Discussion
lotuslover69 said:
The WB special is another Lotus Eleven special, personally i think this car isn't low enough to be a Lotus Eleven based special but i guess i could be wrong.
The WB makes an interesting comparison. You can compare the approximate centreline from 'KUR' in these CAD images.
'KUR's body sits a couple of inches higher over the engine, and the rear window is much higher, though the roofline is approximately the same height.
Overall, 'KUR's body is taller, but the roofline extremely low. The view out must be like looking through a letter-box.
Justin Case said:
The mystery car seems to have wheels with chunkier tyres and more spokes than the Lotus 11, which suggests a chassis from a sports rather than racing car. A lot of specials and kit cars from the 60s seemed to have multiple owners, as each one in succession failed to make a go of it, so my theory is that someone has taken over an existing model, tried modifying and come to the logical conclusion that it wouldn't actually sell. I wouldn't be surprised if the chassis was pre 1950, even an early TR2 or Lotus would have been worth something in 1965. I know that doesn't help much but it might help ruling out some otherwise good suggestions.
Unfortunately, the top picture is too low-resolution to make-out the exact spoke pattern, but I agree that the original, factory spec. wheels on the Lotus look more delicate, as do the tyres. In the lower image, the spokes are attached to the rim very close to the edge, but those on 'KUR' appear to be set further from the edge.
But, whatever the unknown car is, changing the wheels would be pretty simple for anyone capable of changing the entire body.
If it is based on something pre-1950, then it seems extremely low. I can't think of anything that would fit, especially with inboard rear brakes. That isn't to say that it's not, but what could it be?
If it was a crashed Eleven, then the cost of a body rebuild could easily have been far higher that a new GRP shell.
The rear of a Costin designed Maserati, i get the impression the unknown car may be a Costin designed car as well.
The rear of the Costin designed Lister Jaguar Coupe. I believe this is based on an E type and has similarities dimension wise to this car.
Edited by lotuslover69 on Saturday 24th October 05:18
Strangely, my own investigations have been taking me rather in the opposite direction. I'm now thinking that the car may have had a Costin-designed body originally, but that this was then replaced with an aftermarket GRP body.
If the body of 'KUR' was by Costin, I doubt it would have such square, unaerodynamic 'screen-pillars. The roof looks a little too home-made to me, especially that fussy door/windscreen/side window arrangenent.
I did some digging through a couple of old books and found this, which seems to have the same distinctive hole pattern as the wheel-spinners on 'KUR 3C':
Note that where the hollow-centre is in the black and white image (originally from The Autocar, December 2nd 1955), there is a subtle but distinct colour-change on the later picture. Some sort of plug seems to have been fitted.
The car in the top image is a Lotus Mark IX.
The Lotus VIII, IX and X, immediate predecessors to the Eleven, have broadly similar proportions. All three share wheelbase and track dimensions with one another, though slightly larger than those for the Eleven. They also had the inboard rear-brakes.
Lotus VII, IX and X - Eleven dimensions in brackets.
Wheelbase: 87.5 inches [85 inches]
Front Track: 48.5 inches [47 inches]
Rear Track: 47.5 inches [47 inches]
The car pictured by Autocar (the above wheel detail, and below - seen reprinted in Brookland's 'Lotus Sports Racers Gold Portfolio, 1953-1965' p. 32) is 'XPE 6', one of the prototype Lotus MK IXs – the direct predecessor of the Lotus Eleven. Of the two prototypes, one had an MG engine, whilst 'XPE 6' had a Coventry Climax unit. The body was designed by aerodynamacist Frank Costin.
These two pictures (above) are from 2nd December 1955 Autocar test conducted by Peter Garnier.
Drilled spinner just about visible in a detail from the above image.
The only cars I can find pictures of with these distinctive, drilled spinners are 'XPE 6' and '7 DPU', so I am wondering whether other cars had them? As pictured, '7 DPU' has a drilled spinner on the front, but a solid one on the rear. 'XPE 6' is known to still exist, having been first registered in 1993, suggesting a period off the road/overseas maybe. '7 DPU' is not listed by DVLA, and can't be found on Google. Does it still exist, or could 'KUR 3C' be the same car?
'XPE 6' was the car driven by Colin Chapman and Ron Flockhart at Le Mans in 1955, then raced with some success by Chapman, whilst also setting several track records in its class. It was road tested by several motoring magazines at the time.
Chapman/Flockhart MK IX, Le Mans, June 1955. Standard wheel-spinners.
Chapman, later that year, taking victory in the under 1200cc class at Brands hatch. Just visible (though clearer in the book image), is the drilled hole in the front spinner.
The drilled spinners are not on the car as pictured at Le Mans 1955, but seem to have been fitted (or drilled-out) prior to events later that year, including the Peter Garnier road test that was also conducted after Le Mans (published Dec 2nd, 1955). The car was being actively campaigned by Colin Chapman at the time the drilled spinners first appear, suggesting that it was probably Lotus works “added lightness”.
As none of the other cars I found period pictures of have them, I'm guessing that the drilled spinners were a 'works' modification, or possibly a special-order option.
By aligning the spinners from these pictures, and measuring/calculating the ratio of the tyre sizes, 'KUR 3C' appears to be fitted with 13 inch wheels (as suggested by piper right back on page 1). The factory items fitted to a Lotus (VIII, IX, X or Eleven) was 15 inch.
13 inch would be a common size, as they were the standard fitment on the Sprite/Midget, which gives an idea of how small 'KUR' appears to be.
If the body of 'KUR' was by Costin, I doubt it would have such square, unaerodynamic 'screen-pillars. The roof looks a little too home-made to me, especially that fussy door/windscreen/side window arrangenent.
I did some digging through a couple of old books and found this, which seems to have the same distinctive hole pattern as the wheel-spinners on 'KUR 3C':
Note that where the hollow-centre is in the black and white image (originally from The Autocar, December 2nd 1955), there is a subtle but distinct colour-change on the later picture. Some sort of plug seems to have been fitted.
The car in the top image is a Lotus Mark IX.
The Lotus VIII, IX and X, immediate predecessors to the Eleven, have broadly similar proportions. All three share wheelbase and track dimensions with one another, though slightly larger than those for the Eleven. They also had the inboard rear-brakes.
Lotus VII, IX and X - Eleven dimensions in brackets.
Wheelbase: 87.5 inches [85 inches]
Front Track: 48.5 inches [47 inches]
Rear Track: 47.5 inches [47 inches]
The car pictured by Autocar (the above wheel detail, and below - seen reprinted in Brookland's 'Lotus Sports Racers Gold Portfolio, 1953-1965' p. 32) is 'XPE 6', one of the prototype Lotus MK IXs – the direct predecessor of the Lotus Eleven. Of the two prototypes, one had an MG engine, whilst 'XPE 6' had a Coventry Climax unit. The body was designed by aerodynamacist Frank Costin.
These two pictures (above) are from 2nd December 1955 Autocar test conducted by Peter Garnier.
Drilled spinner just about visible in a detail from the above image.
The only cars I can find pictures of with these distinctive, drilled spinners are 'XPE 6' and '7 DPU', so I am wondering whether other cars had them? As pictured, '7 DPU' has a drilled spinner on the front, but a solid one on the rear. 'XPE 6' is known to still exist, having been first registered in 1993, suggesting a period off the road/overseas maybe. '7 DPU' is not listed by DVLA, and can't be found on Google. Does it still exist, or could 'KUR 3C' be the same car?
'XPE 6' was the car driven by Colin Chapman and Ron Flockhart at Le Mans in 1955, then raced with some success by Chapman, whilst also setting several track records in its class. It was road tested by several motoring magazines at the time.
Chapman/Flockhart MK IX, Le Mans, June 1955. Standard wheel-spinners.
Chapman, later that year, taking victory in the under 1200cc class at Brands hatch. Just visible (though clearer in the book image), is the drilled hole in the front spinner.
The drilled spinners are not on the car as pictured at Le Mans 1955, but seem to have been fitted (or drilled-out) prior to events later that year, including the Peter Garnier road test that was also conducted after Le Mans (published Dec 2nd, 1955). The car was being actively campaigned by Colin Chapman at the time the drilled spinners first appear, suggesting that it was probably Lotus works “added lightness”.
As none of the other cars I found period pictures of have them, I'm guessing that the drilled spinners were a 'works' modification, or possibly a special-order option.
By aligning the spinners from these pictures, and measuring/calculating the ratio of the tyre sizes, 'KUR 3C' appears to be fitted with 13 inch wheels (as suggested by piper right back on page 1). The factory items fitted to a Lotus (VIII, IX, X or Eleven) was 15 inch.
13 inch would be a common size, as they were the standard fitment on the Sprite/Midget, which gives an idea of how small 'KUR' appears to be.
I just checked my book which gives a list of all Lotus VI, VIII, IX, X and sadly the registration KUR 3C was never issued to any of those cars. It still could be a Lotus VI based car but it is def not based on a Lotus VIII or X as those cars are quite well known and accounted for. There is a slim possibility it could be a Lotus IX bodied car but very unlikely.
The registration 'KUR 3C' would have been issued during 1965, so a few years after any of the early Lotus models (VI, VIII, IX, X, Eleven) we are discussing. It was, however, fairly common for used cars to be issued with new registration suffixes back then for various reasons.
For example, if the car had been previosly registered overseas, or only used on-track, that could explain it. It could also be that it was re-registered simply because it had a replacement body and became a 'special', or had been built from the remains of two damaged cars, was an insurance write-off, or was simply a kit not completed until 1965. The rules were far less strict in 1965.
There seems to be some confusion as to exactly how many Mark IXs were built. Various sources quote between 22 and 30 cars, with most suppied as kits. Understandably, the early years at Lotus were not well documented, which would seem to make it impossible to rule-out the possibility by using production records alone.
As you say, it could be a MKVI chassis, though the standard kit wouldn't have the De Dion back axle/inboard brakes. I did come across at least one that had this arrangement (retrofitted, I suspect), but it seems to me to be somewhat less likely to be a Mark VI as to being a Mark IX, if only for this reason. Of course, all these models had a certain degree of interchangability, so it could be some type of hybrid.
As '7 DPU' seems to be the only other car pictured with the drilled spinners, is its fate listed in your book?
Do these 'lightweight' spinners appear on other cars in any of your books?
In any event, whatever the unknown car is, I don't think it is going to be something commonplace. The proportions are so unusual for most sports cars. The chances of it being a MK IX Lotus can be no worse than being some unknown Costin project.
For example, if the car had been previosly registered overseas, or only used on-track, that could explain it. It could also be that it was re-registered simply because it had a replacement body and became a 'special', or had been built from the remains of two damaged cars, was an insurance write-off, or was simply a kit not completed until 1965. The rules were far less strict in 1965.
There seems to be some confusion as to exactly how many Mark IXs were built. Various sources quote between 22 and 30 cars, with most suppied as kits. Understandably, the early years at Lotus were not well documented, which would seem to make it impossible to rule-out the possibility by using production records alone.
As you say, it could be a MKVI chassis, though the standard kit wouldn't have the De Dion back axle/inboard brakes. I did come across at least one that had this arrangement (retrofitted, I suspect), but it seems to me to be somewhat less likely to be a Mark VI as to being a Mark IX, if only for this reason. Of course, all these models had a certain degree of interchangability, so it could be some type of hybrid.
As '7 DPU' seems to be the only other car pictured with the drilled spinners, is its fate listed in your book?
Do these 'lightweight' spinners appear on other cars in any of your books?
In any event, whatever the unknown car is, I don't think it is going to be something commonplace. The proportions are so unusual for most sports cars. The chances of it being a MK IX Lotus can be no worse than being some unknown Costin project.
From Motorsport, May 2003
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article...
Mike Costin, who was technical director at Lotus when the Mk IX was develeoped, spoke to Keith Howard at Motorsport Magazine.
Here's an excerpt.
"The next generation of Lotus racing cars, from the Type 12, would be fitted with the trademark ‘wobbly web’ cast wheels, but the IX still used classic Borrani wire wheels. “The Borranis were okay, just expensive [about £16 each]. With either Dunlop or Borrani wheels you had to have the expensive splined hub, and the wheel nuts weighed a ton"."
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/archive/article...
Mike Costin, who was technical director at Lotus when the Mk IX was develeoped, spoke to Keith Howard at Motorsport Magazine.
Here's an excerpt.
"The next generation of Lotus racing cars, from the Type 12, would be fitted with the trademark ‘wobbly web’ cast wheels, but the IX still used classic Borrani wire wheels. “The Borranis were okay, just expensive [about £16 each]. With either Dunlop or Borrani wheels you had to have the expensive splined hub, and the wheel nuts weighed a ton"."
7 dpu was bought by a private collector in the 60s, pretty much the last entry for the car in the book.
I believe there is no confusion with the IX cars that were sold in the uk, it is the USA cars where there is an issue. There are 18 uk cars and supposedly there are 13 USA/CAN cars but only 9 are known and i think this is the issue. The uk cars are accounted for which is why i dont think it would be a Lotus IX based car.
I believe there is no confusion with the IX cars that were sold in the uk, it is the USA cars where there is an issue. There are 18 uk cars and supposedly there are 13 USA/CAN cars but only 9 are known and i think this is the issue. The uk cars are accounted for which is why i dont think it would be a Lotus IX based car.
I don't know if it's already been covered here, but KUR3C would have been issued by Hertfordshire. There is a possibility that registration records have been retained by the local authority and can be accessed in the relevant Records Office. From what I remember of my only experience of searching such paper records (for Warwickshire), searches revealed the manufacturer/dealer and engine size.
Wasn't '7 DPU' a UK car? It had a UK registration number, and has at least one of the lightweight, drilled spinners fitted in-period. And it hasn't been heard of since the 1960s. Perhaps '7 DPU' was re-registered as 'KUR 3C' during 1965. From what information I have presently, it looks at least a possible candidate.
What details are there in your book? Does it list the original buyer, or give a date or other detail for that last listed sale?
This looks a lot like a professional, staged publicity picture. Perhaps taken for Lotus? Does anybody recognise the location?
Here's a very big version of this picture that can be downloaded
http://townofmotors.com/startDownload
Below are some interesting details. Don't know what the three shields are, but the Union Jack on the body, plus the UK registration suggest that it was originally one of the UK cars, whose current status is unknown. Does anybody recognise the driver?
What details are there in your book? Does it list the original buyer, or give a date or other detail for that last listed sale?
This looks a lot like a professional, staged publicity picture. Perhaps taken for Lotus? Does anybody recognise the location?
Here's a very big version of this picture that can be downloaded
http://townofmotors.com/startDownload
Below are some interesting details. Don't know what the three shields are, but the Union Jack on the body, plus the UK registration suggest that it was originally one of the UK cars, whose current status is unknown. Does anybody recognise the driver?
borrani72 said:
Don't know what the three shields are, but the Union Jack on the body, plus the UK registration suggest that it was originally one of the UK cars, whose current status is unknown.
The one to the right of the number plate looks like BARC to me, while the one on the helmet must surely be Scottish (blazoned as "Lion Rampant with three somethings in Chief").Edited by Lily the Pink on Saturday 24th October 21:35
borrani72 said:
Not sure that heraldry will help, but it's an interesting exercise. That coat of arms could be similar to either Jennings :
or Russell :
I see there was a Herbert James (Jim) Russell (1920-2019) who was a racing driver and lived in Norfolk. Maybe a red herring rather than a red lion.
Amazing! And I didn't think we'd get anywhere with the three crests!
Willhire89, I think you've got it. All the blurry blobs are in the same place. You can't read the text, but all the words are the right length, including the '&'.
lotuslover69 gave us this yesterday.....
"7 dpu was bought by a private collector in the 60s, pretty much the last entry for the car in the book.
I believe there is no confusion with the IX cars that were sold in the uk, it is the USA cars where there is an issue. There are 18 uk cars and supposedly there are 13 USA/CAN cars but only 9 are known and i think this is the issue. The uk cars are accounted for which is why i dont think it would be a Lotus IX based car".
There seems to be a lot of confusion about the number of MKIXs built. Lotuslover69s book claims 31, one of the Lotus clubs states that there were 30. Other sources say 22.
But there are clearly gaps, even when some history is known. Tantilisingly, '7 DPU' hasn't been heard of the the '60s. That's over 50 years unaccounted for............
How many cars are known today, or were known at any time after 1965 (when the registration 'KUR 3C' was issued)?
Lily the Pink said:
..............the one on the helmet must surely be Scottish (blazoned as "Lion Rampant with three somethings in Chief").
Don't know if this helps much, but perhaps marginally clearer............Willhire89, I think you've got it. All the blurry blobs are in the same place. You can't read the text, but all the words are the right length, including the '&'.
lotuslover69 gave us this yesterday.....
"7 dpu was bought by a private collector in the 60s, pretty much the last entry for the car in the book.
I believe there is no confusion with the IX cars that were sold in the uk, it is the USA cars where there is an issue. There are 18 uk cars and supposedly there are 13 USA/CAN cars but only 9 are known and i think this is the issue. The uk cars are accounted for which is why i dont think it would be a Lotus IX based car".
There seems to be a lot of confusion about the number of MKIXs built. Lotuslover69s book claims 31, one of the Lotus clubs states that there were 30. Other sources say 22.
But there are clearly gaps, even when some history is known. Tantilisingly, '7 DPU' hasn't been heard of the the '60s. That's over 50 years unaccounted for............
How many cars are known today, or were known at any time after 1965 (when the registration 'KUR 3C' was issued)?
iDrive said:
It does feel like there is a line of enquiry that hasn't been followed - The origin of the photo (who took it, where it appeared etc)
Can the OP link to the Social Media post it appeared in?
A Google reverse image search:Can the OP link to the Social Media post it appeared in?
https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sbi:AMhZZiv69z89...
leads into a maze of re-tweets and re-posts..........
https://twitter.com/explodingwalrus/status/1256238...
Bujt this one has the highest resolution images.............
https://imgur.com/a/frYL9ag
borrani72 said:
A Google reverse image search:
https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sbi:AMhZZiv69z89...
leads into a maze of re-tweets and re-posts..........
It seems to have been doing the rounds for some years. It'll take a lot of detective work to track down the first enquiry!https://www.google.com/search?tbs=sbi:AMhZZiv69z89...
leads into a maze of re-tweets and re-posts..........
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