Ultra rare mk 1 Escort at upcoming auction
Discussion
Shezbo said:
Lester H said:
Yep. I had an Escort Sport from nearly new(NEC 567P, nice reg from Lakeland Ford) it was a seriously basic Escort ,white with the red stripe and black vinyl seats, like the Pop ,which went a bit faster than a 1.1. Nice faux Minilites, though.Apart from a lovely ‘snick-snick’ gear change it was really just a very ordinary car of its time : seriously basic compared to the Ghia with its soundproofing and thicker carpets, etc ...arguably a little above average. Ironic now to see it hyped above Avengers, Vauxhall Magnum,Renault 10 Gordini, Fiat Mirafiori etc.
You are 100% - I owned in order a Mk1 Escort 1300GT, Mk2 Escort 1600Sport and a Mk2 RS2000. All were basic, all were noisy, all needed a 5 speed gearbox very badly and build quality was also very low rent (the 1600 Sport in particular).Edited by Lester H on Tuesday 18th May 23:07
Would I like to own any of them again - probably - however, the VW Golf I owned just few short years later was so much better in every dept.
I can live with the Escort hype, however, I don't 'get' the (very very) silly prices....they are just not worth the money?
Would I want another Mk1 Gti 1800 - no. It was a decent car and I’m glad I owned it but don’t want another one.
Would I like another Mk2 RS2000? Absolutely
I thought I’d been there and done it but a friend bought a useable one for 15k a few years back and it’s blummin brilliant
I’d also like a really tidy Mk1 1300 Sport or GT but don’t quite have the spare funds at the moment
Guess we all like different stuff
Touring442 said:
I'd have a steel bumper Alfasud Ti over any Escort. They were just in a different league.
That's not the point why most people want an Escort though is it.It's technical competence (or its lack off) as a road car compared to something like a 'sud (or as mentioned a Golf GTi) is irrelevant for most of us.
You can't pretend you're Hannu or Ari at the wheel of a 'sud, as brilliant as they are, and for most of us of a certain age, the humble Escort is and always will be the greatest rally car of all time, and its connection to Boreham and everything around that era that will always make it that bit special. Its demand as a competition car still, over half a century later says it all.
pingu393 said:
Touring442 said:
"Most people".
OK.
I think he means "most people who want an Escort", not "most people want an Escort" - and I think you know that OK.
I certainly dont desire a Sud, but a nice RS1800 would or even a mk1 Mexico would be nice. An Alfa while maybe a better car, just doesn't have the retro desire as it has no connection for me, no personal history and my dad didn't have a Sud but he did have a twin cam escort.
Gary C said:
Yep
I certainly dont desire a Sud, but a nice RS1800 would or even a mk1 Mexico would be nice. An Alfa while maybe a better car, just doesn't have the retro desire as it has no connection for me, no personal history and my dad didn't have a Sud but he did have a twin cam escort.
My old Man had a Mexico new in '74.I certainly dont desire a Sud, but a nice RS1800 would or even a mk1 Mexico would be nice. An Alfa while maybe a better car, just doesn't have the retro desire as it has no connection for me, no personal history and my dad didn't have a Sud but he did have a twin cam escort.
I had both, going back to the mid eighties when TC's, Mexicos and Alfas were all rusty old crap but I'd still prefer an Alfa. The standard of engineering was just on another level. That's just me though.
Touring442 said:
I'd have a steel bumper Alfasud Ti over any Escort. They were just in a different league.
Westune of Bolton, who (under the late Peter West) tuned Ford Anglias etc became Alfa dealers in the ‘70s, and we went out in a ‘cooking’ Sud. It was a revelation compared to my Escort 1600 Sport, so I agree. What a damn shame that they were built from substandard steel. At the opposite end of the build quality spectrum, was the then new Golf. We - me and wife took one out, not a GTi, but mid range and it was total chalk and cheese compared with our Fords. It was just so well made and solid feeling at the time...we bought one: it was like a step change in perceived sophistication. Later on, rusted round the fuel filler, then the wheel arches and leaked oil into the alternator. To cut the waffle: both the Alfa and VW were better cars but the competition history has secured the current value of faster Fords. I did grapple with ‘Economics made Simple’ and this phenomenon is a result of supply and demand.
Edited by Lester H on Friday 21st May 20:47
Edited by Lester H on Friday 21st May 21:00
Gary C said:
pingu393 said:
Touring442 said:
"Most people".
OK.
I think he means "most people who want an Escort", not "most people want an Escort" - and I think you know that OK.
I certainly dont desire a Sud, but a nice RS1800 would or even a mk1 Mexico would be nice. An Alfa while maybe a better car, just doesn't have the retro desire as it has no connection for me, no personal history and my dad didn't have a Sud but he did have a twin cam escort.
I think the realisation for him was that he should have got a 2000GTV which would have had more ‘go’. Never remember them being that common even back in the 80s but we all had a good ‘dice’ back from the coast with a sportily driven 2000GTV and they shifted pretty well like a 2-litre RS.
If I was to have something Italian from that era it would most likely be a 2000GTV.
Thing is the prices are pretty much the same as Escorts now
Tyre Smoke said:
Comparable 2000gtv aren't that price because of the err, Ford I mean Alfa tax. It's because they are so much rarer being water soluble and all that.
Yes, the old Alfa tax looks just as hefty as the old Ford taxseeing the prices now
Then again, most of the fun to drive cars from that era are big money at the moment ( although there’s always a cheaper one somewhere )
I’m sure the 1300 Junior was only around £900 back in the mid 80s so they like they’ve shot up like Escorts too.
I do remember there was a 2000GTV for sale at around 3k back then but either was a bit steep for his pockets back then. As you say, they weren’t particularly widespread even back then
By the end of the century they’d gone up to around 5k at a garage. Went with a friend to look at an E30 M3 around 1999 and they had one next to the M3 at much the same price
Sure we/I have discussed this before, but for me, and many likeminded car enthusiasts, apart from the obvious and highly impressive rally heritage, the main attraction of the Mk 1 and 2 Escorts is the RWD handing.
Yes, I have driven early Golf and Peugeot GTI’s, R5 Turbo and other comparable and aged FWD “hot hatches” and whilst all were a bit of fun, I could not take to the FWD handling characteristics, not being able to power slide to me, was/is a big turn off.
I agree, say a standard Mk 2 1600 4 door, is a dull, slow noisy car, but even they were fun to chuck around.
Naturally take an RS version add some performance of which there is a Vast supply or parts, then and now and then you get something that is a complete hoot to drive, albeit not for 200 miles on a motorway
Yes, I have driven early Golf and Peugeot GTI’s, R5 Turbo and other comparable and aged FWD “hot hatches” and whilst all were a bit of fun, I could not take to the FWD handling characteristics, not being able to power slide to me, was/is a big turn off.
I agree, say a standard Mk 2 1600 4 door, is a dull, slow noisy car, but even they were fun to chuck around.
Naturally take an RS version add some performance of which there is a Vast supply or parts, then and now and then you get something that is a complete hoot to drive, albeit not for 200 miles on a motorway
Mark A S said:
Sure we/I have discussed this before, but for me, and many likeminded car enthusiasts, apart from the obvious and highly impressive rally heritage, the main attraction of the Mk 1 and 2 Escorts is the RWD handing.
Yes, I have driven early Golf and Peugeot GTI’s, R5 Turbo and other comparable and aged FWD “hot hatches” and whilst all were a bit of fun, I could not take to the FWD handling characteristics, not being able to power slide to me, was/is a big turn off.
I agree, say a standard Mk 2 1600 4 door, is a dull, slow noisy car, but even they were fun to chuck around.
Naturally take an RS version add some performance of which there is a Vast supply or parts, then and now and then you get something that is a complete hoot to drive, albeit not for 200 miles on a motorway
Yes, got to agree Yes, I have driven early Golf and Peugeot GTI’s, R5 Turbo and other comparable and aged FWD “hot hatches” and whilst all were a bit of fun, I could not take to the FWD handling characteristics, not being able to power slide to me, was/is a big turn off.
I agree, say a standard Mk 2 1600 4 door, is a dull, slow noisy car, but even they were fun to chuck around.
Naturally take an RS version add some performance of which there is a Vast supply or parts, then and now and then you get something that is a complete hoot to drive, albeit not for 200 miles on a motorway
That was/is one of the big attractions of them. So light and fun to throw around - you can still get so many tuning bits/options for them reasonably cheap. You don’t tend to lose much if any on the car either at present if you buy a useable one
craig_m67 said:
The Sud is a better (drivers) car than the GT/GTV. I’ve owned multiples of both.
The Sud Sprint is the one to have, that’s the one I miss 30yrs later.
Trouble is , as someone mentioned above, most of them have now dissolved so there’ll never be as much interest in them as there is with the Alfa 105s and Escorts along with all the tuning/modifying avenues available as with the Alfaholics car/historic rallying/repro body shells etcThe Sud Sprint is the one to have, that’s the one I miss 30yrs later.
No doubt they were a great car out the box but I have no personal experience other than a friend’s rusty old one to spike my interest.
Edited by s m on Saturday 22 May 12:56
craig_m67 said:
The Sud is a better (drivers) car than the GT/GTV. I’ve owned multiples of both.
The Sud Sprint is the one to have, that’s the one I miss 30yrs later.
Agreed. I never warmed to the 105 Alfa but didn't drive them enough. The Sud Sprint is the one to have, that’s the one I miss 30yrs later.
As for RWD stuff, the bog standard 1256cc Chevette was far better than the bog Escort. Folk don't realise just how well they handled - every bit as good as an AVO car. But Opel's suspension development was far better than Fords which is why a Manta would run rings around a Capri. But Roger Clark didn't win the RAC in a Chevette so automatically they're not Escort money.
Touring442 said:
As for RWD stuff, the bog standard 1256cc Chevette was far better than the bog Escort. Folk don't realise just how well they handled - every bit as good as an AVO car. But Opel's suspension development was far better than Fords which is why a Manta would run rings around a Capri. But Roger Clark didn't win the RAC in a Chevette so automatically they're not Escort money.
Problem with the Shoveit, was that Vauxhall just wasn't interested in putting money into developing the car as a competition car, with no works effort (under GM instruction). All they had was what Bill B did with the Dealer Team stuff money at Shepreth. As a result there was the huge parts and aftermarket parts available as with Ford. As a road car, while they did have a great chassis, there was only the HS and HSR version with any performance potential. The fact they could have brought out a decent mid/cheap performance version to sit below the HS, and compete with the RS2000, says volume about Vauxhall's indifference to that segment. They had the 2300 single cam engine (even an 1800 or 2000 version as well) which in a Chevette would have been a great and affordable sporting car for the day.
Chrysler/Talbot had the Ti version of the Sunbeam sitting below the Lotus, and in Group A form the Ti was a great and popular rally car.
Having said that, when I looked at getting a HS back in the 80's, while it had a great chassis, it was crap in just about every other department. Poor seats, non-overdrive 5th in the Getrag box, puny 8 gal fuel tank which meant 120 mile tank range on a good day, and even back then in the 80's, engine parts availability was already becoming an issue. Shame really, as they look great and had a great chassis.
The engine to use was the 1.9 and 2.0 Opel engine in the Cavalier, Ascona, Manta and Carlton even though it was really getting g on in years. The slant 4 was a boat anchor really, an oil leaking old tug boat. Opel made a Kadett GTE along those lines with the 115 bhp L Jetronic 20E motor and a 5 speed box. A Chevette built to that spec would have been marvellous.
An era when GM Opel stuff was really good before all that FWD crap that led them to where they are today. In Germany, the Escort never had a following and sold poorly compared to the Golf and Kadett.
An era when GM Opel stuff was really good before all that FWD crap that led them to where they are today. In Germany, the Escort never had a following and sold poorly compared to the Golf and Kadett.
Touring442 said:
The engine to use was the 1.9 and 2.0 Opel engine in the Cavalier, Ascona, Manta and Carlton even though it was really getting g on in years. The slant 4 was a boat anchor really, an oil leaking old tug boat. Opel made a Kadett GTE along those lines with the 115 bhp L Jetronic 20E motor and a 5 speed box. A Chevette built to that spec would have been marvellous.
I was lucky enough to have a short go in a genuine Kadett GT/E back in around 1982, as my motor club Chairman had one.It was a cracking car, and yes, a Chevette version would have been great, but Vauxhall would never have built it.
I'd say from my albeit brief drives of both, the Kadett GT/E was a better car than the Chevette HS.
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