Ultra rare mk 1 Escort at upcoming auction
Discussion
The only 2002 tii I ever drove belonged to Lutterworth garage owner John Burton, he of motor cycle scrambling fame. The turbo, I seem to remember, was either on or off and it must have been a seriously dodgy car in the wet. I assume they are tamer nowadays, because if not and I had one it would only go out on a cloudless day.
The thing that struck me about the 2000GTV that Autocar tested.......was how accurate the speedo was! Even at 3 digit speeds. Bob on at 110mph!
I don’t have any problem with the Escort figures particularly
The GTV and Tii are faster flat out as they have more power ( extra 20bhp )
Acceleration wise they are hampered by the extra 200kg they are carrying over the Escort ( 1050-ish over 850-ish )
Remember the slightly heavier Mk2 RS2000 with the same power (110bhp) turned the same figures pretty much as the Twincam. The Mk1 RS2000 with 10bhp less and a bit more weight than the Twincam was only a couple of tenths behind and 3mph max behind
I don’t have any problem with the Escort figures particularly
The GTV and Tii are faster flat out as they have more power ( extra 20bhp )
Acceleration wise they are hampered by the extra 200kg they are carrying over the Escort ( 1050-ish over 850-ish )
Remember the slightly heavier Mk2 RS2000 with the same power (110bhp) turned the same figures pretty much as the Twincam. The Mk1 RS2000 with 10bhp less and a bit more weight than the Twincam was only a couple of tenths behind and 3mph max behind
You can see the gearing on paper is less than ideal for a showstopping 0-62 time as it can't pull 60 in second*.
That's not everything though. Early E30 320i's had a 3.45 ratio F/D and would crack 60 in a 8 seconds dead as it would do it in second. When they dropped the F/D ratio to 4.1 in '85, the 0-60 time was increased to 9 seconds as it would only do @55 in second requiring a shift into 3rd. Overall though the road the later car was faster.
That's not everything though. Early E30 320i's had a 3.45 ratio F/D and would crack 60 in a 8 seconds dead as it would do it in second. When they dropped the F/D ratio to 4.1 in '85, the 0-60 time was increased to 9 seconds as it would only do @55 in second requiring a shift into 3rd. Overall though the road the later car was faster.
- Edit; neither can the Escort TC.
Edited by Touring442 on Monday 27th July 10:16
Touring442 said:
You can see the gearing on paper is less than ideal for a showstopping 0-62 time as it can't pull 60 in second*.
That's not everything though. Early E30 320i's had a 3.45 ratio F/D and would crack 60 in a 8 seconds dead as it would do it in second. When they dropped the F/D ratio to 4.1 in '85, the 0-60 time was increased to 9 seconds as it would only do @55 in second requiring a shift into 3rd. Overall though the road the later car was faster.
True - that’s why the tii is quicker to 60 than the Escort and Alfa as they have to make 2 changes through the box to hit the 60 marker. The tii only needs oneThat's not everything though. Early E30 320i's had a 3.45 ratio F/D and would crack 60 in a 8 seconds dead as it would do it in second. When they dropped the F/D ratio to 4.1 in '85, the 0-60 time was increased to 9 seconds as it would only do @55 in second requiring a shift into 3rd. Overall though the road the later car was faster.
- Edit; neither can the Escort TC.
Edited by Touring442 on Monday 27th July 10:16
I think the Escort figures are roughly what you’d expect though - I was just intrigued why people thought they looked suspect for a car with that quoted power and weight
In Dan Williamson's book about Escorts (AVO stuff plus GT and TC), the TC 0-60 is quoted at 9.9 seconds - that's more believable.
The RS1600 with the same 3.77 diff was tested at 8.4 seconds and the BDA was a much more serious engine. They were 110-115 bhp standard and you know the Ford press cars will have been perfectly set up.
To put it into perspective, the Elan +2 130 would do the 0-60 dash in 8 seconds. No way would a 105 bhp Escort do the same.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/triggerscarstuff/584...
The RS1600 with the same 3.77 diff was tested at 8.4 seconds and the BDA was a much more serious engine. They were 110-115 bhp standard and you know the Ford press cars will have been perfectly set up.
To put it into perspective, the Elan +2 130 would do the 0-60 dash in 8 seconds. No way would a 105 bhp Escort do the same.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/triggerscarstuff/584...
aeropilot said:
BB49 RS16............ 
Not many of them left.
Well.......we think it's an RS1600.Not many of them left.
The V5 simply says 'Ford Escort' as do most TC and RS1600's. Engine capacity from new was 1600 cc as opposed to 1558 cc.
Ford have no proper records and the whole set up was chaos.
Twin Cams were built at Halewood until June 1971.
RS1600's were built there until Autumn 1970 after which they were built at Aveley (AVO) along with Mexicos.
So for 6-9 months Ford were building Type 49 cars in two factories. I can only guess that Ford had a deal with Colin Chapman (As BMC/BL did with John Cooper) and they had to run the TC out until the bitter end. But who not build everything at AVO?
One of my Dad's friends sold these as new cars, Whites of Taunton who were a Ford and RS dealership. RS1600's were very hard work and you couldn't give the Twin Cam away with Cornflakes once those and especially the Mexico had arrived. They were known to be a cranky thing to drive everyday, heavy on fuel and expensive to insure. Once the RS2000 arrived, the RS1600 sales fell off a cliff and Mexicos were harder to sell, especially those with a Custom pack.
Ford's masterstroke was selling excess body shells in painted and trimmed form. With no purchase tax they were about £350 and you added your own running gear. Withers of Winford were a popular outlet for these but they could be ordered through Ford.
Touring442 said:
In Dan Williamson's book about Escorts (AVO stuff plus GT and TC), the TC 0-60 is quoted at 9.9 seconds - that's more believable.
The RS1600 with the same 3.77 diff was tested at 8.4 seconds and the BDA was a much more serious engine. They were 110-115 bhp standard and you know the Ford press cars will have been perfectly set up.
To put it into perspective, the Elan +2 130 would do the 0-60 dash in 8 seconds. No way would a 105 bhp Escort do the same.
It's generally considered that the original road test/press Twink's were all from the first batch of 25 cars all assembled by the works mechanics at Boreham, and that these cars were all fitted with SE spec TC engines supplied from Lotus, so 115-118bhp, which would fit better with the figures obtained being much closer to the later RS1600 with 120bhp.The RS1600 with the same 3.77 diff was tested at 8.4 seconds and the BDA was a much more serious engine. They were 110-115 bhp standard and you know the Ford press cars will have been perfectly set up.
To put it into perspective, the Elan +2 130 would do the 0-60 dash in 8 seconds. No way would a 105 bhp Escort do the same.
Touring442 said:
In Dan Williamson's book about Escorts (AVO stuff plus GT and TC), the TC 0-60 is quoted at 9.9 seconds - that's more believable.
The RS1600 with the same 3.77 diff was tested at 8.4 seconds and the BDA was a much more serious engine. They were 110-115 bhp standard and you know the Ford press cars will have been perfectly set up.
To put it into perspective, the Elan +2 130 would do the 0-60 dash in 8 seconds. No way would a 105 bhp Escort do the same.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/triggerscarstuff/584...
Well it quotes it as 109bhp - approx 833kg in the Motor road test - 60 in 8.7The RS1600 with the same 3.77 diff was tested at 8.4 seconds and the BDA was a much more serious engine. They were 110-115 bhp standard and you know the Ford press cars will have been perfectly set up.
To put it into perspective, the Elan +2 130 would do the 0-60 dash in 8 seconds. No way would a 105 bhp Escort do the same.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/triggerscarstuff/584...
Obviously I would expect a press car to be running as well as could be expected
However, the heavier Mk2 RS2000 with the same quoted power (over 10% more weight) was faster to 60 in both the Autocar test ( 8.6 )and the Motor test (8.5)
Admittedly they only had one gear change to 60 but they all hit around the same top speed on the banking ( around 110/112 )
When the Alfa GTV 2000 and BMW 2002tii are both hitting 100mph in a faster time than the Twincam with both having a worse power to weight ratio I can’t see that there’s much unusual with the figures.
How much power do you reckon a Twincam would normally make? What does the book give the 0-100 for the Twincam as? Much slower than the Motor figures?
By the way, that Elan did it in 7.5 seconds according to the timed figures in the test you linked
Edited by s m on Monday 27th July 11:31
s m said:
How much power do you reckon a Twincam would normally make?
Lotus quality control meant they varied enormously, it was pot luck if you got a good one or a bad one, so anything from 100bhp to 115.It was the same with the 911 engine fitted to the Sunbeam-Lotus a decade later, huge variation in standard spec power between engines.
As an aside, i remember there was No difference in performance between my standard Mk 1 RS1600 and my Mates standard Mk 2 RS2000 way back then. The 2000 as you would expect edged away initially with its extra torque, then the BD came on song and caught up, it was the same in all gears.
As we know, torque is king for acceleration.
BTW, some great interesting facts and figures here
As we know, torque is king for acceleration.
BTW, some great interesting facts and figures here
aeropilot said:
Lotus quality control meant they varied enormously, it was pot luck if you got a good one or a bad one, so anything from 100bhp to 115.
It was the same with the 911 engine fitted to the Sunbeam-Lotus a decade later, huge variation in standard spec power between engines.
I had a series one, then a new series 2 which was a fair bit smoother and a bit livelier, the series 1 also had an annoying mild flat spot at low revs that i never managed to cure. It was the same with the 911 engine fitted to the Sunbeam-Lotus a decade later, huge variation in standard spec power between engines.
The RS2000 had that 3.54 diff as well that gave it some legs in 1st-3rd.
A decent cam absolutely transformed the Pinto. Even on the stock 32/36 Weber, a 270 ish degree cam really let it fill its lungs. The 2.0 inlet ports were too big which is why they weren't as torquey as they should have been. A 270 Piper stick and a rejet was good for 15 bhp or so.
A decent cam absolutely transformed the Pinto. Even on the stock 32/36 Weber, a 270 ish degree cam really let it fill its lungs. The 2.0 inlet ports were too big which is why they weren't as torquey as they should have been. A 270 Piper stick and a rejet was good for 15 bhp or so.
s m said:
Well it quotes it as 109bhp - approx 833kg in the Motor road test - 60 in 8.7
Obviously I would expect a press car to be running as well as could be expected
However, the heavier Mk2 RS2000 with the same quoted power (over 10% more weight) was faster to 60 in both the Autocar test ( 8.6 )and the Motor test (8.5)
Admittedly they only had one gear change to 60 but they all hit around the same top speed on the banking ( around 110/112 )
When the Alfa GTV 2000 and BMW 2002tii are both hitting 100mph in a faster time than the Twincam with both having a worse power to weight ratio I can’t see that there’s much unusual with the figures.
How much power do you reckon a Twincam would normally make? What does the book give the 0-100 for the Twincam as? Much slower than the Motor figures?
By the way, that Elan did it in 7.5 seconds according to the timed figures in the test you linked
The S130 (big valve) version of the twincam as fitted to the +2S130 or +2 S130/5 would have had about 126bhp vs the slightly lower figures for the SE and the early standard twin cams. Hence the 7.5 seconds 0-60 figure. Obviously I would expect a press car to be running as well as could be expected
However, the heavier Mk2 RS2000 with the same quoted power (over 10% more weight) was faster to 60 in both the Autocar test ( 8.6 )and the Motor test (8.5)
Admittedly they only had one gear change to 60 but they all hit around the same top speed on the banking ( around 110/112 )
When the Alfa GTV 2000 and BMW 2002tii are both hitting 100mph in a faster time than the Twincam with both having a worse power to weight ratio I can’t see that there’s much unusual with the figures.
How much power do you reckon a Twincam would normally make? What does the book give the 0-100 for the Twincam as? Much slower than the Motor figures?
By the way, that Elan did it in 7.5 seconds according to the timed figures in the test you linked
Edited by s m on Monday 27th July 11:31
Touring442 said:
The RS2000 had that 3.54 diff as well that gave it some legs in 1st-3rd.
A decent cam absolutely transformed the Pinto. Even on the stock 32/36 Weber, a 270 ish degree cam really let it fill its lungs. The 2.0 inlet ports were too big which is why they weren't as torquey as they should have been. A 270 Piper stick and a rejet was good for 15 bhp or so.
Even better with a re-jetted 38DGAS from a 3.0 V6....which was the popular mod back in the day, without resorting to 2xDCOE's and all that entailed.A decent cam absolutely transformed the Pinto. Even on the stock 32/36 Weber, a 270 ish degree cam really let it fill its lungs. The 2.0 inlet ports were too big which is why they weren't as torquey as they should have been. A 270 Piper stick and a rejet was good for 15 bhp or so.
Mark A S said:
As an aside, i remember there was No difference in performance between my standard Mk 1 RS1600 and my Mates standard Mk 2 RS2000 way back then. The 2000 as you would expect edged away initially with its extra torque, then the BD came on song and caught up, it was the same in all gears.
As we know, torque is king for acceleration.
BTW, some great interesting facts and figures here
Yes, had same experience with the Mk2 RS1800 vs Mk2 RS2000 - a hair’s breadth in it although the BDA has a smidge more bhpAs we know, torque is king for acceleration.
BTW, some great interesting facts and figures here
I’m glad I had a drive in it but I would have been in the same boat - not able to afford tuning bits unlike with the Pinto ( and which I did later )
I still think 60 in 9.9 is very pessimistic for a Twincam in good Nick with 110ish bhp
Even the 100bhp Mk1 RS2000 managed 9.0 secs dead for Autocar and the same mag’s long termer RS1600 8.5.
I can well imagine a healthy Twincam getting a time in the middle
s m said:
Even the 100bhp Mk1 RS2000 managed 9.0 secs dead for Autocar and the same mag’s long termer RS1600 8.5.
I can well imagine a healthy Twincam getting a time in the middle
Back in the early 80's, before I got my Twin Cam, and still had my AVO RS2000, in reality, on the road, there was very little in it up to 60-70mph, between my RS2, and my mates late 1970 Twin Cam, and another mates 1972 iron block RS1600.I can well imagine a healthy Twincam getting a time in the middle
My RS2 was 80k miles and original, the Twink was similar miles and one engine rebuild as far as we knew to standard spec prior to his ownership, and similar for the RS16, although the BDA had different cams (BD3) but no other mods, but he rebuilt the engine himself in his shed, not a pro-build (a year or so later, I watched this RS16 show 112 at the wheels on Pete Baldwin's rolling road)
aeropilot said:
Touring442 said:
The RS2000 had that 3.54 diff as well that gave it some legs in 1st-3rd.
A decent cam absolutely transformed the Pinto. Even on the stock 32/36 Weber, a 270 ish degree cam really let it fill its lungs. The 2.0 inlet ports were too big which is why they weren't as torquey as they should have been. A 270 Piper stick and a rejet was good for 15 bhp or so.
Even better with a re-jetted 38DGAS from a 3.0 V6....which was the popular mod back in the day, without resorting to 2xDCOE's and all that entailed.A decent cam absolutely transformed the Pinto. Even on the stock 32/36 Weber, a 270 ish degree cam really let it fill its lungs. The 2.0 inlet ports were too big which is why they weren't as torquey as they should have been. A 270 Piper stick and a rejet was good for 15 bhp or so.
On another I struck lucky and got the twin 44 IDF set up as sold by the RS dealers
s m said:
On another I struck lucky and got the twin 44 IDF set up as sold by the RS dealers
My old now retired solictor, when I first knew him in the early 80's, still then had the black RS2000, he had bought new from Norman Reeves in Uxbridge, in 1979 and which he had the full Group 1 kit installed on delivery..... down draft carb kit plus Bilsteins & LSD, but not the Rocket gearset IIRC. It was still a mint pampered car when he finally sold it around 1987/8 for way less than it was worth at the time.aeropilot said:
Back in the early 80's, before I got my Twin Cam, and still had my AVO RS2000, in reality, on the road, there was very little in it up to 60-70mph, between my RS2, and my mates late 1970 Twin Cam, and another mates 1972 iron block RS1600.
My RS2 was 80k miles and original, the Twink was similar miles and one engine rebuild as far as we knew to standard spec prior to his ownership, and similar for the RS16, although the BDA had different cams (BD3) but no other mods, but he rebuilt the engine himself in his shed, not a pro-build (a year or so later, I watched this RS16 show 112 at the wheels on Pete Baldwin's rolling road)
Yes 0.3 of a second between a Twincam and Mk1 RS2000 won’t be really noticeable - it’s an excellent start vs an average oneMy RS2 was 80k miles and original, the Twink was similar miles and one engine rebuild as far as we knew to standard spec prior to his ownership, and similar for the RS16, although the BDA had different cams (BD3) but no other mods, but he rebuilt the engine himself in his shed, not a pro-build (a year or so later, I watched this RS16 show 112 at the wheels on Pete Baldwin's rolling road)
The car I always thought was a bit quick for what it was, was another friend’s Mk1 1300GT
Standard as far as we knew, apart from the exhaust and filter, it really used to go well. When another friend bought a cheap Alfa Junior 1300GT, that Escort would be all over it. We were quite surprised - the Alfa felt a bit more substantial but the Escort turn in was fantastic - it felt so light.
Would like to try the Alfa 2000GTV though. They’re pretty much the same price as a decent Escort though
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