Unknown car

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Discussion

Swampy1982

3,305 posts

110 months

Monday 6th July 2020
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garryb said:

Saw this on FB , anyone have any idea
Hedgehopper said:


How about a Super Cheetah 4.7 prototype? Side windows have the same style I think.



Edited by Hedgehopper on Monday 6th July 10:57
Just quoting the two together for selfish reasons so I can see them together as I lost the original image with the new page
and upon seeing yours I thought it was bleeding close...


eldar

21,614 posts

195 months

Monday 6th July 2020
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Swampy1982 said:
Just quoting the two together for selfish reasons so I can see them together as I lost the original image with the new page
and upon seeing yours I thought it was bleeding close...
Certainly looks to be a lot of shared DNA there.

Turbobanana

6,160 posts

200 months

Monday 6th July 2020
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Swampy1982 said:
Just quoting the two together for selfish reasons so I can see them together as I lost the original image with the new page
and upon seeing yours I thought it was bleeding close...
If you rotate the original to align more closely to the newer pic, they don't look all that similar:



borrani72

275 posts

61 months

Tuesday 7th July 2020
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TVR used inboard brakes on some of their early models, like this Grantura.


They had similar wheels/tyres, but were very short, with a rather too upright driving position.





The Lotus Elite Type 14 (1957–1963) wouldn't work as it had a GRP monocoque. You couldn't cut-it about or re-body it






However, the Lotus Eleven Le Mans had a tubular chassis, DeDeon rear axle/inboard brakes.



The standard wheels were taller/thinner than the mystery car, but that would be an easy-enough swap.

It was low-built, and suitable for a more conventional body, like this Ghia Aigle built one-off, which also features chunkier wheels and tyres than the original Lotus spec.


If 'KUR 3C' is an indication of a 1965 re-registration, the old Lotus Elevens would be out-dated and uncompetitive on the track, and rather strange/impractical for road use, though certainly still quick by the standards of the day.

An ideal candidate for re-bodying.

Possibly somebody even thought it a worthwhile candidate for a GRP kit body that didn't get to market......

lotuslover69

269 posts

142 months

Wednesday 15th July 2020
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The wheelbase of this mystery car is far larger than that of an eleven though. More akin to something like a jaguar e type.

Loose_Cannon

1,593 posts

252 months

Thursday 16th July 2020
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My theory is this was originally a 2 seat convertible body, with a low hard top added for "aerodynamics". The doors have been glassed up, hence the white-ish ghost verticle line behind the front wheel, and the cutout made at the waist line to clamber in through the possible backward hinged (or just clipped down) hardtop.

Something similar I was not aware of until yesterday, the Byers SR100 (I still cant get over how there are still cars around that I have nt seen before depsite being an utter car nerd for the past 48 years);

https://www.undiscoveredclassics.com/forgotten-fib...

I dont think the mystery car is this necessarily but it is very similar and deserves analysis. I wish whoever the snapper was of the red car had got a front/grille view as it would have helped enormously.





Close but no cigar? Fuel filler in the right place. Hard to see the kick up in the waistline of the mystery car due to the cutout opening...could the hardtop and rear bulge have been added between the rear fender tails? The shape of the added rear curvature could have been dictated by the available rear windscreen.



Apparently this Byers SR100 design was flogged off to Kellison in the late 50s who produced the more more muscular and flamboyant 1960s J series cars mentioned in other theories (and which it definitely isn't).

This is a red Byers I think next to a white Kellison;





And a Byers shell;





Edited by Loose_Cannon on Friday 17th July 10:15


Edited by Loose_Cannon on Friday 17th July 10:18

borrani72

275 posts

61 months

Monday 20th July 2020
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lotuslover69 said:
The wheelbase of this mystery car is far larger than that of an eleven though. More akin to something like a jaguar e type.
Unfortunately, I don't think there is anything in either picture that gives a really good sense of scale. If the wheel/tyre size were known, for example, then at least we would have a solid clue. The number plate and tail lights are possibly the only scaleable/known items unless anyone can identify the mirrors, fuel flap etc?


In any event, I think the unknown car is too low for an E-Type. The XK is a fairly tall engine. Overlaying an E-Type picture on the mystery car with the wheelbases aligned gives a reasonable idea how they could line-up. The E-Type photo' is from a slightly lower vantage point, making the mystery car look slightly taller against it, and even then the power-bulge of the E-Type is taller and further forward. The roof of the mystery car is far, far lower.



Add to this that the E-Type would have a wider, monocoque shell and I don't believe it can be the Jaguar.


Doing the same for the Lotus Eleven, I think it is a better fit. The Lotus picture is from an even lower vantage point than the mystery car - I have had to align the Lotus wheels higher-up because of this. You can see the bright lower edge of the Lotus rear wheel superimposed over the mystery car wheel. As can be seen, the Coventry-Climax engine would fit under the mystery car bonnet and the drivers head fits comfortably under that very low roofline.



The Lotus Eleven Le Mans has inboard rear brakes and a spaceframe chassis that could be readily adapted to a suitable GRP shell.

Built as a competition car around 1957, it would have been a very suitable if uncommon basis for such a special with a GRP shell.

There were a huge number of GRP shells available in the 1950s and early 1960s, or the builder could have taken moulds from an existing car and made his own.

What is quite distinctive about this one is the sunstantial tumblehome on the body sides - something seen more commonly during the 1950s.


The lift-up (?) roof looks kind of like a DIY version of the 1967 Chevrolet Astro 1 grafted on as a bit of an afterthought..


Edmundo2

1,328 posts

209 months

Monday 20th July 2020
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Looking at the wheels I think they look American, ( rather than Jag ). Allard based?





Edmundo2

1,328 posts

209 months

Tuesday 21st July 2020
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That said the rear windscreen, rear light units, rear reg plate arrangement + wheels could be AC Aceca sourced?


borrani72

275 posts

61 months

Tuesday 21st July 2020
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It would help give an idea of the size of the car if the rear window could be identified. Unfortunately, it could be glass or it might be perspex.

It's too flat to be from the E-Type which has a large bridging curve across its' roof..........





....but, when compared to the width of the number plates, also too narrow to match the AC.


Lily the Pink

5,783 posts

169 months

Tuesday 21st July 2020
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borrani72 said:
The number plate and tail lights are possibly the only scaleable/known items unless anyone can identify the mirrors, fuel flap etc?
Were there many options at the time for the size of the number plate characters ? Likewise the rear indicators - can any of the sleuths here work on their relative sizes ? And that door mirror looks familiar and distinctive; a sort of "racing" style, triangular in plan view and curved to fit the wing/door - though I cannot find one from a quick search - so there might not be too many options, size-wise.

borrani72

275 posts

61 months

Wednesday 22nd July 2020
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I think someone already mentioned that they are Lucas lamps, the brake lights are quite common on British cars from Morris Minors to D-Type Jag's.

If anybody has one to hand, the overall width and height of the bezel could be compared to the pictures to help verify the approximate width of the car.



UK number plates were usually hand-painted by sign-writers in the early days, but by the late 1950s - early 1960s they were either 3.5 inch high figures or the new 3.25 inch type that were by then the new standard.

Unfortunately, various manufacturers produced letters/numbers in slightly different typefaces and in both sizes although this would at least give a range of possible sizes for the car. Being a 1965 'C'-suffix, I suspect it must by then have been the 3.25 inch letters, unless someone knows more on this?




I still think the Lotus Eleven would be quite a likely base, as there is little-else that is so low. I did a quick-ish CAD model of the rolling-chassis for comparison.









The pink lollipops were aligned with Graham Hill's head to give an idea of the headroom under that low roof. Hill's brother has stated that he was 5'10" tall, to give an idea of scale.






The alignment with the photo' isn't quite right yet, but it gives the general idea.






I stiil need to add the engine position and get the number plates (both types - larger and smaller figures) in the right place.

borrani72

275 posts

61 months

Thursday 23rd July 2020
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Devin GRP shell, here fitted to a Triumph TR3.





Doors and wheelarches were cut by the customer, so something with a shorter wheelbase (Like the Lotus Eleven) would have the rear wheelarch further forward, so the longer/deeper rear wing of the mystery car looks about right.

TR3 wheelbase is 2238 mm, Lotus Eleven 2159 mm. About 3 inches shorter than the Triumph.


Another Devin SS Monza, but on a different chassis.





Another TR3................



lotuslover69

269 posts

142 months

Sunday 4th October 2020
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what makes me think it isnt a lotus eleven is that the cars value would be to high to be just sitting outside like that. also the body looks 60s probably mid 60s as opposed to the eleven which is mid to late 50s.

I also think it likely has gullwings that are set a little bit back in roof line as opposed to some fancy opening top.

borrani72

275 posts

61 months

Monday 5th October 2020
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A high-value car today, but do we know when the picture was taken, or how long the car has been there? It could have been there, waiting to be fixed, for years. It wouldn't be the first time this has happened, even to old Ferraris, Maseratis etc......

The proportions are very close to the Lotus Eleven. Of course, it's only a working theory, though it's hard to think of anything else that has:

Very low build;
Very low engine;
Seats that sit right back against the rear axle line;
Inboard rear brakes.


The front brakes, bizarrely, seem to be drums (odd with inboard rear brakes). The Eleven would have used discs. I can only guess that they are a low-cost retro-fit from the Lotus parts bin (the drums on early Sevens were Ford parts, I think).

Would that be possible?

The CAD model of the Eleven chassis fits the images. I tried widening the track by an inch (as the wheels are wider than the Lotus originals), and even such a small change could not be made to fit, at least suggestive of it being the Lotus.






I am fairly sure it's an early Devin body (heavily altered). One of the '295' series, as seen below.

('295' was the dollar selling price in the US, for all sizes in the range).

The size variations were created using a complex modular mould system, with different mould sections bolted together in different configurations for each version. For example, different centre sections for each width, different cockpit-side sections for long or short versions, as well as variations on wings, nose, valances etc. to give a huge range of options.

Very clever, very complicated and very confusing! And the proportions differ between all of them, so that one Devin body may not look all that much like a slightly longer or wider version........



Assuming it is a Lotus Eleven, the recommended body (by WB and track, from the brochure guide, above) would be the 'D' size, but that wouldn't fit with the CAD model (too wide), so it would have to be the narrower 'B' version that was used. This fits with the width of the tyres on the CAD model quite closely, and the builder would have been able to use the body-width (rather than track) to make his own decision as to the best fit.

(Helpfully, Devin later used the names 'Devin C' and 'Devin D' for complete cars, though these are entirely different and unrelated to the 'C' and 'D' size bodies above!)

As lotuslover69 says, the body looks 1960s, and the Eleven was late 1950s, but I'm assuming that it's a replacement for the aluminium original which would be expensive to repair, and certainly not a DIY job, like working in fibre-glass could be.



Devin '295' bodies were introduced in the late 1950s, and the original (A-size?) was a direct copy of the 1955 Ermini 357.










Here is a 'B' sized Devin '295' body (on a Crossley chassis). At first glance, it doesn't look much like 'KUR 3C'. But when you look at details – the forward slant of the top of the rear wheel-arch, and the tumble-home of the body seen behind the front wheel, you quickly find similarities.








Here are the same images, with the Lotus chassis superimposed, plus a rough idea of the body alterations drawn-in. There would have been quite a lot of GRP work to the upper part of the rear body to match the near-flat back window line, though not beyond a committed builder.








Raised rear wing-line etc, (see 'hatched' area on the top picture)



The alterations would have been, essentially, the new roof (with some infill below the windows to infill the original cockpit cutout), door/roof hatch, and that distinctive number-plate surround, raised rear deck area and raised rear-wing tops. The flat-top of the front wheel-arch would have been cut-out to a rounded shape to clear the tyres (which makes sense, assuming this is the narrower 'B' body as mentioned above).

The fuel tank on the Eleven was behind one front wheel, with the filler above. This would have needed to be moved to the rear, though there is plenty of space for a rear tank. The alternative would have been to cut a hole through the front wing top (and extend the filler neck?). A rear tank may have been easier. It would also stop people assuming it was Beetle-based.............





The roof is confusing. Looking closely at enlarged pictures, there appears to be a shut-line running right across the roof at the trailing-edge. The right-hand door is sitting 'up' at the front, suggesting (possibly) a rear-hinge with a flip-up panel.

The reverse-slope of the leading-edge of the doors (the line of the 'B' post) would be necessary for this arrangement to work – if the front, lower corners of the doors were much further forward, they could not be opened upwards (with a rear-hinged flip-up panel, that is).

The right hand door, standing 'up' at the forward-edge as it does, shows the shut line near the centre of the roof. But is this on the centre-line, or is there a central, fixed panel?




What I cannot tell from the picture, is what the dark line to the left of the roof is. It doesn't look like a reflection of anything (there is nothing there to be reflected), but is this a shut-line, or is it some other object sitting on the roof? I can't decide where the centreline of the roof is..............

If the doors are gullwing, and if the doors both open along the centre of the roof (with no fixed centre panel separating them) then where would the hinges be, and how would you fit rubber seals? I'm not saying that it couldn't be done, but it would be very difficult and create a lot of unnecessary difficulties.


I still suspect the roof hinges at the back, and that it was inspired by the Chevrolet Astro 1 show car from 1967. This is quite speculative, of course, but the shape of the side-window is also rather close.........

IF this is right, it suggests a build date for the body some time from late 1967, although either way it could have had a more 'standard', open version of the Devin body for some time previosly, the roof being a later addition.

Stigproducts

1,730 posts

270 months

Monday 5th October 2020
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Pretty good stuff. I'm finding that a very plausable explanation, the overall lines minus the roof are a strong match.

Looking at the picture of the red car with the number on it, I suspect the reason this car was laid up was that the owner realised he couldn't fit in it, and there were no midgets willing to buy it.

Loose_Cannon

1,593 posts

252 months

Tuesday 6th October 2020
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borrani72 said:
What I cannot tell from the picture, is what the dark line to the left of the roof is. It doesn't look like a reflection of anything (there is nothing there to be reflected), but is this a shut-line, or is it some other object sitting on the roof? I can't decide where the centreline of the roof is..............
Could the reflection be the telegraph pole or whatever the brown column is in the left of the side-profile picture?

garryb said:
Like the "little blue car" mystery, is anyone getting the feeling this picture has been artistically enhanced? In many ways it looks like a colourised black and white; how the tree trunk, pole, and pretty much all the background feels flat and without depth, and the reflection in the vehicle's glazed surfaces has no colour. Even the transitions between green grass and blue tarp look oddly blurred next to the wheels.


Edited by Loose_Cannon on Tuesday 6th October 15:51

borrani72

275 posts

61 months

Wednesday 7th October 2020
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The telegraph pole is about the right shape and colour to make a reflection like that, but it would have to be in front of the car to reflect along the length of the roof that way - I just tried it with a toy car and a pencil to be sure. There may be another pole just out of shot, but the more I look at it, the more I think it's the top edge of the left-hand door, with a fixed centre-panel between them. Thinking about it, this would make sense whether the doors are gullwing or hinged at the rear because, either way, they need to seal against something.

I already tried, a few months back, adding the rear window to the CAD model. I used the edge of the RH door as the centre-line of the car, and no matter what I tried, I could not make it fit. It needs to match the edges all-around, left and right side, and then in both pictures - if it doesn't fit everywhere, then it is wrong.

Looking at the pictures afresh, I'm seeing things I hadn't noticed before (including what I think is a red truck cab with an amber roof-light behind the bushes!), so if I can get the time, I may have another go at that back window, but taking the centre-line between the two shut-lines this time.




I'm not getting any sense of editing with this picture, though you are right that it's blurry when you look up-close. I'm geussing it was from a camera-phone.

I tried to lighten and sharpen the area under the body for clues (if it's a Lotus Eleven, you would see the lower edges of the frame, for example), but frustratingly, it was too blurry and dark to get anything useful.

For a while I though I might be seeing a fixing visible just behind the rear tyre, but looking again, I'm certain this was just my imagination! There's so much 'noise' in the picture that if there is anything there, it's lost in all the fuzziness. Unless someone has better software/know-how than me..........


lotuslover69

269 posts

142 months

Thursday 15th October 2020
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvYaXaVRbTU

The WB special is another Lotus Eleven special, personally i think this car isn't low enough to be a Lotus Eleven based special but i guess i could be wrong.




Justin Case

2,195 posts

133 months

Thursday 15th October 2020
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The mystery car seems to have wheels with chunkier tyres and more spokes than the Lotus 11, which suggests a chassis from a sports rather than racing car. A lot of specials and kit cars from the 60s seemed to have multiple owners, as each one in succession failed to make a go of it, so my theory is that someone has taken over an existing model, tried modifying and come to the logical conclusion that it wouldn't actually sell. I wouldn't be surprised if the chassis was pre 1950, even an early TR2 or Lotus would have been worth something in 1965. I know that doesn't help much but it might help ruling out some otherwise good suggestions.