 at heart , but with an upwardly mobile grille, a Tudorbethan dash and a detuned Cooper S engine. So many mixed messages - a whole thesis worth.
coppice said:
Back then , my first daily driver was a Riley1300- which sort of epitomised the Hyacinth Bucket mindset of BL planners . It was an Austin 1300 at heart , but with an upwardly mobile grille, a Tudorbethan dash and a detuned Cooper S engine. So many mixed messages - a whole thesis worth.
My Aunt had a VDP one, so lovely fold down tables in the back to eat your dinner from.a8hex said:
coppice said:
Back then , my first daily driver was a Riley1300- which sort of epitomised the Hyacinth Bucket mindset of BL planners . It was an Austin 1300 at heart , but with an upwardly mobile grille, a Tudorbethan dash and a detuned Cooper S engine. So many mixed messages - a whole thesis worth.
My Aunt had a VDP one, so lovely fold down tables in the back to eat your dinner from.AC43 said:
So much badge engineering - at various times you could buy one badged as an Austin, an MG, a VDP, a Riley and, IIRC, a Wolesley.
And Morris. There was a 1300GT iirc too. A popular car, I once read that in its last year of production than the Allegro did in total. Along with the Maxi, an example of good interior space relative to its size. You'd think a hatch would have been ideal, but no, a door estate. AC43 said:
So much badge engineering - at various times you could buy one badged as an Austin, an MG, a VDP, a Riley and, IIRC, a Wolesley.
True but, in reality, they were just the BMC equivalent of Ford's Deluxe, L, XL, GT, GXL, Sport.I always thought Vauxhall missed a trick with their deluxe, SL and GT (later Sport SL). No imagination.
Sticks. said:
AC43 said:
So much badge engineering - at various times you could buy one badged as an Austin, an MG, a VDP, a Riley and, IIRC, a Wolesley.
And Morris. There was a 1300GT iirc too. A popular car, I once read that in its last year of production than the Allegro did in total. Along with the Maxi, an example of good interior space relative to its size. You'd think a hatch would have been ideal, but no, a door estate. https://www.aronline.co.uk/cars/morris/nomad/
Yes, BL had a small hatchback they could have sold. Then again in the 70's they also had the Innocenti and didn't bother selling it over here.
https://www.aronline.co.uk/cars/innocenti/mini-90-...
When lockdown is over I'd suggest going for a nose around the British Motor Museum for a weep on how much good stuff they just didn't sell. It makes JDM look tame.
https://www.britishmotormuseum.co.uk/
Edited by CDP on Monday 8th February 10:49
CDP said:
Like the Morris Nomad?
Yes, BL had a small hatchback they could have sold. Then again in the 70's they also had the Innocenti and didn't bother selling it over here.
When lockdown is over I'd suggest going for a nose around the British Motor Museum for a weep on how much good stuff they just didn't sell. It makes JDM look tame.
I think this paints BL in an unfair light. Yes, BL had a small hatchback they could have sold. Then again in the 70's they also had the Innocenti and didn't bother selling it over here.
When lockdown is over I'd suggest going for a nose around the British Motor Museum for a weep on how much good stuff they just didn't sell. It makes JDM look tame.
The Nomad existed because BL Australia didn't get the Maxi, which was also a five-door car with the 1.5-litre E-Series engine. Australia also had the Morris 1500, which was a standard ADO16 with the E-Series drivetrain. The car and the engine was already locally-built, and there was no point in either setting up Maxi production in Australia or shipping Maxis halfway round the world.
The 1500/Nomad existed due to the specific requirements of the Australian market, where cars generally had bigger engines for their size in Europe - hence why Australia had the Morris Major/Austin Lancer (a restyled Minor with a B-Series engine), the Austin Freeway (a Farina-B with a unique 2.4-litre six-cylinder B-Series). the local version of the Marina with the 2.6-litre E-Series and the P76 with the bespoke 4.4-litre Rover V8. A car the size of the ADO16 needed an engine larger than the 1275cc A-Series, hence the E-Series was crammed into the front. By the same token, the Maxi with the 1.5 engine would have been under-engined for a car of its size in Australia, hence the Nomad.
The Innocenti may have looked more modern than the Mini but it was, in many ways, a step backwards. It had less interior space than the Mini and was, at best, a 2+2 rather than the Mini's party piece of being a full four-seater in a 10-foot long car. Being based on the Mini floorpan, subframes and drivetrains it was - with the exception of a front-mounted electric radiator fan - no technical improvement on the Mini in terms of performance, comfort, refinement or handling. At the time the Innocenti was being designed BL were already well into a number of its own Mini-replacement projects which would be entirely new products, not a reskin of the original. And the Mk3 Mini was selling very well (peak production in 1971) and - for the first time in the model's life - making a profit. They had no need for a stopgap replacement that was more expensive to build and sell, offered little over the original and had quite a few disadvantages. Then, of course, BLMC collapsed, the government came to the rescue and put a freeze on all existing development projects. It also led to the 'fire sale' of assets, including most of BL's overseas operations which included Innocenti. When the Mini-replacement project was restarted, it lasted until 1977 until it started virtually from scratch with different parameters and resulted in the Metro. Had BL known in 1973 that the 'new Mini' wouldn't hit production for another seven years and the old Mini's sales would dip below the 200k mark for the first time in 1962, maybe they would have looked at the Innocenti more closely. But at the time it would have been a pointlessly expensive re-bodying of a car that had its own in-house all-new replacement waiting in the wings.
LuS1fer said:
AC43 said:
So much badge engineering - at various times you could buy one badged as an Austin, an MG, a VDP, a Riley and, IIRC, a Wolesley.
True but, in reality, they were just the BMC equivalent of Ford's Deluxe, L, XL, GT, GXL, Sport.I always thought Vauxhall missed a trick with their deluxe, SL and GT (later Sport SL). No imagination.
Of course, then someone had the genius realisation that instead of selling the Ghia to a small number of people, you could sell just the bits which make the car look like a Ghia to a much larger number of people, even though what lurks beneath is a humble L. I'm not sure which was the first, the earliest I can think of is the 1980s Golf Driver - GTi on the outside, base model with a wheezing carb on the inside. Although I've noted in the BMW world at least we've gone back the the kind of GXL-spotting behaviour of anoraks past, where since everything is an M-Sport you start checking for twin tailpipes, NBT navigation units and sizing up brake calipers as the modern equivalent of peering through the window to see if it's got a four-hole dash.
LuS1fer said:
AC43 said:
So much badge engineering - at various times you could buy one badged as an Austin, an MG, a VDP, a Riley and, IIRC, a Wolesley.
True but, in reality, they were just the BMC equivalent of Ford's Deluxe, L, XL, GT, GXL, Sport.I always thought Vauxhall missed a trick with their deluxe, SL and GT (later Sport SL). No imagination.
Timberwolf said:
LuS1fer said:
AC43 said:
So much badge engineering - at various times you could buy one badged as an Austin, an MG, a VDP, a Riley and, IIRC, a Wolesley.
True but, in reality, they were just the BMC equivalent of Ford's Deluxe, L, XL, GT, GXL, Sport.I always thought Vauxhall missed a trick with their deluxe, SL and GT (later Sport SL). No imagination.
Dr Jekyll said:
LuS1fer said:
AC43 said:
So much badge engineering - at various times you could buy one badged as an Austin, an MG, a VDP, a Riley and, IIRC, a Wolesley.
True but, in reality, they were just the BMC equivalent of Ford's Deluxe, L, XL, GT, GXL, Sport.I always thought Vauxhall missed a trick with their deluxe, SL and GT (later Sport SL). No imagination.
P5BNij said:
Did the BMC VDPs receive the same treatment as the Jag XJ / Daimler VDPs, ie: were they sent off to VDP in London for extra coats of paint and fitment of the posh bits, or did it all happen inhouse at Longbridge?
They were 'proper' VdP products - the bodyshell and the built-up subframes were shipped from Longbridge to VdP at Kingsbury, the body was put on the line and it was painted, trimmed and finished before the subframes were installed and the final mechanical bits hooked up. The paint was applied by hand, the coach lines were put on by hand, the pompous front grille was assembled and polished by hand, the Connolly leather seats were upholstered by hand, the wood-veneer dashboard was built and fitted by hand, as were the picnic tables and door cappings. The BMC VdPs were, in bodywork terms, something rather special and certainly a long way from the Ghia-badged Fords which were just the name of a coachbuilder on a Dagenham-built car that was just the poshest trim level. Which is what VdP became for Austin-Rover after Kingsbury was shut in 1979, when the Metro/Maestro/Montego VdPs were just built on the line at Longbridge. As were the VdP Rover SD1s.
The Allegro-based VdP 1.5 and 1.7 were built slightly differently - they were assembled at Longbridge as driveable but 'naked' bare shells painted in black undercoat and with the fascia and major controls already fitted (I belive the fascia was crafted at Kingsbury and sent up to Longbridge for fitting), then driven to Kingsbury where they were painted, trimmed and finished. This was the same for the Jaguar/Daimler models - the way to spot a genuine XJ12/Daimler Double Six VdP is that it has black inner wings in the boot and engine bay.
LuS1fer said:
True but, in reality, they were just the BMC equivalent of Ford's Deluxe, L, XL, GT, GXL, Sport.
I always thought Vauxhall missed a trick with their deluxe, SL and GT (later Sport SL). No imagination.
Au contraire , I suggest that something much more nuanced was at work . An Escort GT was a sporty version of the near identical , but slightly slower 1300XL and a less sybaritically appointed GXL - but it was still a Ford Escort. There was a hierarchy of Escorts but something rather weirder at BL , which flogged near identical cars aimed at entirely different markets , sometimes via different dealers . I always thought Vauxhall missed a trick with their deluxe, SL and GT (later Sport SL). No imagination.
So , a Riley 1300 - a sporty, well appointed car for the middle class gent who remembered when Rileys were something , if a something his budget wouldn't run to. Damned inflation - my war bonds don't keep up. . But I got the grille which makes my car look completely different from a mere, sniff, Morris.
MG 1300 - check out the stripes , the bright yellow and orange paint options, the racy steering wheel and - sigh - that gurning great MG front end . It's practically a racing car, and I can wave at owners of MG TCs , while listening to Radio 1. I might even subscribe to Safety Fast.
Wolseley 1300 - the epitome of understated luxury , with none of that sporty nonsense . A car for the man who stood ramrod straight for the National Anthem and whose car showed its owner's status and breeding by - gosh !- displaying a little light in the radiator.
Van den Plas 1300 - hard to pigeonhole the ownership demographic other than its monumental levels of self delusion .
Morris/Austin 1300 - to quote the Ronnie Barker /John Cleese sketch - 'I know my place '..
Dr Jekyll said:
LuS1fer said:
AC43 said:
So much badge engineering - at various times you could buy one badged as an Austin, an MG, a VDP, a Riley and, IIRC, a Wolesley.
True but, in reality, they were just the BMC equivalent of Ford's Deluxe, L, XL, GT, GXL, Sport.I always thought Vauxhall missed a trick with their deluxe, SL and GT (later Sport SL). No imagination.
Wood = posh.
Rev counter and vinyl rook , now that was sporty...
I think they were simply trying their level best to maintain a customer base for far too many old brands so buyers remained faithful rather than defecting to Ford or other brands.
What was odd was the way they used brands abroad so the Marina was the Austin Marina in some countries as they weren't familiar with Morris. I suppose the equivalent in the UK was dumping Datsun in favour of Nissan, a brave move given it was synonymous with the wartime semi-circular corrugated iron Nissen huts.
2xChevrons said:
I think this paints BL in an unfair light.
The Nomad existed because BL Australia didn't get the Maxi, which was also a five-door car with the 1.5-litre E-Series engine. Australia also had the Morris 1500, which was a standard ADO16 with the E-Series drivetrain. The car and the engine was already locally-built, and there was no point in either setting up Maxi production in Australia or shipping Maxis halfway round the world.
The 1500/Nomad existed due to the specific requirements of the Australian market, where cars generally had bigger engines for their size in Europe - hence why Australia had the Morris Major/Austin Lancer (a restyled Minor with a B-Series engine), the Austin Freeway (a Farina-B with a unique 2.4-litre six-cylinder B-Series). the local version of the Marina with the 2.6-litre E-Series and the P76 with the bespoke 4.4-litre Rover V8. A car the size of the ADO16 needed an engine larger than the 1275cc A-Series, hence the E-Series was crammed into the front. By the same token, the Maxi with the 1.5 engine would have been under-engined for a car of its size in Australia, hence the Nomad.
The Innocenti may have looked more modern than the Mini but it was, in many ways, a step backwards. It had less interior space than the Mini and was, at best, a 2+2 rather than the Mini's party piece of being a full four-seater in a 10-foot long car. Being based on the Mini floorpan, subframes and drivetrains it was - with the exception of a front-mounted electric radiator fan - no technical improvement on the Mini in terms of performance, comfort, refinement or handling. At the time the Innocenti was being designed BL were already well into a number of its own Mini-replacement projects which would be entirely new products, not a reskin of the original. And the Mk3 Mini was selling very well (peak production in 1971) and - for the first time in the model's life - making a profit. They had no need for a stopgap replacement that was more expensive to build and sell, offered little over the original and had quite a few disadvantages. Then, of course, BLMC collapsed, the government came to the rescue and put a freeze on all existing development projects. It also led to the 'fire sale' of assets, including most of BL's overseas operations which included Innocenti. When the Mini-replacement project was restarted, it lasted until 1977 until it started virtually from scratch with different parameters and resulted in the Metro. Had BL known in 1973 that the 'new Mini' wouldn't hit production for another seven years and the old Mini's sales would dip below the 200k mark for the first time in 1962, maybe they would have looked at the Innocenti more closely. But at the time it would have been a pointlessly expensive re-bodying of a car that had its own in-house all-new replacement waiting in the wings.
They could have built RHD Innocentis in Italy and shipped them here or even just the bodyshell parts needed. A lot of the European cars were pretty rubbish for interior space too.The Nomad existed because BL Australia didn't get the Maxi, which was also a five-door car with the 1.5-litre E-Series engine. Australia also had the Morris 1500, which was a standard ADO16 with the E-Series drivetrain. The car and the engine was already locally-built, and there was no point in either setting up Maxi production in Australia or shipping Maxis halfway round the world.
The 1500/Nomad existed due to the specific requirements of the Australian market, where cars generally had bigger engines for their size in Europe - hence why Australia had the Morris Major/Austin Lancer (a restyled Minor with a B-Series engine), the Austin Freeway (a Farina-B with a unique 2.4-litre six-cylinder B-Series). the local version of the Marina with the 2.6-litre E-Series and the P76 with the bespoke 4.4-litre Rover V8. A car the size of the ADO16 needed an engine larger than the 1275cc A-Series, hence the E-Series was crammed into the front. By the same token, the Maxi with the 1.5 engine would have been under-engined for a car of its size in Australia, hence the Nomad.
The Innocenti may have looked more modern than the Mini but it was, in many ways, a step backwards. It had less interior space than the Mini and was, at best, a 2+2 rather than the Mini's party piece of being a full four-seater in a 10-foot long car. Being based on the Mini floorpan, subframes and drivetrains it was - with the exception of a front-mounted electric radiator fan - no technical improvement on the Mini in terms of performance, comfort, refinement or handling. At the time the Innocenti was being designed BL were already well into a number of its own Mini-replacement projects which would be entirely new products, not a reskin of the original. And the Mk3 Mini was selling very well (peak production in 1971) and - for the first time in the model's life - making a profit. They had no need for a stopgap replacement that was more expensive to build and sell, offered little over the original and had quite a few disadvantages. Then, of course, BLMC collapsed, the government came to the rescue and put a freeze on all existing development projects. It also led to the 'fire sale' of assets, including most of BL's overseas operations which included Innocenti. When the Mini-replacement project was restarted, it lasted until 1977 until it started virtually from scratch with different parameters and resulted in the Metro. Had BL known in 1973 that the 'new Mini' wouldn't hit production for another seven years and the old Mini's sales would dip below the 200k mark for the first time in 1962, maybe they would have looked at the Innocenti more closely. But at the time it would have been a pointlessly expensive re-bodying of a car that had its own in-house all-new replacement waiting in the wings.
British Leyland was to car manufacturing what British Rail was to railways, despite many talented people within. A tombstone.
It might have kept customers off the foreign competition.
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