Jaguar Land Rover goes after replica community

[MarkwG]

Touring442 said:

The other thing is simple. Everyone who buys a new Jaguar - into cars or not - knows what an E Type or Mark II looks like. It's quite likely they'll see a D Type and guess who made it.

Mark 3 Zephyr or a Sunbeam Alpine - not a chance.

That's a huge & flawed assumption: why would someone buying an E Pace have, or need to have, any knowledge of a sports car launched 60 years ago, or a saloon that's nearly as old? The myopia on this thread is astounding - the majority of people buying, or more probably leasing, a new car are interested in the car they're buying, not some relics from before their parents were born. The ambience of the brand, the sepia photos of old cars thundering off the start line at Goodwood is undoubtedly useful for building the mythology around the brand, but they won't be reeling off production numbers & registration plates, or caring whether it's a 3.8 or a 4.2. They're more likely to have seen Formula E than Le Mans. Frankly, the only thing an E, F or I Pace has in common with either of those you mention is the badge. And none of this has much to do with JLR protecting their IP.

[craigjm]

A persons idea of what a car brand is about is firmly rooted in their time reference unless they specifically go looking. I’m willing to wager that most people on this thread talking about C types, D types, XKSS etc are over 70 and have a recollection of the E-type being launched and stuff like that as young lad. Anyone under 40 will have a time frame of Jaguar that doesn’t really remember the 80s Le Mans victories and their reference point will be Ford designed Jaguars and the formula one expedition. Anyone under 30 won’t even have that. This is also a very U.K. based and possibly US based view. Speak to a Chinese person or Indian person who has lived in their home country their whole life at those different age points and some will know some stuff, some will know nothing at all.

Looking at the continuation cars that Jaguar have made it would be interesting to see what the original purchaser demographic was in comparison to the above.

[mybrainhurts]

craigjm said:

A persons idea of what a car brand is about is firmly rooted in their time reference unless they specifically go looking. I’m willing to wager that most people on this thread talking about C types, D types, XKSS etc are over 70 and have a recollection of the E-type being launched and stuff like that as young lad. Anyone under 40 will have a time frame of Jaguar that doesn’t really remember the 80s Le Mans victories and their reference point will be Ford designed Jaguars and the formula one expedition. Anyone under 30 won’t even have that. This is also a very U.K. based and possibly US based view. Speak to a Chinese person or Indian person who has lived in their home country their whole life at those different age points and some will know some stuff, some will know nothing at all.

Looking at the continuation cars that Jaguar have made it would be interesting to see what the original purchaser demographic was in comparison to the above.

You're trying to say I'm an old fart, aren't you...?

[a8hex]

craigjm said:

I’m willing to wager that most people on this thread talking about C types, D types, XKSS etc are over 70

Not me, sorry.

craigjm said:

Speak to a Chinese person or Indian person who has lived in their home country their whole life at those different age points and some will know some stuff, some will know nothing at all.

You're still missing something really basic.
Why are they in a Jaguar showroom looking at buying a Jaguar. Why a Jaguar and not say a VW or a Toyota or something locally produced? Both India and China have local manufactures, so what is the pull of Jaguar or any foreign designer brand?
You can't just turn up in the market with something like a E-Pace, charge 5 times what a local manufacturer would sell an "equivalent" for and expect customers to beat a path to your door.
The marketing is about making it an aspiration.
I work in IT, we often talk about a chain of trust, well a lot of marketing works on the basis of a chain of lust.
The video from Jaguar Taiwan with David Beckham driving Jaguars is all about this. Ford could afford to pay him to drive about in a Fiesta for a video but it wouldn't work in the same way because the target audience wouldn't believe the back story.
Selling brands is about selling an image and that needs foundations.
The end target customer might not know what a XKSS is, but they'll have been influenced in their decision to want a Jaguar by someone who was influenced by someone who was influenced... by someone who wanted an E and knew about the Cs & Ds, even if they have no clue where Le Mans is. They're in the background, they part of the foundations of the brand and the image is built on top of that.
Building a brand from scratch is hard work.
As I said before, when did you last see a Lexus Coupe on the road in the UK? I bet they were wonderfully built. But how many people aspired to own one?

[craigjm]

a8hex said:

You're still missing something really basic.
Why are they in a Jaguar showroom looking at buying a Jaguar. Why a Jaguar and not say a VW or a Toyota or something locally produced? Both India and China have local manufactures, so what is the pull of Jaguar or any foreign designer brand?

I have spent quite a chunk of my career in China and India helping western companies get a foothold in the market. I can tell you what gives the pull and it’s exactly the fact that they are a foreign brand and European companies have a lure that US companies don’t and have been better at adapting to the needs of the market. This is why we are seeing massive grilles on the latest BMWs etc. It matters not a jot that the BMW 303 had a massive grille who remembers that?! The main lure has been that the companies are simply not domestic. The Chinese, and the Indians to a lesser extent, are very status driven and it’s fairly cheap to employ a driver. This is why there are LWB versions of the XE and XF so that the owner can be driven. There is far less interest in sports cars because there just aren’t the roads for them and speeding is punished heavily. While I don’t deny that heritage has some impact it certainly is nowhere near the main driving force beyond brand recognition in these emerging markets. The Chinese car manufacturers are starting to close that gap and lure the more wealthy people in their own country. They have done it with international help though. Lynk and Co is making big inroads from nowhere but is, of course supported by Volvo. These changes are only going to be accelerated with the move over to electric and then potentially autonomous because barriers to new entrants in the market are much less.

Edited by craigjm on Wednesday 5th May 09:17

Edited by craigjm on Wednesday 5th May 09:18

[a8hex]

craigjm said:

a8hex said:

You're still missing something really basic.
Why are they in a Jaguar showroom looking at buying a Jaguar. Why a Jaguar and not say a VW or a Toyota or something locally produced? Both India and China have local manufactures, so what is the pull of Jaguar or any foreign designer brand?

I have spent quite a chunk of my career in China and India helping western companies get a foothold in the market. I can tell you what gives the pull and it’s exactly the fact that they are a foreign brand and European companies have a lure that US companies don’t ...

But being European isn't enough is it, it's not every European brand that can pull off the trick, you need to be perceived as being a luxury brand/designer label. And that requires traction, it has to be built on something.

The Europe/US thing isn't new, the US luxury car brands, Duesenberg, Cord et al. all died before the war as a result of the crash. So in the post war US market the European imports were seen as being the desirable luxury brands.

[craigjm]

a8hex said:

craigjm said:

a8hex said:

You're still missing something really basic.
Why are they in a Jaguar showroom looking at buying a Jaguar. Why a Jaguar and not say a VW or a Toyota or something locally produced? Both India and China have local manufactures, so what is the pull of Jaguar or any foreign designer brand?

I have spent quite a chunk of my career in China and India helping western companies get a foothold in the market. I can tell you what gives the pull and it’s exactly the fact that they are a foreign brand and European companies have a lure that US companies don’t ...

But being European isn't enough is it, it's not every European brand that can pull off the trick, you need to be perceived as being a luxury brand/designer label. And that requires traction, it has to be built on something.

The Europe/US thing isn't new, the US luxury car brands, Duesenberg, Cord et al. all died before the war as a result of the crash. So in the post war US market the European imports were seen as being the desirable luxury brands.

You don’t need to be luxury to make it. What you need to do is appeal to local tastes in addition to your country of origin. I helped PSA as was make its first moves into the region and they have been very successful without that luxury veneer by producing products they don’t make for the rest of the world. I also helped KFC make a success where McDonalds failed. The meals were tweaked to be more like “KFC chicken in Chinese meal” rather than how the US eats it. McDonalds didn’t do that and have bombed because dairy generally isn’t on the menu in China so cheese and milkshakes didn’t work. A lesson learnt they focused on when they expanded into India

[Touring442]

MarkwG said:

That's a huge & flawed assumption: why would someone buying an E Pace have, or need to have, any knowledge of a sports car launched 60 years ago, or a saloon that's nearly as old? The myopia on this thread is astounding - the majority of people buying, or more probably leasing, a new car are interested in the car they're buying, not some relics from before their parents were born. The ambience of the brand, the sepia photos of old cars thundering off the start line at Goodwood is undoubtedly useful for building the mythology around the brand, but they won't be reeling off production numbers & registration plates, or caring whether it's a 3.8 or a 4.2. They're more likely to have seen Formula E than Le Mans. Frankly, the only thing an E, F or I Pace has in common with either of those you mention is the badge. And none of this has much to do with JLR protecting their IP.

[MarkwG]

Touring442 said:

[lowdrag]

I come back to a question that no one has really replied to, and it is this:-

Why, if Jaguar want replicas to be outlawed, did they pick on an elderly family in Sweden to pursue this case? OK, I can already see you at your keyboards, but the second part of the question is why, given the status quo, replica Jaguars are still being made virtually all over the world, and not one company has received a "cease and desist" letter.

I know of replicas still being built in the UK, and all over the world. Was this a toothless exercise by Jaguar? Indeed, from what I hear did the main board even know it was happening? I am not concerned with rights; Jaguar has the right. But, why, if they are not pursuing their rights worldwide what the hell did they do this for? That is the nub of the question.

[craigjm]

They probably are going to pursue it worldwide and may have put the wheels in motion. Just because people haven’t heard of any action doesn’t mean it isn’t there . Waiting for the court case to show they are taking action is like denying your car has any rust until it bursts through the panel.

Most businesses would go after the weakest target first and they have done that and won. Just that win will be enough to make some others think twice. You then move on to the next smallest meal and keep going.

I think if you just have a replica then don’t worry but as I’ve said before on here if your “business” however small and even if it’s a one man band in his shed, makes any money out of anything that can be seen as JLR intellectual property, image, history or anything else that goes beyond repairing and restoring cars then someday, it may not be tomorrow, you will get a cease a desist letter. If you get one then don’t ignore it, don’t right an animal that’s bigger than you and do exactly what is asked would be my advice. Putting up a fight, trying to cling on to a business or flat refusal will open up a world of pain.

[MarkwG]

Lowdrag said:

I come back to a question that no one has really replied to, and it is this:-

Why, if Jaguar want replicas to be outlawed, did they pick on an elderly family in Sweden to pursue this case? OK, I can already see you at your keyboards, but the second part of the question is why, given the status quo, replica Jaguars are still being made virtually all over the world, and not one company has received a "cease and desist" letter.

I know of replicas still being built in the UK, and all over the world. Was this a toothless exercise by Jaguar? Indeed, from what I hear did the main board even know it was happening? I am not concerned with rights; Jaguar has the right. But, why, if they are not pursuing their rights worldwide what the hell did they do this for? That is the nub of the question.

I'm fairly sure we have touched on that previously: because the Swedish couple initially decided they were building for personal use, & had help & assistance from JLR for that, but then decided they wanted to build for sale, & that breached the agreement they had with JLR; JLR felt the recourse open to them was the action they subsequently took. Perhaps JLR felt that allowing an unauthorised replica to be sold badged as a Jaguar in Sweden left them open to legal action should one of those cars be involved in an accident - perhaps by allowing the replicas to be sold, they vicariously adopt the accountability for it - I'm surmising, I have no idea, that's up to them. I have no idea how the replica world works in Scandinavia, or even if there is one. We can all come up with theories, the reality is, it's between JLR & their legal team.

That one case is between those two parties & applies in one country, it sets no precedence in other jurisdictions; if JLR want to pursue other parties elsewhere, they may do so, they may not want to, they may already be doing so, they may feel they do not have a strong enough case, they may have come to an agreement with those parties, or they may have an historic agreement with them, already. It's really only the business of JLR & those other parties, there's no reason for us to know whether they've sent cease & desist orders to anyone or for it to be in the public domain.

[craigjm]

MarkwG said:

It's really only the business of JLR & those other parties, there's no reason for us to know whether they've sent cease & desist orders to anyone or for it to be in the public domain.

I think some people may want to know because deep down they know their activities deserve one and they are trying to reassure themselves that one day the knock at the door wont be for them

[MKnight702]

Touring442 said:

Indeed. It's heritage and it sells cars. Porsche do it best.

No, heritage is what Caterham peddle, Porsche have actually developed new vehicles. (And I say that as a 360R owner).

[MarkwG]

craigjm said:

MarkwG said:

It's really only the business of JLR & those other parties, there's no reason for us to know whether they've sent cease & desist orders to anyone or for it to be in the public domain.

I think some people may want to know because deep down they know their activities deserve one and they are trying to reassure themselves that one day the knock at the door wont be for them

It does make you wonder, doesn't it?

[lowdrag]

craigjm said:

MarkwG said:

It's really only the business of JLR & those other parties, there's no reason for us to know whether they've sent cease & desist orders to anyone or for it to be in the public domain.

I think some people may want to know because deep down they know their activities deserve one and they are trying to reassure themselves that one day the knock at the door wont be for them

How illogical. There are companies making Jaguar replicas all over the world. One famous replica builder in the UK has had no correspondence from Jaguar either. They are far bigger than this elderly couple, yet you agree with Jaguar taking on an elderly couple rather than attacking perhaps the root of the problem. You agree that cutting off a twig is better than attacking the root and branch and you blindly say that this is their prerogative. If you want to cut out the problem, go for the jugular, not the little finger. They have been spiteful and vindictive, and are not following up with actions against others. Indeed, I am now wondering if they will actually enforce the judgement, even if they win the appeal. I am in contact with many people at the moment all over the world, and the Magnussons are the only ones being pursued. Or not; we shall see.

[Touring442]

ruhall said:

With respect, this just dates you though.

I started driving in the mid-70s

Decades before me then.

[Touring442]

MKnight702 said:

No, heritage is what Caterham peddle

Who?

Seriously; Porsche realised 30 years ago that the 911 was a keeper and the water cooled stuff was not. That's why the Boxster looks like a 911 and most other Porsches have 911 styling cues, and it's why you can buy a new Targa with stainless roll hoops and retro side stripes. Heritage sells. That's why the XF had styling cues from the first XJ6, and it worked.

Edited by Touring442 on Wednesday 5th May 22:15

[MarkwG]

lowdrag said:

craigjm said:

MarkwG said:

It's really only the business of JLR & those other parties, there's no reason for us to know whether they've sent cease & desist orders to anyone or for it to be in the public domain.

I think some people may want to know because deep down they know their activities deserve one and they are trying to reassure themselves that one day the knock at the door wont be for them

How illogical. There are companies making Jaguar replicas all over the world. One famous replica builder in the UK has had no correspondence from Jaguar either. They are far bigger than this elderly couple, yet you agree with Jaguar taking on an elderly couple rather than attacking perhaps the root of the problem. You agree that cutting off a twig is better than attacking the root and branch and you blindly say that this is their prerogative. If you want to cut out the problem, go for the jugular, not the little finger. They have been spiteful and vindictive, and are not following up with actions against others. Indeed, I am now wondering if they will actually enforce the judgement, even if they win the appeal. I am in contact with many people at the moment all over the world, and the Magnussons are the only ones being pursued. Or not; we shall see.

What is illogical? That there are other companies potentially breaking the law, & as far as you know, no action has been taken? That doesn't mean it won't be, or that it hasn't already happened but you've not been advised. Maybe those companies aren't that keen on having their stories on internet forums. Perhaps they've got authority already, or are working on it, & would rather keep that information to themselves. You seem to think you have the inside track: maybe you're not as close as you think.

What has the protagonists age got to do with anything? There's nothing in any copyright legislation I've seen anywhere that says pensioners are excluded from it. I don't agree or disagree with JLRs actions, I understand it: they are the guardians of Jaguars heritage, so they're guarding it. How they choose to manage that is quite clearly their prerogative.

You're now putting words in my/Craigjms mouths - Jaguar said, not myself & Craig - "we want to allay any fears amongst the network of enthusiasts that Jaguar Land Rover might pursue individual owners of replica Jaguars and insist upon their destruction. This is not true. We will however, take action to stop businesses using our Intellectual Property illegally for their own profit, as in this case." - so they haven't said they'll deal with the twig, not the root & branch, as you've put it, they've said that will take action against businesses using their IP illegally, but everyone else can rest easy - as is their prerogative, quite clearly. It's really quite simple: make one for your own use & they'll live with that; turn it into a business, trading on their copyright & trademark, & they'll seek redress through the courts, if necessary. Same as any company, big or small.

You seem to be implying those companies still making replicas are acting illegally & intend to continue to do so - are they happy with you saying that? Is it not illogical to be siding with those that break the law, rather than those seeking to uphold it?

[craigjm]

If anyone has received a cease and desist they won’t tell you unless they are stupid. Any response to anyone other than the party who issued the demand would be admissible in court and you may as well just sink your own boat before the case starts. The first thing your lawyer will say to you is to not discuss it with anyone.